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InterReligious Dialogue
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by The_Rock

If they are the same source, one has to necessarily conclude that the religions should be the same.

We have to conclude that the source is different

For the reasons I have already provided it is my contention that whilst Muslims desire to worship the God of the Old Testament, they do not.

The central tenets of islam are sufficiently removed from the Bible that we can conclude that either Muhammad was inspired by a different entity or he wasnt inspired at all.

If we are to answer that question then we need to look into the practices of the religions, why certain practices exist and why they are different.



First, Judaism is a religion for a particular ethnic group, the Jews, the chosen people. Islam is for all mankind.

We have once touched on this, tenets but it was on faith, not Islam. The tenets of Islam is a new thing, meaning it only came at the time of Prophet Muhammad.

As for the tenets of faith, you will find that it is relevant even to your faith. Let me list them for you again. Like us, you must also have faith in these or you cannot call yourself a believer (Mukmin)

1. God
2. Judgement day
3. Prophets
4. Revelations
5. Angels
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2018 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Traveller



If we do that, taking in only faith as the fruit, then Christianity is not as good a tree as Islam.



Christianity is losing faith. There are just too many Christians on Pascal's wager.





Freedom gives most people choice. Its easier in may ways to live life as a non religious person because there are no constraints to how one wishes to lead their life so long as it fits within what is lawful in the eyes of the state. Christianity does not demand that those who come to realise they no longer believe are put to death.
There are no Christian religious police in the West to knock on the doors of suspected apostates to tyrannically subject them to 'reconditioning' or worse death. For indeed such hostility and fear of exposure and ostracization predicates how a society behaves openly. On the surface the vast majority would evoke and demonstrate piety despite what their private conscience believes.

Islam (IMO) has shaped much of the Muslim world through fear. Like the North Korean masses who gather in their hundreds of thousands, when they are forced to adulate their 'Great Leader' or face suspicion of decent and the horrors that befall that. How many of those hundreds of thousands of smiling and 'adoring' faces have gritted teeth behind those lips..


To say Christianity is 'loosing faith' is because there is openness about it without risk.

Not so with Islam hence many ex-Muslims remain silent and keep their lack of faith in Islam secret as well as what new faith they have adopted .




Edited by Damo808 - 08 March 2018 at 12:42pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by The_Rock

If they are the same source, one has to necessarily conclude that the religions should be the same.

We have to conclude that the source is different

For the reasons I have already provided it is my contention that whilst Muslims desire to worship the God of the Old Testament, they do not.

The central tenets of islam are sufficiently removed from the Bible that we can conclude that either Muhammad was inspired by a different entity or he wasnt inspired at all.

If we are to answer that question then we need to look into the practices of the religions, why certain practices exist and why they are different.



First, Judaism is a religion for a particular ethnic group, the Jews, the chosen people. Islam is for all mankind.

We have once touched on this, tenets but it was on faith, not Islam. The tenets of Islam is a new thing, meaning it only came at the time of Prophet Muhammad.



You are dead wrong about Judaism, Traveller.  Judaism is a religion and way of life open to all mankind - it just takes longer to "join", i.e. study. study. study.
 
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2018 at 4:43pm
It's important to consider religious axioms and the cause and effect of religious ideologies.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism start from 3 very different axioms.

What is the purpose of life for the Muslim, the Jew and the Christian?

The Muslim lives to pass the test that is life and depends on the mercy of God to pass this test, with the reward being a next existence of pleasures.

The Christian is exhorted to serve his fellow man, not to worry too much about his many sins because Jesus paid for them.
The reward is a life with Jesus in eternity, the kingdom of God.

The Jew lives life in accordance with the mitzvah because that is what God revealed to his ancestors. There's no real mention of a heaven or hell. It's all about making the here and now better by living in accordance with the laws.

IMHO only Christianity is a teaching of how best to live. And that is, to live a life devoted to the service of others.

Edited by The_Rock - 08 March 2018 at 4:44pm
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2018 at 12:58am
Originally posted by Damo808


Islam (IMO) has shaped much of the Muslim world through fear.


The only fear I know of that shaped the Muslim world is fear of God.

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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Corinna

You are dead wrong about Judaism, Traveller.  Judaism is a religion and way of life open to all mankind - it just takes longer to "join", i.e. study. study. study.  


I'm not sure of Judaism today propagate their religion. That's for another topic.

But the children of Israel were the chosen people and all their prophets were sent to guide them only. Ergo, all the commandments were specific to them only. Example, everybody else can eat shellfish except the children of Israel.

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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:27am
Originally posted by The_Rock

It's important to consider religious axioms and the cause and effect of religious ideologies.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism start from 3 very different axioms.

What is the purpose of life for the Muslim, the Jew and the Christian?

The Muslim lives to pass the test that is life and depends on the mercy of God to pass this test, with the reward being a next existence of pleasures.

The Christian is exhorted to serve his fellow man, not to worry too much about his many sins because Jesus paid for them.
The reward is a life with Jesus in eternity, the kingdom of God.

The Jew lives life in accordance with the mitzvah because that is what God revealed to his ancestors. There's no real mention of a heaven or hell. It's all about making the here and now better by living in accordance with the laws.

IMHO only Christianity is a teaching of how best to live. And that is, to live a life devoted to the service of others.


Ask Brother Waheed here, coz he is an imam, of the verse from the Quran that he must read at the end of the sermon on Friday.

It is a clear commandment. And it is on how to, what you would call "serve others". It is a commandment that is drummed into us every week. Imagine that.


BEHOLD, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards [one's] fellowmen; and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy; [and] He exhorts you [repeatedly] so that you might bear [all this] in mind.
(16:90)

Yes, every Friday the imam will read that verse out loud to us. Ask Bro Waheed.

Edited by Traveller - 09 March 2018 at 1:29am
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2018 at 8:02am
Yes I'm sure there are elements of requiring service in Islam, just as they are present in Judaism.

But essentially these faiths are primarily concerned with one's own salvation, a selfish approach to getting ones reward.

The idea that your life only has purpose in the service of others is uniquely Christian.

Edited by The_Rock - 09 March 2018 at 12:21pm
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

You are dead wrong about Judaism, Traveller.  Judaism is a religion and way of life open to all mankind - it just takes longer to "join", i.e. study. study. study.  


I'm not sure of Judaism today propagate their religion. That's for another topic.

But the children of Israel were the chosen people and all their prophets were sent to guide them only. Ergo, all the commandments were specific to them only. Example, everybody else can eat shellfish except the children of Israel.



How many of the 613 commandments (guides for living) do you  follow, Traveller?  No normal person now, then or in the future can fulfill all 613 and stay sane.  They aren't meant as a judgement of  man's behavior for a heaven or hell situation.  That is not the focus of living Jewishly.  Helping all of mankind is the focus which we did, do and will continue to do. 

Shellfish (and pork) had directly to do with a lack of refrigeration and food inspectors in the time and place when those 613 guides were given to mankind (all of mankind with hardheaded Jews as an example or experimental group per se). 

Being Jewish is not a race, it was a tribe.  They were learning to deal with what became tribal laws and directions for survival when those commandments were given to mankind, all of mankind as it was known at the time.  There was much rivalry among the tribes during that age of man and that includes Arab tribes, many of whom rejected following any, much less all of the 613 commandments.

Like I said earlier, study, study, study .. esp Ancient Middle Eastern history.  What is scribed in Torah and Tanakh are the history of those early, hardheaded Jews in their learning process of what G-d provided to mankind.  If they could learn, anybody can.

BTW, we allow alcohol in moderation.  Why don't Muslims? 


Edited by Corinna - 09 March 2018 at 1:50pm
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2018 at 12:11am
Originally posted by Corinna

How many of the 613 commandments (guides for living) do you  follow, Traveller?  No normal person now, then or in the future can fulfill all 613 and stay sane.  They aren't meant as a judgement of  man's behavior for a heaven or hell situation.  That is not the focus of living Jewishly.  Helping all of mankind is the focus which we did, do and will continue to do.  Shellfish (and pork) had directly to do with a lack of refrigeration and food inspectors in the time and place when those 613 guides were given to mankind (all of mankind with hardheaded Jews as an example or experimental group per se).  Being Jewish is not a race, it was a tribe.  They were learning to deal with what became tribal laws and directions for survival when those commandments were given to mankind, all of mankind as it was known at the time.  There was much rivalry among the tribes during that age of man and that includes Arab tribes, many of whom rejected following any, much less all of the 613 commandments.Like I said earlier, study, study, study .. esp Ancient Middle Eastern history.  What is scribed in Torah and Tanakh are the history of those early, hardheaded Jews in their learning process of what G-d provided to mankind.  If they could learn, anybody can. BTW, we allow alcohol in moderation.  Why don't Muslims? 


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.

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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2018 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

How many of the 613 commandments (guides for living) do you  follow, Traveller?  No normal person now, then or in the future can fulfill all 613 and stay sane.  They aren't meant as a judgement of  man's behavior for a heaven or hell situation.  That is not the focus of living Jewishly.  Helping all of mankind is the focus which we did, do and will continue to do.  Shellfish (and pork) had directly to do with a lack of refrigeration and food inspectors in the time and place when those 613 guides were given to mankind (all of mankind with hardheaded Jews as an example or experimental group per se).  Being Jewish is not a race, it was a tribe.  They were learning to deal with what became tribal laws and directions for survival when those commandments were given to mankind, all of mankind as it was known at the time.  There was much rivalry among the tribes during that age of man and that includes Arab tribes, many of whom rejected following any, much less all of the 613 commandments.Like I said earlier, study, study, study .. esp Ancient Middle Eastern history.  What is scribed in Torah and Tanakh are the history of those early, hardheaded Jews in their learning process of what G-d provided to mankind.  If they could learn, anybody can. BTW, we allow alcohol in moderation.  Why don't Muslims? 


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.



Well, that is wrong but it makes a good story that the uneducated, unenlightened might believe.
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2018 at 12:24am
Originally posted by Corinna


Originally posted by Traveller


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.

Well, that is wrong but it makes a good story that the uneducated, unenlightened might believe.


Ok. You're free to believe your version.

Reading what the Messiah said about them in the Gospels, it's easier to believe my version.

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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2018 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna


Originally posted by Traveller


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.

Well, that is wrong but it makes a good story that the uneducated, unenlightened might believe.


Ok. You're free to believe your version.

Reading what the Messiah said about them in the Gospels, it's easier to believe my version.



Your "messiah" didn't know, much less honor, Jewish ethnics, religious beliefs or history so don't quote it as such.  Pity.

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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2018 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Corinna

Your "messiah" didn't know, much less honor, Jewish ethnics, religious beliefs or history so don't quote it as such.  Pity.


It's The Messiah, the one the Jews prayed for and still praying for till today.
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