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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Topic: Continuation of Conversation With Damo
    Posted: 13 September 2018 at 12:03pm

Hi Damo.

To continue our conversation in the, now closed down, topic 'Petra is Mecca':

The Former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Bin Baz (an ardent Wahhabi) declared that suicide attacks are ‘evil, sinful, immoral, corrupt, oppressive and hostile’; and that those responsible for such crimes do not believe in Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) and the Last Day ‘with correct conviction.’ In his opinion, such people are: ‘Indulged in the lewdness of the spirit, corruption of the self and envy.’ (referenced in ‘ISIS - DAESH a Catastrophe and a Tribulation’; by Syed Hussain bin Osman Madani, and reviewed by Shaykh Abdullah Taha Madani).

Syed Madani writes:

‘Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Ramzan Al-Hajari (may Allah preserve him), Lecturer by Royal Commission Al-Jubail, Eastern Province Saudi Arabia said that Daesh and Nusrah Front are not upon truth.

‘He further said that there are no ‘Ulama (scholars) with this organisation, rather all of them are imprudent and foolish…………a bloodthirsty and savage organisation, which is not only a danger for Muslims, but rather the whole humanity. Furthermore, he said that to warn against the perpetuators of mischief and tribulations and to disgrace them is an extremely high level of Jihad.’ (Op. cit.).

According to Al-Hajari, approximately one thousand and fifty Indian scholars have issued a Fatwa (a religious ruling) stating that ISIS is un-Islamic; and that therefore: ‘The scholars from all around the world should disseminate awareness against this terrorist organisation by any possible means.’ This Fatwa was signed by one thousand and seventy religious organisations, and copies sent to fifty countries.

Madani goes on:

‘After having known the opinion of the Indian scholars towards Daesh, it is appropriate to get ourselves acquainted with what the Muslim leadership has to say about it too. The senior Barrister, Janab Asad-ud-Deen Owaisi, President of AIMIM, and Member of Parliament in India, gave this message to 180 million Muslims that Daesh are Khawaarij, who are dogs of Hellfire, adulterers, murderers and worthy of condemnation. He also advised the youth to remain close with the ‘Ulama, and prevent themselves from visiting the terrorist websites, and consider seeking knowledge, eradication of poverty and serving one’s parents to be Jihad in the current times.

‘Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh (may Allah preserve him) said that organisations like Al-Qaeda and Daesh are Khawaarij, amongst whom extremism, severity, rigidness, mischief and terrorism are found. Moreover, they are the first enemies of Islam, who slaughter the Muslims to begin with. Thus, these organisations have nothing to do with Islam. In fact they are outside the Deen.’ (Op. cit.).

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (a Sufi) has also issued a lengthy Fatwa against ISIS, declaring them to be Khawarij and, as such, outside the fold of Islam. According to the Shaykh, Muslims have a duty to fight ISIS, and to destroy them. (see his book: ‘Refuting ISIS’). Muslims are attempting to do just that.

Why is it that certain people (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily (and eagerly)? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek suggest an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals, or nations, are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Why do Islamist extremists defy the Qur’an?

The principal reason is evidenced in a Channel 4 documentary on the Qur’an; a documentary I recorded several years ago. At one point, the presenter introduces Sheikh Khalid Tafesh, at that time the elected representative of Hamas in Bethlehem; with (according to the presenter) a third of his votes coming from Christian Palestinians.

When reminded that that suicide is expressly forbidden in the Qur’an the Sheikh answers: ‘That’s true. God says “do not kill yourself, and do not bring misery on yourself”, so we are forbidden from attempting suicide.’

He then says: ‘If we had the same weapons as the enemy we would not resort to this method, but we don’t, so it’s our only option.’

His argument is straightforward: When faced with overwhelming power and weaponry Muslims are entitled to set the Exalted’s prohibitions on aggressive and unrestrained warfare aside; and to act in any way they see fit.

El Fadl writes: ‘Since they (the terrorists) are not strong enough to take on the Western armed military, they must achieve victory by any means necessary. And, according to puritans, waging attacks against the civilian nationals of countries that occupy Muslim lands will eventually bring these countries to their knees and teach them not to violate the sanctity of or attempt to dominate Muslim nations.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

In short, Islamist extremists believe they are justified in violating the prohibitions against starting – or participating in – a war of aggression; against harming, in any way, non-combatants, women, children, the old, the sick and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war; as well as the prohibitions against destroying property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; crops or livestock; and the prohibition against suicide; because (as far as they are concerned) there is no other way to win peace…their version of peace.

El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In a foreword to the monograph ‘Islamic Rulings on Warfare’; produced in 2004 by Lieutenant Commander Youssef Aboul-Enein (US Navy Medical Service Corps) and Dr. Sherifa Zuhur (Visiting Research Professor of National Security Affairs at the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College) Douglas Lovecraft - Director of the Strategic Studies Institute - writes:

‘To win that ideological war (against Islamic radicalism and anti-American sentiment) we must understand the sources of both Islamic radicalism and liberalism. We need to comprehend more thoroughly the ways in which militants misinterpret and pervert Islamic scripture. (‘Islamic’ terror groups have) produced (their) own spokespersons who attempt to provide religious legitimacy to the nihilism they preach. Many frequently quote from the Quran and ahadith (the Prophet Muhammad’s sayings and deeds) in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

‘The authors have found that proper use of Islamic scripture actually discredits the tactics of al-Qaeda and other jihadist organisations.’

Everything that Lovecraft says about ‘Islamic’ terror groups can be applied equally well to those who rage against Islam in general, and its Prophet in particular. These people also quote from the Quran and ʼaḥādīth in a biased manner to draw justification for their cause.

Julia Ebner, an Austrian journalist, and researcher at the London-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue, writes:

‘Although it may seem self-evident, it is important to emphasise that most Muslims are not Islamists and most Islamists are not jihadists. This crucial distinction is often ignored by far-right sympathisers, who use the terms Islam, Islamism and jihadism interchangeably to propagate the view that Islam is inherently violent.

‘Far-right and Islamist extremist incidents correlate in terms of their timing, and areas with a strong far-right presence are more likely to breed Islamist extremists and vice versa. One side tends to provoke a retaliatory reaction from the other. The extremes thus escalate, resulting in a spiralling violence effect. With those on each side feeling the need to defend themselves from the offences of the other side, their predictions become a self-fulfilling prophecy: an increasing number of Muslims are lured into embracing Islamist views and a rising number of non-Muslims turn to far-right parties.

‘Looking at the statistics, the Global Database on Terrorism (GDT) records domestic, transnational and international acts of terrorism that occur anywhere across the world. It contains data on over 150,000 terrorist attacks, making it the world’s most comprehensive unclassified database on terrorism incidents. An analysis of this data suggests that far-right extremist violence correlates with Islamist extremist attacks. Indeed, a closer look at the incidents that occurred in the period between January 2012 and September 2016 across the US, Australia, the UK, France and Germany, reveals that far-right and Islamist terrorist attacks tend to spike at the same time.

‘To conclude, a symbiotic relationship between far-right and Islamist extremists occurs on at least two levels: (1) as their stories are two sides of the same coin, they reinforce each other; and (2) as their actions provoke each other into more radical retaliation, they turn each other’s predictions into self-fulfilling prophecies.’ (‘The Rage: The Vicious Circle of Islamist and Far-Right Extremism’).

It appears that far-right and Islamist extremists are incapable of making a fair and reasonable assessment of what the Qur’an has to say – based on a thorough examination of the text itself; and of the words of Islamic scholars – because such an assessment cannot exist in their particular world. They begin with the assumption that whatever they believe simply has to be true; and that any argument to the contrary must be a lie, or else the product of some delusion. No evidence, no logic, no appeal to reason can persuade them otherwise. They dwell in their own echo chambers; two sides of the same worthless currency.


Edited by Niblo - 26 September 2018 at 3:15pm
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2018 at 8:05pm
Hi Niblo.

My initial point was that the closer one gets to the Arabian peninsula geographically - the beating heart of Islam, where the customs of islam are more widely established, formally implemented and enforced and
whereby the people themselves speak Arabic and are able to understand therefore 1st hand the words of islamic scripture more adequately that the vast majority of Muslims. And yet however one finds also by the same distinction an ever increasing intolerance towards Non-Muslims, there is virulent anti-non Muslim rhetoric and extreme bigotry which itself is fueled and justified by their more in-depth islamic understanding than that of the majority (rather than what i say).

That there is no movement or to curtail or make illegal such open inflammatory rhetoric often spoken from your pulpits. Why so if it is so diametrically opposed to islamic teaching/tradition ?


One need only look on youtube to see the call to violence from religious sources comes but from one quarter and no other. WHY ?

You just DON'T find Buddhists monks, Jewish rabbis, evangelical ministers or catholic priests who in the capacity of the office they hold calling for blood on the streets in the name of their religion. Yet they are ten a penny in islam. Why on earth could that possibly be if not because there is an encouragement of it within the religious texts themselves ?


You above have detailed every condemnation of isis you can find. Isis in my view are the extreme of the Extreme. Suicide bombers are the extreme of the Extreme. Clearly however there is a hostility which is more nuanced and less gung ho then these extremes. Such is the attitude of indifference towards hate preachers, which is the same indifference towards non-Muslim intimidation, and the general lower standard of living for non -Muslims. These are long standing realities that have not only not been addressed within the islamic word but are of no importance.

This to me Niblo is due to islamic scripture i'e the Hadith which furnishes an understanding of the context of the Quran and how it and Mohammed are to be understood.

P.S.. As for Isis. If one looks back to their uprising , condemnation of the group by Muslim apologists only really started after fellow Muslims were understood also as fair game. The Jordanian pilot burning etc of course took a new dimension.     


Edited by Damo808 - 13 September 2018 at 8:07pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2018 at 3:44pm
Hi Damo.

All the scholars I have quoted speak Arabic, and understand the Qur’an. It is this that makes them Islamic scholars!

You write that those whose first language is Arabic display a: ‘virulent anti-non Muslim rhetoric and extreme bigotry which itself is fuelled and justified by their more in-depth Islamic understanding than that of the majority.’ By which, presumably, you mean their understanding of the Qur’an.

Since I have demonstrated that the Qur’an does not support such ‘virulent anti-non Muslim rhetoric’, nor such ‘extreme bigotry’, I am justified in saying that such behaviour is due, not to an understanding of the Qur’an, but rather to a complete misunderstanding; or else to a deliberate distortion of its message.

What you have to do is produce Qur’anic verses that, in your opinion, refute – not my words – but those of the scholars I have quoted. You have had since the 19th of July in which to do this. What’s keeping you?

Prove the scholars wrong, and do so with reasoned argument, drawn from the very source that they use. Anything other approach is not the best use of your time.

By the way, repeating that you lack knowledge is not going to excuse you. If the knowledge you posses is sufficient – in your opinion – to justify your attack on the Qur’an then it ought to be sufficient to defend your position when challenged. A lot more scholarship on your part would be very welcome. Your call!



Edited by Niblo - 26 September 2018 at 3:15pm
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2018 at 9:59am
Originally posted by Niblo

Hi Demo.

All the scholars I have quoted speak Arabic, and understand the Qur’an. It is this that makes them Islamic scholars!


I'd like to see the list of signatories. The entire non Muslim world was staring at the islamic world awaiting answers.. yet they came away with the same 'islam is peace' statements while are simultaneously nonchalant in their silence about casual anti non Muslim hatred being spoken from some of Islam's most prominent pulpits not to mention the madrassas across the Muslim world who do likewise.

Was the kidnapping of mothers and their daughters for sexual slavery and trade by Isis not a practice employed by Mohammed ? Yes or no ?

Where is their drive to rid this culture of hate that pervades from your religious sphere if it is indeed un-islamic ? Of the signatories, Why aren't they calling also for the jailing of the procrastinators of sectarian division for teaching shirk if they indeed are teaching that which is unlawful ?
Why don't they police such religious hatred like they do women's attire, and familial relations between men and women, surely if someone is calling for death in the name of religion within a mosque that is of more concern than if a woman is shopping alone without a male chaperone ?

Why are even some western mosques and the religious schools promoting intolerant ideas based of religious teachings ?
Exposed not by their vast membership but by independant journalistic exposure ?

And then when their underbelly of hatred is exposed they feign shock and horror.

You see there is an indifference in attitude to clamping down in wrongs in some area but giving zero importance of others which that the world has swallowed for so long with islam its overlooked .. . You SAY above Muslims are taught Allah created all people equally. But islamic culture has produced no evidence of where equality is implemented except that which is interpreted as an allowance towards non Muslims some may say a tolerance.   

IMO.. For many muslims and especially the leaders of predominantly muslim countries looking on, Isis were never a credible outfit for securing Islamic world domination, therefore exposing the modern world to the shock of some legitimate islamic practices i.e women/child slavery and sexual subjugation of said slaves. It was always only going come to nothing globally .. a force woefully incapable of the goals they ascribe to. Therefore better to condemn as well as to distance oneself to a doomed cause that exposes the harsh reality what islamic domination would ultimately mean for many in some jurisdictions of a global caliphate.


Originally posted by Niblo

You write that those whose first language is Arabic display a: ‘virulent anti-non Muslim rhetoric and extreme bigotry which itself is fuelled and justified by their more in-depth Islamic understanding than that of the majority.’ By which, presumably, you mean their understanding of the Qur’an.

Since I have demonstrated that the Qur’an does not support such ‘virulent anti-non Muslim rhetoric’, nor such ‘extreme bigotry’, I am justified in saying that such behaviour is due, not to an understanding of the Qur’an, but rather to a complete misunderstanding; or else to a deliberate distortion of its message.


Why has such a 'misunderstanding' allowed for the prevailing discord of disharmony and indifference to such discord across so many countries identified as having an islamic culture, permeating even into Islamic communities within western society ? Why does every airport in every country in the world screen for Islamic attacks ? Why is it that just about every non islamic country bordering a predominantly muslim country's border suffer from religious violence and turmoil ? These are the pervading hallmarks of |islamic culture Niblo the world over.    

Originally posted by Niblo

What you have to do is produce Qur’anic verses that, in your opinion, refute – not my words – but those of the scholars I have quoted. You have had since the 19th of July in which to do this. What’s keeping you?


Nothing is keeping me. I have already stated my case already. The Quran discriminates directly against non muslims polytheists christians and jews as those not to be trusted, who are misguided, mischief makers, the worst of creatures etc etc etc etc etc etc and over and over and over and over and over and over.. to so much an extent that if one were to take this book as a work of pure fiction, written as fiction and that the characters there-in were just characters of say a Ron Hubbard novel other than real identifiable groups of real identifiable people one could see how the mind could conjure with the description of how non Muslims are depicted in Islamic scripture as being such a debased people to be openly seen as sinful and disgraceful in however your minds-eye sees fit.

But Muslims are able to identify such 'troublesome' individuals purely by their rejection of Muhammed in the continuation of their own traditions and whom the Quran names according to which tradition they follow singling them out for segregation among society.

This to me is why there are so many societal problem with Muslims in just about all non Muslim societies in which there is vibrant democracy with a sizable muslim minority.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2018 at 3:33am
I think just as in the West there is a cultural war between conservatives and progressives (the extremes of both sides), there is a much more intense version of this occurring in the Muslim world, with the most extreme Muslims aligning more closely with Western conservatives.

Right now, the Middle East has nothing but political strife and chaos. It's been that way for a while now. It's not going away that easily anytime soon. People are taking sides. Some are rejecting all forms of Islamic conservatism, while others are embracing to the extremes. We see this very same behavioral pattern in the West. The difference is, the Middle East is not as stable as anywhere else in the world, and therefore violence and bloodshed are commonplace.

Yes, there are many bad apples in the Muslim world. Yes, they are a danger to us all (to Muslim and non-Muslim alike). But this is not due to "religion". It's intellectually lazy and even dishonest to make such a claim. Why can Muslims elsewhere in the world embrace the very same religion and live perfectly peaceful lives while others in areas where war, etc. are common seem to gravitate toward murder and terror?

Not to mention, by definition, terror is based around politics, not religion. And everywhere we look, the Muslim variation of terror is supporting this definition. The Palestinians are not demanding the Jews convert to Islam. They don't care what religion they follow, they care that they're a foreign group of people who stole their land. The Chechnyans want independence. The Sudanese want power. The Taliban wanted Afghanistan. Al Qaeda wanted the US to stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by supporting their enemies. These are the lists of demands we're getting. Then there's ISIL. A group that one could argue is mainly religious, and I'd have a hard time arguing that without speculation. Yet we see this group is shunned by the whole of the Muslim world for being fanatical, misguided lunatics. Even Al Qaida was considering them un-Islamic and too violent and unjust to innocent people.

The religion itself does nothing more than provide instructions on how to live a good, pious life. However, it also provides a standard for morality, and we'll see from time to time people who feel they are right turning to religion (whatever religion it may be) to find justification for their deeds. Islam is no different from the Christians on both sides of WW2 for instance who thought they were doing the Lord's work.

Another major problem, I think, is the selective listening of some Muslims looking to become extremists. They seek out extremist leaders while considering non-extreme leaders as sell-outs or kafirs or false scholars. Sometimes people themselves just want to do bad things and they want to find bad leadership.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2018 at 4:17am
Originally posted by Damo808

[QUOTE=Niblo]............ Nothing is keeping me. I have already stated my case already.


You claim that you have ‘already stated (your) case’.

Allow me to remind you of your original accusation; namely that: ‘religiously inspired violence, Muslim on Muslim and anybody else……points to something that fundamentally has to come from the Quran itself.’ In short, you are claiming that the Qur’an supports terrorism.

The burden of proof is always on the one making the accusation. In order to prove that the Qur’an supports terrorism it is necessary to present, for objective consideration, verses that do just that; and, ideally, the works of Qur’anic scholars (expert witnesses, if you like; Muslim or non-Muslim) who can substantiate the accusation.

You have submitted twelve posts on this topic; twelve occasions in which you have come before a jury, so to speak. Twelve opportunities to introduce your expert witnesses. Twelve opportunities to prove your case.   

You have done nothing of the sort. You have written about certain reprehensible (even shocking) behaviours; but not once – not once – have you demonstrated that these behaviours are supported by the Qur’an. Not once have you cited a Qur’anic verse, or a Qur’anic scholar.

In 1960, Penguin Books Ltd. published an unexpurgated edition of D.H. Lawrence’s ‘Lady Chatterley’s Lover’ (the story of an illicit relationship between the wife of a paraplegic aristocrat and their gamekeeper). Penguin Books were accused of violating British law by publishing obscene literature. During the trial the book itself was examined in great detail. In the end, the jury found for Penguin Books.

Imagine, for a moment, the prosecuting barrister declaring, at the outset, that he was not prepared to discuss the book at all; or to call any witnesses in support of his case. Imagine his refusal to do so, even when pressed by the presiding judge. How long would that case have continued, do you suppose? How long would that barrister have kept his job?

You, Damo, are behaving in exactly this manner. If the prosecutors in our respective countries followed your example our criminal justice systems would collapse!
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2018 at 4:21am
Originally posted by Magister

I think just as in the West there is a cultural war between conservatives and progressives (the extremes of both sides), there is a much more intense version of this occurring in the Muslim world, with the most extreme Muslims aligning more closely with Western conservatives.

Right now, the Middle East has nothing but political strife and chaos. It's been that way for a while now. It's not going away that easily anytime soon. People are taking sides. Some are rejecting all forms of Islamic conservatism, while others are embracing to the extremes. We see this very same behavioral pattern in the West. The difference is, the Middle East is not as stable as anywhere else in the world, and therefore violence and bloodshed are commonplace.

Yes, there are many bad apples in the Muslim world. Yes, they are a danger to us all (to Muslim and non-Muslim alike). But this is not due to "religion". It's intellectually lazy and even dishonest to make such a claim. Why can Muslims elsewhere in the world embrace the very same religion and live perfectly peaceful lives while others in areas where war, etc. are common seem to gravitate toward murder and terror?

Not to mention, by definition, terror is based around politics, not religion. And everywhere we look, the Muslim variation of terror is supporting this definition. The Palestinians are not demanding the Jews convert to Islam. They don't care what religion they follow, they care that they're a foreign group of people who stole their land. The Chechnyans want independence. The Sudanese want power. The Taliban wanted Afghanistan. Al Qaeda wanted the US to stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by supporting their enemies. These are the lists of demands we're getting. Then there's ISIL. A group that one could argue is mainly religious, and I'd have a hard time arguing that without speculation. Yet we see this group is shunned by the whole of the Muslim world for being fanatical, misguided lunatics. Even Al Qaida was considering them un-Islamic and too violent and unjust to innocent people.

The religion itself does nothing more than provide instructions on how to live a good, pious life. However, it also provides a standard for morality, and we'll see from time to time people who feel they are right turning to religion (whatever religion it may be) to find justification for their deeds. Islam is no different from the Christians on both sides of WW2 for instance who thought they were doing the Lord's work.

Another major problem, I think, is the selective listening of some Muslims looking to become extremists. They seek out extremist leaders while considering non-extreme leaders as sell-outs or kafirs or false scholars. Sometimes people themselves just want to do bad things and they want to find bad leadership.


As-Salāmu ‘alaykum.

An excellent post, brother. Without doubt there is a close correlation between conservative Western extremists and their Muslim counterparts. They are – as I’ve said before – two sides of the same worthless coinage.

There has been political strive and chaos in the Middle East for decades, and at it’s root lies Western invasion, occupation, and interference. This is well documented, and accounts for much of the instability we see in that region. This is not to say that Muslims are blameless, far from it. A small minority are quick to exploit the pain and deprivation felt in that region by the majority, and to use it for their own ends.

As you say, there are bad apples in the Muslim world. Christian bad apples have caused the death of countless millions; very often in the name of their religion; far more often for political reasons. And they are still doing it; still enabling others to do it. This is the tragedy of humankind; that we find it so very easy to hate and to kill.

As you know, to love Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) we must love all that He loves and dislike all that He dislikes. Our personal desires must become consistent with His Divine Will.

Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes:

‘The highest stage of submission is to love God more than any other, even more than oneself, and for those who achieve this lofty position of loving God absolutely and completely, they become God’s beloved, endowed with true perception, wisdom, and compassion. For human beings to love God necessarily means that they must love all that God has created and represents. It would make little sense to love God but hate God’s creatures and creation. To truly love God, one must love all human beings, whether Muslim or not, and love all living beings as well as all of God’s nature. To truly love God means that one must also detest the destruction of what God has created. For those who reach the lofty stature of being God’s beloved, their hearts will be full with love for justice, and full of compassion and love for all. As the classical scholars used to put it, if you find a man full of anger, resentment, hate, and cruelty toward human beings, animals, or nature, then know that the love of God has not entered his heart. In short, it is impossible to love God or be beloved by God and not to exhibit the characteristics of Godliness.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2018 at 9:13am
Originally posted by Damo808

Nothing is keeping me. I have already stated my case already.


Originally posted by Niblo

You claim that you have ‘already stated (your) case’.

Allow me to remind you of your original accusation; namely that: ‘religiously inspired violence, Muslim on Muslim and anybody else……points to something that fundamentally has to come from the Quran itself.’ In short, you are claiming that the Qur’an supports terrorism.

The burden of proof is always on the one making the accusation. In order to prove that the Qur’an supports terrorism it is necessary to present, for objective consideration, verses that do just that; and, ideally, the works of Qur’anic scholars (expert witnesses, if you like; Muslim or non-Muslim) who can substantiate the accusation.

You have submitted twelve posts on this topic; twelve occasions in which you have come before a jury, so to speak. Twelve opportunities to introduce your expert witnesses. Twelve opportunities to prove your case.   

You have done nothing of the sort. You have written about certain reprehensible (even shocking) behaviours; but not once – not once – have you demonstrated that these behaviours are supported by the Qur’an. Not once have you cited a Qur’anic verse, or a Qur’anic scholar.

In 1960, Penguin Books Ltd. published an unexpurgated edition of D.H. Lawrence’s ‘Lady Chatterley’s Lover’ (the story of an illicit relationship between the wife of a paraplegic aristocrat and their gamekeeper). Penguin Books were accused of violating British law by publishing obscene literature. During the trial the book itself was examined in great detail. In the end, the jury found for Penguin Books.

Imagine, for a moment, the prosecuting barrister declaring, at the outset, that he was not prepared to discuss the book at all; or to call any witnesses in support of his case. Imagine his refusal to do so, even when pressed by the presiding judge. How long would that case have continued, do you suppose? How long would that barrister have kept his job?

You, Damo, are behaving in exactly this manner. If the prosecutors in our respective countries followed your example our criminal justice systems would collapse!


Niblo what else is there really to say ? You put fwd the 'golden rules' of the Quran which i've shown in the hadith you quoted from didn't matter a toss. Women and children slaughtered by Muhammad were clearly not a significant matter needing explanation when you see they were simply belonging to those people the Quran continually demonizes anyway conveying inferiority of nature and spirituality of the victim.

So I say the Quran or rather the writer of definitely seeks to influence the mindset of Muslims to view a person first and foremost not as a person created equal in the image of God, but either as a believer or one of 'the worst of creatures' if they so see fit.

I say to you throughout the Quran non believers are equated to that as to be hated to be mistrusted to not take as friends, the worst of creatures liars enemies of Allah etc etc etc etc etc. We see instructions within the Quran of fighting the unbelievers, ohh ofcourse this is under strict conditions you will say. But that is just it. Islam has no central authoritative body which can interpret how to legitimize what is justifiable in the reality of a disjointed ummah throughout the world where Muslim and non Muslim borders meet. This is is the reality we see today.
How is it that so much of the world which identifies as islamic is also recognised as undeveloped, politically unstable, endemically corrupt with chronically poor education and feature heavily as the usual suspects on Amnesty international ?

You cannot say all the negatives that are associated with islamic culture which in turn impact the rest of the non -muslim world negatively in varying degrees do not stem from islam itself (or more succinctly the Quran if need be said)which is what you trying to do in trying to extrapolate the Quran from having any negative influence on human behaviour.
But hey those golden rules right.

Edited by Damo808 - 07 October 2018 at 9:16am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2018 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Magister

I think just as in the West there is a cultural war between conservatives and progressives (the extremes of both sides), there is a much more intense version of this occurring in the Muslim world, with the most extreme Muslims aligning more closely with Western conservatives.


Yes one being a religious struggle the other a political struggle. Surely your not comparing the two ?


Originally posted by Magister

Right now, the Middle East has nothing but political strife and chaos. It's been that way for a while now.

Centuries ?



Originally posted by Magister

It's not going away that easily anytime soon. People are taking sides. Some are rejecting all forms of Islamic conservatism, while others are embracing to the extremes. We see this very same behavioral pattern in the West. The difference is, the Middle East is not as stable as anywhere else in the world, and therefore violence and bloodshed are commonplace.


Deadly tribalism.

Originally posted by Magister

Yes, there are many bad apples in the Muslim world. Yes, they are a danger to us all (to Muslim and non-Muslim alike). But this is not due to "religion". It's intellectually lazy and even dishonest to make such a claim. Why can Muslims elsewhere in the world embrace the very same religion and live perfectly peaceful lives while others in areas where war, etc. are common seem to gravitate toward murder and terror?


Usually because in the West for example islamic extremism is kept at a clandestine level because it is rhetoric that is threatens the majority and alienates the minority.
As i stated above, and have shown previously in the Muslim world such rhetoric is commonplace, where Muslims ARE the majority. If such rhetoric is indeed unislamic as Niblo asserts then why don't we see mob riots like we do elsewhere when some young disabled christian girl is falsely accused of desecrating a Quran to the detriment of her family, community her village in order to drive out 'un islamic' hate preachers which incite the genocides of which you speak ?

All this just comes from nowhere right ? Seriously.


Originally posted by Magister

Not to mention, by definition, terror is based around politics, not religion. And everywhere we look, the Muslim variation of terror is supporting this definition.


And your politics is steeped in religion, which causes much of the political tension.. and so the wheel turns.


Originally posted by Magister

The Palestinians are not demanding the Jews convert to Islam. They don't care what religion they follow, they care that they're a foreign group of people who stole their land. The Chechnyans want independence. The Sudanese want power. The Taliban wanted Afghanistan. Al Qaeda wanted the US to stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs by supporting their enemies. These are the lists of demands we're getting. Then there's ISIL. A group that one could argue is mainly religious, and I'd have a hard time arguing that without speculation. Yet we see this group is shunned by the whole of the Muslim world for being fanatical, misguided lunatics. Even Al Qaida was considering them un-Islamic and too violent and unjust to innocent people.


Leave aside the Jews the Palestinians and the Chechens for a moment, there is innocent blood on all there. What about the far east, what about Thailand, the Philippines, the problems even being felt in Japan .. people look at the Burmese but i have to say from the way they see their neighbours troubles spiraling with islamic separatists groups with absolutely no legitimacy to their grounds and who are funded by the middle east. They are coming down with a severely hard hand. But that is the way some see the threat. It exposes that wherever it may be Islam gains a foothold the rest of the population suffers because it brings violence and division. The seeds of Islam.

Originally posted by Magister

The religion itself does nothing more than provide instructions on how to live a good, pious life. However, it also provides a standard for morality, and we'll see from time to time people who feel they are right turning to religion (whatever religion it may be) to find justification for their deeds. Islam is no different from the Christians on both sides of WW2 for instance who thought they were doing the Lord's work.


It depends If you believe in the purpose of war to be for the preservation of what belongs to you, or taking that which doesn't belong to you. I don't believe a Christian german soldier for example could find any religious justification for taking a jewish family from their home for extermination any where in the NT. But could I find an example of Muhammed taking a Jewish family killing the men and then sexually entering the dead mens female kin. Yes something even the nazis didn't even do by comparison.


Originally posted by Magister

Another major problem, I think, is the selective listening of some Muslims looking to become extremists. They seek out extremist leaders while considering non-extreme leaders as sell-outs or kafirs or false scholars. Sometimes people themselves just want to do bad things and they want to find bad leadership.


Maybe they feel in their religious fervour that such teachings prohibit them from being like the warlike model they have come to adore ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2018 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Damo808

..............


You say that the Qur’an: ‘definitely seeks to influence the mindset of Muslims to view a person first and foremost not as a person created equal in the image of God, but either as a believer or one of “the worst of creatures” if they so see fit.’

This is pure twaddle.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us: ‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13)

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

People are free to choose whatever religion they wish (or to have no religion at all):

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).

Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).

Christians deny this promise by claiming that they alone can achieve salvation. The rest of us are going to Hell on a handcart (along with Catholics, according to some Protestants; and Protestants, according to some Catholics. Such tolerance!) Muslim Puritans claim that this verse has been abrogated by the following:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

Consider this:

‘….those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.

All people, regardless of their religion – or none – are required to spread justice, compassion and mercy on earth; yes, and beauty too.   

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Spend in Allāh’s cause: do not contribute to your destruction with your own hands, but do good, for Allāh loves those who do good.’ (Al-Baqara: 195); and this: ‘Allāh loves those who keep their pledges and are mindful of Him……who give, both in prosperity and adversity, who restrain their anger and pardon people – Allāh loves those who do good…….. so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them. Consult with them about matters, then, when you have decided on a course of action, put your trust in Allāh: Allāh loves those who put their trust in Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 76; 134; 159): and this: ‘Allāh loves those who seek to purify themselves.’ (Al-Tawba: 108).

Anyone who behaves in the manner described in these verses is loved by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). Anyone at all.


Time and again Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) speaks of those He does not love; those who are unjust; who are corrupters of the earth; who are unforgiving, cruel and treacherous; who are liars; who are ungrateful; who are arrogant, and so on:

‘There is (a kind of) man whose views on the life of this world may please you (Prophet), he even calls on Allāh to witness what is in his heart, yet he is the bitterest of opponents. When he leaves, he sets out to spread corruption in the land, destroying crops and live-stock – Allāh does not like corruption. When he is told, “Beware of Allāh,” his arrogance leads him to sin. Hell is enough for him: a dreadful resting place.’ (Al-Baqara: 204-206); and again ‘Your God is the One God. As for those who deny the life to come, their hearts refuse to admit the truth and they are arrogant. There is no doubt that Allāh knows what they conceal and what they reveal. He does not love the arrogant.’ (Al-Nahl: 22-23); and again: ‘Seek the life to come by means of what Allāh has granted you, but do not neglect your rightful share in this world. Do good to others as Allāh has done good to you. Do not seek to spread corruption in the land, for Allāh does not love those who do this,’ (Al-Qasas: 77); and this: ‘Do not turn your nose up at people, nor walk about the place arrogantly, for Allāh does not love arrogant or boastful people. Go at a moderate pace and lower your voice, for the ugliest of all voices is the braying of asses.’ (Luqman: 18). The Bible is equally hard on sinners

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) loves, or does not love, according to our actions, and quite regardless of how we feel about Him. Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes: ‘What triggers God’s love is certain acts and qualities that are appealing to God. God loves those who act in particular ways or possess certain qualities even if some of these people do not love God back.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).


Edited by Niblo - 11 October 2018 at 7:56am
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2018 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Niblo



You say that the Qur’an: ‘definitely seeks to influence the mindset of Muslims to view a person first and foremost not as a person created equal in the image of God, but either as a believer or one of “the worst of creatures” if they so see fit.’

This is pure twaddle.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety.


Twaddle ? You've just corroborated exactly what i said.
Yes the Quran acknowledges that All mankind is created equally. But as you say Muslims judge people by their faith and piety. How can one judge a persons faith and piety if by definition one is a stranger ?

It also depends on what you mean when you say you judge a person by their faith and piety.

Do you mean you judge by by their level of conviction of belief in their religion expressed in their piety towards following it ?

Or do you mean you judge them by what religion they practice, and their piety towards following it ?



We can see the inequality in the way Sharia courts distinguish muslim from non muslim testimony. Based upon the understanding that by definition one who reJects Allah and His messenger must yet be of a corrupt mind despite his faith and piety towards his religion or perhaps because of it - that is a religion at odds with Islam.


Originally posted by Niblo

He tells us: ‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13)

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

People are free to choose whatever religion they wish (or to have no religion at all):

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).

Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).


How can you say this Niblo and seriously believe it ?
The majority of new Muslims in the world each year are those born into it who when they are of an age of awareness will be denied by compulsion from having any choice but islam . That is compulsion and spiritual enslavement kept in check at both the community and state level. and you are back slapping it.


Originally posted by Niblo

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).

Christians deny this promise by claiming that they alone can achieve salvation. The rest of us are going to Hell on a handcart (along with Catholics, according to some Protestants; and Protestants, according to some Catholics. Such tolerance!) Muslim Puritans claim that this verse has been abrogated by the following:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.



Christians are forewarned to judge no-one. I personally don't believe all Muslims will enter eternal damnation, or all Catholics will enter heaven though i'm pretty sure most Muslims would expect me to receive the worst from Allah.



Originally posted by Niblo

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

Consider this:

‘….those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.

All people, regardless of their religion – or none – are required to spread justice, compassion and mercy on earth; yes, and beauty too.


Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Spend in Allāh’s cause: do not contribute to your destruction with your own hands, but do good, for Allāh loves those who do good.’ (Al-Baqara: 195); and this: ‘Allāh loves those who keep their pledges and are mindful of Him……who give, both in prosperity and adversity, who restrain their anger and pardon people – Allāh loves those who do good…….. so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them. Consult with them about matters, then, when you have decided on a course of action, put your trust in Allāh: Allāh loves those who put their trust in Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 76; 134; 159): and this: ‘Allāh loves those who seek to purify themselves.’ (Al-Tawba: 108).

Anyone who behaves in the manner described in these verses is loved by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). Anyone at all.


Time and again Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) speaks of those He does not love; those who are unjust; who are corrupters of the earth; who are unforgiving, cruel and treacherous; who are liars; who are ungrateful; who are arrogant, and so on:

‘There is (a kind of) man whose views on the life of this world may please you (Prophet), he even calls on Allāh to witness what is in his heart, yet he is the bitterest of opponents. When he leaves, he sets out to spread corruption in the land, destroying crops and live-stock – Allāh does not like corruption. When he is told, “Beware of Allāh,” his arrogance leads him to sin. Hell is enough for him: a dreadful resting place.’ (Al-Baqara: 204-206); and again ‘Your God is the One God. As for those who deny the life to come, their hearts refuse to admit the truth and they are arrogant. There is no doubt that Allāh knows what they conceal and what they reveal. He does not love the arrogant.’ (Al-Nahl: 22-23); and again: ‘Seek the life to come by means of what Allāh has granted you, but do not neglect your rightful share in this world. Do good to others as Allāh has done good to you. Do not seek to spread corruption in the land, for Allāh does not love those who do this,’ (Al-Qasas: 77); and this: ‘Do not turn your nose up at people, nor walk about the place arrogantly, for Allāh does not love arrogant or boastful people. Go at a moderate pace and lower your voice, for the ugliest of all voices is the braying of asses.’ (Luqman: 18). The Bible is equally hard on sinners


The OT is hard on tribes who no longer exist. The NT albeit confronts unbelievers and yes does not mince words. It admonishes the Jews yet reaches out to them in kindness. It apportions blame for Jesus Crucifixion on both Gentiles and Jews.

Christians are also commanded 'Love your enemies' It does not alienate whole communities of people identified by their religious affiliation, denigrate their character because of such affiliation and affix them with derogatory terms given to them and to which they are to be recognised with by a group believing themselves to be morally superior for time eternal.
This is why we have trouble today because as i have said the pervading presentation of the non believer is generally one of a reprehensible being.

Originally posted by Niblo

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) loves, or does not love, according to our actions, and quite regardless of how we feel about Him. Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes: ‘What triggers God’s love is certain acts and qualities that are appealing to God. God loves those who act in particular ways or possess certain qualities even if some of these people do not love God back.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2018 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Damo808

............. .


I don’t have time to address the whole of your post at this moment. So permit me to focus on just one section:

In my previous post, I stated that not only are human beings created as equals, but that they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

I went on to say that the message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

I reminded you that the Qur’an gives people the freedom to choose whatever religion they wish (or to have no religion at all):

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).

I then quoted Muhammad Abdel Haleem, who writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).

You claim – I think correctly – that ‘the majority of new Muslims in the world each year are those born into it’.

But then you go on to claim that these Muslims: ‘when they are of an age of awareness will be denied by compulsion from having any choice but Islam.’

A few of questions I would like answering:

1. What is your justification for claiming that all Muslims born into the Faith will be ‘denied by compulsion, from having any choice but Islam’? Please present your evidence.

2. What is your justification for saying that 'compulsion and spiritual enslavement’ has my support?

3. Where, in the Qur’anic verses I have quoted (or in any other verses), does it say that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) demands ‘compulsion and spiritual enslavement’?


Edited by Niblo - 16 October 2018 at 2:13pm
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2018 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Niblo



I don’t have time to address the whole of your post at this moment. So permit me to focus on just one section:

In my previous post, I stated that not only are human beings created as equals, but that they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

I went on to say that the message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

I reminded you that the Qur’an gives people the freedom to choose whatever religion they wish (or to have no religion at all):

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).

I then quoted Muhammad Abdel Haleem, who writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).

You claim – I think correctly – that ‘the majority of new Muslims in the world each year are those born into it’.

But then you go on to claim that these Muslims: ‘when they are of an age of awareness will be denied by compulsion from having any choice but Islam.’

A few of questions I would like answering:

1. What is your justification for claiming that all Muslims born into the Faith will be ‘denied by compulsion, from having any choice but Islam’? Please present your evidence.


C'mon Niblo..In Sharia observant countries (though not exclusively)if you were born to Muslim parents you would have been assumed muslim by the state and registered as so. If in your young adult life you for whatever reason become acquainted with a religion outside of Islam and come to believe that religion to be true therefore by default deny Islam you are then regarded as an apostate.

What then therefore is the punishment for apostasy ?

This is the same for those who simply choose to be atheists.

Originally posted by Niblo

2. What is your justification for saying that 'compulsion and spiritual enslavement’ has my support?


Given the explanation i've provided above, you as a muslim believe that ones conscience regarding their own spirituality and freedom to believe in what they hold to be true see no problem that this most basic of human rights is potentially denied to hundreds of millions every year because of the fear of what befalls an apostate. Hence what 'compels' many who do not subscribe to the religion that they were born and in order to keep their true faith and true conscience secret, is the threat of being labelled an apostate and the threat that that comes with that identity from both the state and society, so instead endure in observing the religious traditions and dogmas to which they were born into. This therefore is spiritual enslavement due to Islamic theocracy .




Originally posted by Niblo

3. Where, in the Qur’anic verses I have quoted (or in any other verses), does it say that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) demands ‘compulsion and spiritual enslavement’?


Who said it explicitly commands it ? I'm telling you that's the reality for born Muslims in Sharia countries is it not ?




Edited by Damo808 - 16 October 2018 at 8:30pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 20 October 2018 at 8:38am
Originally posted by Damo808

.............


It is estimated that around 18% of the world’s 1.8 billion Muslims live in countries that permit the killing of apostates. I have no idea – and neither do you – what percentage of this minority group are eager to abandon Islam; and would rush to do so, were it not for fear of reprisal. But let’s be clear: If only one disaffected Muslim – just the one – is killed for leaving the Faith, then that is one too many.

You ask: ‘What then is the punishment for apostasy?’

Some would have us believe that the punishment ordained for apostasy is death; but this is not the case.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says: ‘As for those who believe, then reject the faith, then believe again, then reject the faith again and become increasingly defiant, Allāh will not forgive them, nor will He guide them on any path. (Prophet), tell such hypocrites that a grievous punishment awaits them.’ (Al-Nisa: 137-138).

If death is the ordained punishment for apostasy, then why do these verses not say so? Indeed, they are made a nonsense by the notion that one who rejects the faith must be killed; for how can a dead person accept what he once rejected; reject it again; and grow in defiance?!!

Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it authorise an earthly punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reserves for Himself the right to judge such behaviour; and to do so on the Day of Judgement.

Some would have us believe that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) required the death sentence for apostasy. According to these folk a number of aḥādīth support of their claim; the best known is this:

‘Ibn Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.”’ (Sahih Al-Bukhari).

I opine that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said no such thing; and that this ḥādīth – and others like it – was fabricated to support corrupt rulers and governments; and is now being employed for that very purpose.

Here are my reasons:

The Qur’an was revealed throughout the Prophet’s life. At no time was he given permission to judge, or to execute, apostates. On the contrary, the Qur’an makes it perfectly clear that his role was to convey the message – to preach and teach the Faith, as expressed in the Qur’an – and nothing more. He was NOT to impose it by force:

‘Allāh bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the angels and those who have knowledge. He upholds justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All Wise. True Religion, in Allāh’s eyes, is (devotion to Him alone). Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge - if anyone denies Allāh’s revelations, Allāh is swift to take account- if they argue with you (Prophet), say: “I have devoted myself to Allāh alone and so have my followers.”

‘Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one: “Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?” If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, YOUR ONLY DUTY IS TO CONVEY THE MESSAGE. Allāh is aware of His servants.’ (Al-‘Imran: Verses 18-20); and again: ‘Obey Allāh, obey the Messenger, and always be on your guard: if you pay no heed, bear in mind that the SOLE DUTY of Our Messenger is to DELIVER THE MESSAGE clearly.’ (Al-Ma’ida:
Verse 92).

The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was given no authority to enforce belief; no authority to kill a person simply for changing his religion. Given the restrictions placed upon him by his Lord, it is unthinkable that he would assume authority for himself – that he would usurp the Exalted’s role as sole judge in this matter.    This is why I discount all aḥādīth that suggest the contrary (and by the way, I am not a Qur’anist!). My argument is supported by the fact that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not order the death of a single person for apostasy alone.

Let me repeat: The Qur’an stresses freedom of conscience as one of Islam’s fundamental tenets:

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing.’ (Al-Baqara: Verse 256); and again: ‘(Prophet), follow what has been revealed to you of your Lord’s Scripture: there is no changing His words, nor can you find any refuge except with Him. Content yourself with those who pray to their Lord morning and evening, seeking His approval, and do not let your eyes turn away from them out of desire for the attractions of this worldly life: do not yield to those whose hearts We have made heedless of Our Qur’an, those who follow their own low desires, those whose ways are unbridled. Say: “Now the truth has come from your Lord”: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so.’ (Al-Kahf: Verse 29).

Apostasy laws are enforced for political rather than religious reasons. Autocratic religious states (and organisations) have always used the threat of punishment as a means of control. When the Church was a power to be reckoned with – when it controlled every aspect of a believer’s life – it did not hesitate to punish apostasy (and heresy) with death.

Only when the Church lost its secular powers were people free to think, and to do, as they pleased.

All Muslims consider the Qur’an to be the very the word of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). This is why it is considered to be the primary and supreme source of jurisprudence in Islam. The Sunnah (the practice of Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) comes next. Both leave no doubt that apostasy – of itself – is not a punishable by death. The only justification for punishing an apostate is when that person goes on to commit a criminal offence – such as murder; theft; treason or some form of war crime.

It amuses me to see Islamophobes and extremists at odds with the Qur’an on this issue. In order to portray their own perverted theological, or political, viewpoint both go to great lengths to misrepresent its clear verses. Both regurgitate the same fallacious arguments, and offer them as ‘authentic’ Islam.

Apostasy laws have been borrowed from older scriptures. They have no basis in the Qur’an or Sunnah. This is why clerics who espouse such extremist beliefs show continued reluctance to debate Muslim scholars and intellectuals on this issue.

The Qur’an upholds Freedom of Conscience in the clearest of terms. It is the duplicity - and political insecurity - of extremist clerics, and of the corrupt governments they support, that gives excuse for oppressive regimes to punish dissent (apostasy).

I asked: What is your justification for saying that ‘compulsion and spiritual enslavement’ has my support?

You reply that I, as a Muslim: ‘…..see no problem that this most basic of human rights is potentially denied to hundreds of millions every year because of the fear of what befalls an apostate.’

Really? As far as I recall, you and I have never discussed this matter (before now). What gives you the right to declare that I have ‘no problem’ with the denial of a person’s inalienable right to choose which religion they wish to follow; or to have no religion at all?

I regard the threat of death for apostasy a form of terrorism. Yet again you have failed to show that the Quran supports terrorism.

Earlier this morning I came across the following advice (offered by a Muslim to yet another ill-informed Christian):

‘This topic is way out of your depth, my friend. Please do some thorough research rather than stick to your premeditated conclusions backed by quick google searches.’

I convey this advice to another in dire need of it!

Have a nice day.


Edited by Niblo - 20 October 2018 at 8:45am
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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