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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2018 at 3:11am
Originally posted by The_Rock

I think there is a complex relationship between Jesus and judaism.

On the one hand clearly appealed to a jewish audience.

But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.

They wanted Simon bar Kokhba.

Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven. To this day, its something that Jews simply don't understand.


Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof - Matthew 21

Jesus was referring to the earthly kingdom of God.

You said, "But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.". That is not it. Who knows better what the Jews need? The Jews or God? The rejection of the Messiah clearly shows the Jews had no faith in God. They wanted a glamorous messiah, one that will enter the city on a chariot ala Caesar. Instead, God sent Jesus into the city on a donkey. They could not believe such a man can bring back the glory to the Jews. They had no faith in God.

That is what it is all about isn't it Rock? Faith.


In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Corinna


See, you know nothing about Judaism. Judaism is ALL about serving mankind, making life better for all of mankind which is, in essence, serving G-d.


Agreed


That is why we have no heaven/hell concept with all the threats your people have.


Agreed


If we serve mankind, we enter whatever an afterlife may be. We will know what it is if and when we get there. Judaism 101


Agreed

The difference is that judaism is concerned with the person serving/pleasing God by adhering to a set of laws (laws in a book) prima facie because that is what is revealed.

Whereas Christianity is concerned with the person serving /pleasing God by serving man with the (laws of the heart) because that is what is revealed in the nature of Christ.

It is open to interpretation that jewish law is meant to serve mankind. We think that is the purpose of the law, but the nature of the revelation is sufficient unto itself without attributing the benefit of serving mankind.

In christianity the very essence is serving mankind, the law was meant to serve man and not the other way around. The law is not sufficient unto itself, although to this day jews will argue that the law is sufficient unto itself, that the intention behind the law is the wisdom of God and the domain of God, the sages can expound on that wisdom, but it isnt necessary to actually understand it, it is sufficient to simply follow the law.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.

Why the law?

What is it's purpose in the Islamic view? Does it play a similar role as the law in Judaism?

If not, then why?


There are two main law 'types' in Judaism, one of which carried over into Islam.

In Judaism, there are the sacrificial laws (which the NT claims was done away with), and then there were the laws of the nation such as how to deal with slaves, divorces, etc. - which seems to have carried over to Islam for the most part. The sacrificial laws were only for the Jews, not for us.


That's not how either jews or christians see it.

I will speak for christians, that we dont see it that way.

The jewess can answer for the jews.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Traveller


Jesus was referring to the earthly kingdom of God.


Yes indeed. But you should ponder this then -
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."


You said, "But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.". That is not it. Who knows better what the Jews need? The Jews or God? The rejection of the Messiah clearly shows the Jews had no faith in God. They wanted a glamorous messiah, one that will enter the city on a chariot ala Caesar. Instead, God sent Jesus into the city on a donkey. They could not believe such a man can bring back the glory to the Jews. They had no faith in God.

That is what it is all about isn't it Rock? Faith.


No, they had plenty of faith, the kingdom of God is the body of believers, the christian ummah, a nation of peace. It is not a political entity, where God reigns no man can reign.

Jews were warned to not take a king by God, He told them that things would go badly if they were to take on a king.

It led to much destruction. Judges served them better.

Where God rules there can be no Khalifah.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2018 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by The_Rock

I think there is a complex relationship between Jesus and judaism.

On the one hand clearly appealed to a jewish audience.

But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.

They wanted Simon bar Kokhba.

Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven. To this day, its something that Jews simply don't understand.


Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof - Matthew 21

Jesus was referring to the earthly kingdom of God.

You said, "But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.". That is not it. Who knows better what the Jews need? The Jews or God? The rejection of the Messiah clearly shows the Jews had no faith in God. They wanted a glamorous messiah, one that will enter the city on a chariot ala Caesar. Instead, God sent Jesus into the city on a donkey. They could not believe such a man can bring back the glory to the Jews. They had no faith in God.

That is what it is all about isn't it Rock? Faith.


The New Testament has nothing to do with Jews.  The Jews in those stories are just characters in a story made up to satisfy those who wrote it, read it and believe it.

The Jewish mashiah is a leader be it king, homeless person, a soldier, chef, rabbi or whatever comes at the time he/she/it is destined to come.  Really quoting NT about Jews, Judaism and Jewish laws and traditions is way off the track.  We, our ethnicity, religion, laws, commands, traditions, etc. are contained ONLY in Torah and Tanakh and much was discussed thoroughly over the centuries and recorded in Talmud.

I will say this again:  You must study Jewish writings to know about Jews, our religion, our traditions, history, ethnicity, mistakes, wars, helping the world, etc.  It is thoroughly discussed there, in Talmud and in many commentaries.  Otherwise you are in a world of assumptions, you are just playing with stories, suppositions, assimilations, lies, half-truths, etc.  and it is not right to do that to something that is so well documented.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2018 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by The_Rock



The difference is that judaism is concerned with the person serving/pleasing God by adhering to a set of laws (laws in a book) prima facie because that is what is revealed.

Whereas Christianity is concerned with the person serving /pleasing God by serving man with the (laws of the heart) because that is what is revealed in the nature of Christ.

It is open to interpretation that jewish law is meant to serve mankind. We think that is the purpose of the law, but the nature of the revelation is sufficient unto itself without attributing the benefit of serving mankind.

In christianity the very essence is serving mankind, the law was meant to serve man and not the other way around. The law is not sufficient unto itself, although to this day jews will argue that the law is sufficient unto itself, that the intention behind the law is the wisdom of God and the domain of God, the sages can expound on that wisdom, but it isnt necessary to actually understand it, it is sufficient to simply follow the law.


One thing, Rock, those things you call "laws" are actually 613 commandments.  No person can keep all 613 and remain sane.  G-d does not expect humankind to be perfect in any way, shape or form.  We do the best we can and go forward with life as best we can.  No one is keeping score.  Again there is a big difference between a law and a command, at least in Judaism there is.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 20 March 2018 at 1:40pm
You can call them what you want.

The point I'm making is that those commandments are observed because that is what is revealed.

Their intent is a secondary consideration, if at all it is a consideration.

Where as for the Christian the service of mankind is the commandment, and how we achieve this is guided by scripture.

So if it served man to only eat kosher food, then tomorrow such a thing would be binding on the christian.

For us Jesus is the way to live. A life of service, a light to the world and we obey the commandments where they further that purpose.
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:51am
Originally posted by The_Rock

You can call them what you want.  I call them what they are.  Big difference.

The point I'm making is that those commandments are observed because that is what is revealed.  Yes, they are - all 613, not just 10 picked to observe.

Their intent is a secondary consideration, if at all it is a consideration.  Hummm, I would say the intent and benefit of all 613 commandments is top consideration as they guide humankind in how to live according to the One who gave them to mankind. 

Where as for the Christian the service of mankind is the commandment, and how we achieve this is guided by scripture.  Odd you say this because that is the way it is seen and observed in Judaism.  It is not just a Christian thing.

So if it served man to only eat kosher food, then tomorrow such a thing would be binding on the christian.  It would only be binding on Christians if they decided to observe that commandment according to the time, place and reasons given in history.

For us Jesus is the way to live. A life of service, a light to the world and we obey the commandments where they further that purpose.
  So?  He supposedly was an 'observant Jew' and, as such, would have been obedient to the 613 commandments, not just a cherry picked 10 or 12 commandments.  Why is his example not followed in Christianity?

BTW, just got back from Israel.  Searched all over for the Easter Bunny and did not find him/her/it.  Had a ton of wonderful Bedouin, Arab, Jewish, Chinese, Italian foods!!!  Brought home home grown figs and dates for my Arab Muslim friends.  Yes, they are Kosher.  LOL 
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2018 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Corinna

So?  He supposedly was an 'observant Jew' and, as such, would have been obedient to the 613 commandments, not just a cherry picked 10 or 12 commandments.  Why is his example not followed in Christianity?
 


It was not cherry-picking, Corinna

You may find the answer to your question in the Qur'an, as God, by His Mercy, reduced some of the restrictions imposed on the Jews in the past when He sent Jesus, peace be upon him, to guide the Lost Sheep of Israel.

This is the Qur'anic verse, where Jesus speaks to the Jews saying:

"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you.

And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."


https://quran.com/3/50

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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2018 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Originally posted by Corinna

So?  He supposedly was an 'observant Jew' and, as such, would have been obedient to the 613 commandments, not just a cherry picked 10 or 12 commandments.  Why is his example not followed in Christianity?
 


It was not cherry-picking, Corinna

You may find the answer to your question in the Qur'an, as God, by His Mercy, reduced some of the restrictions imposed on the Jews in the past when He sent Jesus, peace be upon him, to guide the Lost Sheep of Israel.

This is the Qur'anic verse, where Jesus speaks to the Jews saying:

"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you.

And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."


https://quran.com/3/50



Yes, it is cherry picking. 

If this so-called Jesus person was truly a observant Jew, he would not have turned his back on preceding "laws" that were changed by a fictitious (to him/them) god figure.  "Jesus" did not have permission to do that nor did anyone else.   Historical facts cannot be changed by man and certainly not HaShem's commandments.  That "man" has done such makes this law change even more suspicious. 

Sorry, I can't agree with you on this item.  It is so sacrilegious, surely you, as a religious person, sees that. 
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2018 at 1:57pm

Ponder this ....

"The man who regards life as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life."

--- Albert Einstein


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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2018 at 5:01pm
Sister Corrina, Divine Law changed in some aspects and evolved from the time of Adam and Noah to the time of Abraham and Moses

Do you agree with that?



Edited by Al-Cordoby - 05 April 2018 at 1:47am
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2018 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.

Why the law?

What is it's purpose in the Islamic view? Does it play a similar role as the law in Judaism?

If not, then why?


There are two main law 'types' in Judaism, one of which carried over into Islam.

In Judaism, there are the sacrificial laws (which the NT claims was done away with), and then there were the laws of the nation such as how to deal with slaves, divorces, etc. - which seems to have carried over to Islam for the most part. The sacrificial laws were only for the Jews, not for us.


That's not how either jews or christians see it.

I will speak for christians, that we dont see it that way.

The jewess can answer for the jews.


You guys can see it however way you guys want, but I'm saying that you can separate the laws into two, one is sacrificial and the others are more social. Muslims and Jews share a lot in common when it comes to the social based laws, but we don't have the sacrificial laws Moses (as) brought to the Jews.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Corinna  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Corinna Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2018 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Sister Corrina, Divine Law changed in some aspects and evolved from the time of Adam and Noah to the time of Abraham and Moses

Do you agree with that?



No, I  don't. 

The "laws" under discussion here are the ones given to Moses by HaShem, all 613 of them.  That was after Adom's and Noah's time. BTW, do not forget about the Noahide laws, that are still used today.
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