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InterReligious Dialogue
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Topic: Islam and equality
    Posted: 03 November 2018 at 4:42pm
I'm curious to know if Muslims on this forum believe that a legitimate Islamic state is desirable in this and age.

Let's assume that the state is run on Islamic principles.

Would that be a desirable thing to you on a personal level?
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2018 at 11:37pm
Yes, it is.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2018 at 2:47pm
I think that is a legitimate aspiration and one that Muslims ought to strive to attain. A middle eastern caliphate is good for the world.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 7:57am
Would the creation of this state cause muslims to want to immigrate en masses to this country?

Something like what happened with Israel
The existence of a Muslim state would allow muslims to immigrate there as opposed to the west.

It would also solve the immigrant issues we are experiencing.

Itís becoming more and more clear that western Europeís immigration experiment has failed.

The solution is a caliphate.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 10:30pm
I think the Muslims coming to the West are less likely to want to live in an Islamic state. I think they are generally more secular and want more of a Western lifestyle than an Islamic one. I can't speak for every single one, just going by my experience, but this is what I see.

But I'm also against foreign migration to the West in such numbers. Europe is becoming less and less European with every passing year. This I don't agree with.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2018 at 2:36pm
I have continued problems with muslims who wish to bring their muslim identity to the political forefront.

An islamic political identity is irrelevant in the west.

But we get muslims acting more and more to advocate for "muslims".

Western muslims have NO interest in assimilating.

They want islam to be part of the tapestry of western identities.

AND I dont mean their food and art.

I mean they want us to allow them to bring their culture here.

The west is uninterested in islamic culture being part of the west.

If you want the culture go back to an islamic state.

Edited by The_Rock - 25 November 2018 at 2:39pm
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2018 at 1:54pm
Rock, I have to disagree there. I don't see Muslims trying to bring their "religion" over to the West. Perhaps their particular cultures to a limited extent, but not their religion.

Most Muslims I knew who are from abroad seem to be semi-religious at best. Yes, some are very religious, but I'm speaking to what I see on average (or rather, more often than not). They tend to be "regular" people, for lack of a better word. Other than going to mosque instead of church, and getting meatballs on their pizza instead of pepperoni, they typically can pass for just about any other immigrant that comes here.

Maybe it's different in Canada and Europe. In the US, you still run into religious ones from the other side, but I don't think any of those religious ones are trying to negatively change America.

The sad thing for Islam, I think, is that Western culture is diluting the intensity of faith of Muslims.

But to be honest, from what I see in Europe, it seems the Muslims going to Europe are even more secular than the ones coming to the US. And even the accusations I'm hearing about Muslims through pro-Right media, such as Muslims forming street gangs, becoming rapists, muggers, vandals, etc., it seems they are picking up Western practices. You can't be a religious Muslim and rape someone or vandalize or mug someone...these practices are anti-Islamic. So I'm guessing that the word "Muslim" is here used more to describe someone that's from a traditionally Muslim culture but who may or may not be following the religion.

Mind you, Rock, I'm not against any culture coming to the West and introducing their own cultural ideas to us. It might be something we would like to adopt. Western culture is ever-changing. Just 100 years ago, American culture was more similar to Muslim culture than it is now. Cultures change. We pick what we like and discard what we don't. If there are things from Arab or other Muslim nations' cultures that we like, then we can adopt it. For instance, the Pakistani obsession over higher education in the sciences (e.g. medicine, engineering, computer science, etc) seems to be something more of us Americans should be obsessed with. The whole of the Muslim world has a very deep respect for the matriarchs of the family and keeping family together through thick and thin - something the West is no longer familiar with. I've yet to run into a Muslim family where two brothers don't talk, or where a wedding excludes a bunch of cousins because they just lost touch or whatever.

These are good qualities that we would definitely enjoy here in the West, and I'm sure you'd agree.

Edited by Magister - 27 November 2018 at 2:00pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2018 at 2:33pm
I don't care what people want to do in their homes.

I am talking about the public sphere.

Like the muslims who approached Maxime Bernier in Canada and demanded what he would do for muslims.

His answer was this I am elected to do things for Canadians", Canada provides freedom, equality and right to own private property where you can do what you want within the confines of the law.

The Muslims were affronted and demanded that his caucus eject him.

It affronts me that muslims think their identity as muslims trumps their identity as Canadians.

Why dont they go back to their countries where they can be muslim and see if the three things that Canada provides arent worth having?

To me those 3 things are a lot, they are worth dying for, and they dont understand this because in their societies they havent bled for hundreds of years to have freedom, equality and the right to private property under the law.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2018 at 2:39pm
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/tory-mp-bernier-criticized-for-saying-more-diversity-will-destroy-what-makes-canada-great-1.4050494
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2018 at 9:30pm
That's not the Muslims' fault. That's Canada's fault. And America is following you guys right into that lizard's hole.

It's this current generation's mentality that certain groups deserve special rights because they're not members of the majority. This is insane, and it's just getting worse and worse. Muslims who demand his ejection are just using the same techniques and tactics that entitled left-wing extremists are using. Same happens here in the US with other things, depending on how you feel about a specific 'victim' group. I see nothing wrong with his response based on your paraphrasing. He's the MP for Canadians, not Muslims or Jews or Christians. The Muslims there are jumping on the pop culture politics that got Trump elected.

As for diversity...I agree and disagree with some of the notions brought about by people I would readily call "White Nationalists". While they take an extreme stance against diversity, I do see some of their points and why they respond as they do.

Diversity in and of itself is not a good thing the way we're being made to believe. There's nothing fantastic about being different in and of itself. It is actually damaging if the differences are so great that certain elements within the greater society are demanding their version of the differences be given priority over everyone else's. However, I do promote diversity - I think that everyone should be welcome to our nations and given a fair shake. But when people start feeling ENTITLED to our lands and our civilization, that's where problems start.

In this regard, Rock, I would agree with you - assimilate or leave. I'm not saying women shouldn't wear hijabs, or Muslims shouldn't pray in public or anything of that sort - that's freedom of religion and is allowed for everyone. I'm talking about creating divisions within a nation, demanding special rights (e.g., "Treat us better because we belong to such-and-such group!"), or even showing hostility to the host nation and its members. I didn't like the approach of Muslims like Sarsour, for instance. She played with identity politics and I felt that led to more divisions than helped.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2018 at 7:37pm
What is wrong with white nationalism? I support the creation of a state for white, European Christians.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2018 at 4:28pm
I had a much more lengthy response, but I'm afraid it might go against community guidelines, so I'm going to paraphrase what I was typing originally:

White Nationalism makes no sense.

European nationalism, on the other hand, makes more sense and I can support that. Nations in Europe are entitled to preserve their heritage and culture and civilization just as every other ethnic nation is permitted to. But it wasn't the world's decision for Europe to take in all those migrants. It was Europeans trying to be progressive who made that decision. To this day, they consistently vote for progressive leaders. They protest the arrests of migrant criminals. In the UK, they were hiding the crimes done by Indian/Pakistani gangs so as not to appear offensive or racist. The Europeans don't want nationalism. White guys a half-world away want it.

We were having somewhat similar problems here in the US with illegal migrants coming here in hordes, forming gangs, committing crimes, etc. Then the majority of Americans of all colors/ethnicities got sick and tired of it and voted for Trump - the only president who wouldn't suffer severe repercussions if he spoke frankly against the overly progressive movements in our nation. So now we have armed soldiers on our border with orders to shoot those trying to illegally come here (granted, the migrants have to throw a rock first lol), and we're rounding up everyone who was here illegally all this time and sending them back whether they're from Latin America or Europe or anywhere else in the world. This isn't their country and they need to respect our borders and laws.

But America was always inherently diverse as a nation. Since its earliest days, there were multiple races and ethnic groups present. So I'm fine with America allowing people from everywhere in the world as long as they come legally and contribute to our nation and society. Illegally coming here is out of the question in my view. No one is entitled to America except those who are legal citizens (native or non-native). But everyone should be entitled to be candidates for American citizenship regardless of homeland or mother tongue as long as they're not themselves criminals, rapists, etc.

How do you define white nationalism? Does your definition overlap with my own definition for European nationalism? I'm assuming you would include Canada and the US as white nations (which I wouldn't, despite majorities and contributions).
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2018 at 4:31pm
In short, I would've been ok with European nationalism if it was a few decades ago. But Europe made the choice to become multicultural and diverse, and for that reason I think it's too late for Europe and I wouldn't support European nationalism anymore for the simple reason that it already opened its doors to the world and there are substantially large subcultures growing and taking over. Leave them be. Europe made its bed, now it has to lay in it. You can't forcibly remove people that were allowed there originally. It's their home now. Now the Europeans need to learn to play nice or to out-reproduce other ethnic groups if they don't want to become a thing of history.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2018 at 9:56pm
This is a very complex subject.

Suffice it to say that I would vote to preserve the judeo christian largely European culture of north america.

I am uninterested in anyone being here that wants to change that, and I am happy to support anyone who doesnt want to change that.

This does pose a conundrum for muslims, because literally I am saying I am not going to be happy until you are like us, and we know the quran warns muslims against that.
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