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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2018 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

And simply saying this is not Islam isn't the solution.

There are underpinnings of Islamic thought driving this behavior.

That too needs to be acknowledged.

Rape is Haram. Yes it is. The study found these men to be more religious than the average Muslim.

For these men who will not touch Haram meat or alcohol this behavior is halal.

How is that possible?

Because in their convoluted minds these girls are ma malakat aymanukum.

In one account the girl a surivivor of the Rotherham gang said that the men would recite the Quran to the women every evening.

Here is part of the account

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-a8261831.html


Religious indoctrination is a big part of the process of getting young men involved in grooming gang crime. Religious ideas about purity, virginity, modesty and obedience are taken to the extreme until horrific abuse becomes the norm. It was taught to me as a concept of ďotheringĒ.

ďMuslim girls are good and pure because they dress modestly, covering down to their ankles and wrists, and covering their crotch area. They stay virgins until marriage. They are our girls.

"White girls and non-Muslim girls are bad because you dress like edits. You show the curves of your bodies (showing the gap between your thighs means youíre asking for it) and therefore youíre immoral. White girls sleep with hundreds of men. You are the other girls. You are worthless and you deserve to be gang-raped.Ē

This hateful religious hypocrisy strikes people to their very core. But itís far from unique. My main perpetrator quoted scriptures from the Quran to me as he beat me. However, almost identical scriptures (about the stoning to death of virgins who donít scream when they are raped) can also be found in the Bible.

The problem isnít the text itself; itís how itís fundamentally interpreted. In fact, there are many cases of Bible quotes being used to justify terrible human injustices, like the enslavement of people from Africa, antisemitism and violence towards LGBT+ people.

All the major world religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism, have also at some time been associated with extreme human rights abuses against men, women and children.

I experienced horrific, religiously sanctioned sexual violence and torture Ė so I definitely believe that we need to be aware of religious extremism as something potentially harmful, so that we can protect people from it.


I watched a video interview, where the girls were constantly told that they should convert and marry their captors to be truly "free" and earn jannah for themselves. All the time, these men were raping and beating them.

And the muslim community simply ignored this ...



And simply saying this is not Islam isn't the solution.

There are underpinnings of Islamic thought driving this behavior.


I'll address this better below, but anyone can make justifications for their actions, that does not mean that their excuses are justified.


Rape is Haram. Yes it is. The study found these men to be more religious than the average Muslim.

For these men who will not touch Haram meat or alcohol this behavior is halal


The example you have given above are cultural examples. Even the Non praying Pakistani, for example, will not touch haram meat nor drink alcohol.

Let me use this example, Americans do not eat dogs or cats. It is repugnant because the culture finds it repugnant. This is a  universal, by and large, among Americans, regardless of religion or race.

Thus, an American Criminal and An America non-criminal share this in common.

Because in their convoluted minds these girls are ma malakat aymanukum.

In one account the girl a surivivor of the Rotherham gang said that the men would recite the Quran to the women every evening.

Here is part of the account


Again, that does not mean that such persons and their actions represent Islam and Muslims as a whole.

I have read KKK and other white power websites and find Bible quotes and religious justifications for their views, yet we [rightly] reject that such views/actions represents Christianity.

Yes, people make justifications, that does not mean that the excuses they have given [to others or to themselves] is correct.

I watched a video interview, where the girls were constantly told that they should convert and marry their captors to be truly "free" and earn jannah for themselves. All the time, these men were raping and beating them.

And the muslim community simply ignored this .


If that is true, those who did these things should be brought to task.

However, I don't think it's fair to blame 'The Muslim community" anymore than we blame "The White community" for the wrong actions done by members of that community.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2018 at 5:26pm
I'm blaming the ideology.

I'm blaming the Muslim community for not recognizing the danger and refusing to own it.

For not trying to address the issues with at least some interpretations of the deen.

For not disavowing religiously sanctioned violence in the absence of a khilafat.

The military option ended for the ideology ended with the collapse of the Khilafat.

It's time to acknowledge that declaration of jihad is illegitimate without a caliph.

These criminals are declaring jihad... Because they don't understand that it's not an individual option but a state declaration.

And without a state, there can be no jihad.

And one can argue that past the rashidun Khilafat all jihad was illegitimate.

Edited by The_Rock - 14 April 2018 at 5:34pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2018 at 10:09pm

Originally posted by Damo808


Waheed.. The vast majority of Muslim men in the UK are of Pakistani heritage.

The sad reality is that in the case of on-street gang grooming, there is an over-representation of Pakistani men.
Until British Pakistanis accept that this is a problem for our community we will not be able to eradicate this evil. Burying our head in the sand as the usual response is not good enough. This is not a white conspiracy dreamt up by the far right, or victimisation of the Pakistani community, as some claim......

Do you agree ?

Also do you agree, now that the german gov't have declared no go zones do infact exist, that that is indeed the case in some inner cities of Europe ?   




Originally posted by waheed1

Gangs exist that do crimes, be it rape, robbery or another crime.


I don't know of any situation of any gang from any particular section of society anywhere in which the grooming/and rape of young girls and non members of that society and of a particular race is so out of control it risks major societal social breakdown.




Originally posted by waheed1

There is an assumption that being Muslim/pakistani creates the foundation for doing this sort of thing, and that is a false assumption.


Where has that said assumption been found in the aforementioned statement Al ?

I simply asked it you agreed with it ?
If you don't simply say i don't and because..
Don't tell me what i'm presuming.


Originally posted by waheed1

Minorities are often over represented in crimes [and thus, in the criminal justice system] and while there are reasons for that, advocating that their religion or culture is responsible for that, that is the issue I am strongly debating.


Can you tell me in your opinion reasons for why this phenomenon in the UK happened (is happening) Waheed ? If you read testimony from some of the (now) women victims you would understand that indeed many of the perpetrators were practicing Muslims and citing islam as they dehumanized these girls. There is what you say Waheed, and there is what society is actually learning.


P.S : No go zones not up for discussion then. OK.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2018 at 11:41am
I agree that these guys have a very extreme very fringe understanding of islam.

I think muslims need to understand that looking at the sources, it is hard to conclude that it is not a valid interpretation of islam.

Thankfully the vast majority of muslims eschew this interpretation of islam.

But you cannot point to these people and say that there is no basis in the deen for this behaviour especially since muslims agree that the Quran and Sunnah are the best examples for all eternity.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2018 at 7:38pm
I think from another perspective, one can also blame the semi-religiousness of some Muslim criminals. For instance, a womanizer who beats his wife but won't eat pork and fasts during Ramadan. Such individuals make it seem like religion is responsible when in reality it's not. The guy's just not following his religion appropriately.

My great grandmother wanted to convert to Protestantism because she used to say her own kind (Catholics) were hypocrites, showing up to church on Sundays, doing the sign of the cross, etc. etc. but gambling and drinking and saying God wants us to be happy.

The semi-religious may make it seem to outsiders as though they are practicing their religion, and their bad examples are then associated with the religion.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: Yesterday at 2:09am
But hold on a second... Beating your wife or ma malakat aymanukum is prescribed in the Quran.

It's impossible to say that beating your wife or your sex slave is not Islamic.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: Yesterday at 1:00pm
Magister that is your interpretation of your religion.

But you need to look at the sources.

Can you say that a man who beats his wife is behaving in an unislamic manner?

I would say no... At the end of the day that is a right given by the deen to him.

Edited by The_Rock - Yesterday at 1:02pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: Yesterday at 9:40pm
I know there are several interpretations that say beating is actually hitting her with a toothbrush or something of the sort. But even if one wanted to use the interpretation of hitting by hand, there is a huge difference in hitting where it leaves no mark, cannot touch the face, and happens once in the most extreme circumstances as opposed to 'beating' one's spouse. I'm sure you, being of European descent, would agree there is a difference between spanking your child and beating your child. One is discipline, the other is abuse.

Growing up, when I was bad, I was hit with a belt, a broom, wooden spoons, you name it...and even then it's not abuse. Yet this too is far too excessive for what the Quran says in light of the Hadiths.

So one can readily say that wife beating is not permitted in Islam. Indeed, an assault on her person is sinful and hated (as it would be the other way around if she beat him).

Likewise, sex slaves don't quite exist in Islam as it does in modern Western culture. In Islam, one can maintain a love relationship with someone he owns/rents (never truly owns, so rents or leases would be a better word, I think), but never against her will, which is not the case in the Western understanding.

Those who interpret it otherwise have a lot of evidence to oppose them, as I've demonstrated on these forums in the past.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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