Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Current Events
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : Current Events
Message Icon Topic: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 4 Next >>
Author Message
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Topic: Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    Posted: 10 December 2018 at 1:50pm
Today, 12/10/2018 is the 70th anniversary of the United Nations general assembly passing the UDHR The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 18 is of particular interest to Muslims. It says that all people have the right to freedom of religion and that genuine freedom of religion NECESSARILY includes the right to change your religion for any reason you see fit. That particular article is the reason Saudi Arabia and some other Muslim countries refuse to ratify this document. Muslim scholars and governments of Muslim majority nations should support this document by guaranteeing all individual Muslims the absolute right to leave Islam for any reason they see fit but of course those governments and scholars will not do that because the UDHR is against Islam. Islamic scholars drafted a response document called the Universal Islamic Declaration on Human Rights which guarantees individual religious freedom but dances around the subject of Muslims right to leave Islam. It does not say Muslims can leave Islam it doesn't say they can it dishonestly dances around the question like Muslims clerics and individuals do whenever this subject is brought up by nonMuslims.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2018 at 3:01pm
I never heard of a faithful Muslim that wanted to leave Islam. Sounds like an oxymoron to me..

And they're free to make any choice they want - no one's stopping them.

Edited by Magister - 16 December 2018 at 3:01pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2018 at 3:04pm
There were several "Muslims" on here that later renounced their religions. Shame. But they were probably never truly Muslim in heart in order for them to just suddenly reject the faith. Some people go through phases in life, others find benefit in belonging to social circles they would otherwise not be associated with, and still others have no idea what Islam teaches in detail and just convert based on emotions(?). I don't know. I don't have any issue personally with someone leaving Islam - it doesn't affect me. I don't think other Muslims should be upset by this either - maybe sad for them, but it's their choice, their life, not ours.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2018 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Magister

I never heard of a faithful Muslim that wanted to leave Islam. Sounds like an oxymoron to me..

And they're free to make any choice they want - no one's stopping them.


In western secular countries no one is stopping them. But the issue here is the main objection Muslim countries have to the UDHR is article which states that genuine religious freedom necessarily includes the right to leave the religion he/she belongs too. Not a single Muslim majority country guarantees Muslims freedom to leave Islam if they choose too. This is wrong. Muslims respond by saying guaranteeing Muslims that freedom is against Islam. That means Islam itself is wrong about this particular issue.Google ex Muslims there many websites advocating rights of ex Muslims.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2018 at 1:29pm
Islam is never wrong.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2018 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Magister

Islam is never wrong.


So, you ARE in favor of denying individual Muslims the freedom to leave Islam.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2018 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Magister

There were several "Muslims" on here that later renounced their religions. Shame. But they were probably never truly Muslim in heart in order for them to just suddenly reject the faith. Some people go through phases in life, others find benefit in belonging to social circles they would otherwise not be associated with, and still others have no idea what Islam teaches in detail and just convert based on emotions(?). I don't know. I don't have any issue personally with someone leaving Islam - it doesn't affect me. I don't think other Muslims should be upset by this either - maybe sad for them, but it's their choice, their life, not ours.



How could you possibly know that they were not real committed Muslims. It sounds like because you don't like Muslims leaving Islam so you want it to be that they never were really committed. How could you know That? If you really think no one is stopping Muslims from leaving Islam you need to step out of your fantasy world and go to Mauritania or Afghanistan or Iran and try openly leaving Islam there. Not a single Muslim nation guarantees Muslims freedom to leave Islam. If you think that that should I applaud you. You should speak to your imma and contact the few scholars who say there should be no prohibitions against leaving Islam. Most scholars say rules and laws against apostasy are necessary to deterr Muslims from leaving the religion. If you think they are wrong write to them.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2018 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by Magister

Islam is never wrong.


So, you ARE in favor of denying individual Muslims the freedom to leave Islam.


I never said that - I said that Islam is never wrong. Not sure how you came to your conclusion though.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2018 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Ken7


How could you possibly know that they were not real committed Muslims.


Call it a hunch

Originally posted by Ken7


It sounds like because you don't like Muslims leaving Islam so you want it to be that they never were really committed. How could you know That?


TBH, I don't care either way whether someone leaves Islam or doesn't. I just think that those who really weren't 100% in it leave...yes, they can act it out or whatever, but it doesn't make sense to me that someone would leave the Truth. I don't know anything, only Allah truly knows.

Originally posted by Ken7


If you really think no one is stopping Muslims from leaving Islam you need to step out of your fantasy world and go to Mauritania or Afghanistan or Iran and try openly leaving Islam there.


I wouldn't go to any of those countries no matter WHAT religion they follow. Shocking you'd choose 3rd world, impoverished cultures in order to make a point. But then again, without those horrible, impoverished countries, you'd have little to use for arguments. Either way, what happens in certain countries is a mix of religion, culture, social needs/desires, and more. If I'm not mistaken, Afghan culture also allows for men to sleep with little boys - something that anyone being fair with their words would say is far from Islamic.

Originally posted by Ken7


Not a single Muslim nation guarantees Muslims freedom to leave Islam.


Not a single Muslim nation has a Caliph either...so what?

Originally posted by Ken7


You should speak to your imma and contact the few scholars who say there should be no prohibitions against leaving Islam. Most scholars say rules and laws against apostasy are necessary to deterr Muslims from leaving the religion. If you think they are wrong write to them.


I think the pope is wrong - should I write to him too? If I wrote to everyone I thought was wrong, I'd be writing letters for the rest of my life. That's not realistic now is it?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2018 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by Magister

Islam is never wrong.


So, you ARE in favor of denying individual Muslims the freedom to leave Islam.


I never said that - I said that Islam is never wrong. Not sure how you came to your conclusion though.


Because you said Islam is never wrong after I showed that the vast majority of Islamic scholars oppose guaranteeing Muslims right to leave Islam. So it would make for me to think you agree with Islamic authorities. If you are going to those scholars are wrong then your disagreement is with them not me. Bring that up to your fellow Muslims
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2018 at 10:09am
There's a difference between me saying that Islam is never wrong and me saying I disagree with so-and-so. Humans differ in their views. My view can be incorrect, and another's could be correct. I've heard arguments that there is no law against leaving Islam while others maintain there is. Still others (perhaps the majority I've come across) point out that leaving Islam in the early days was not about apostasy and more about treason, which should rightfully be punished. In this regards, I'm in full agreement.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 29 December 2018 at 11:55am
Since there are some teachings Muslims disagree among themselves about what the true teaching is then it doesn't seem meaningful to say "Islam is never wrong".
If leaving Islam is considered treason that is the absolutely the best argument for keeping civil authority independent of religious authority.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2019 at 12:39pm
Well, you have to remember, it was considered such at a different time - when becoming a Muslim meant getting Muhammad (saws) and the Muslims as allies. People typically left Islam in order to leave the alliance and work with the enemy. This is where the discrepancy in modern times comes - whether they were being punished solely for leaving the religion, or if they were being punished for what they did upon leaving the religion. Some (especially the ones we hear about most in the West) favor leaving the religion as the impetus for punishment. This makes sense to some extent since there are hadiths that say that the person who leaves their religion should die. On the other hand, the other explanation also makes sense since there are instances of Muslims leaving Islam and going about their lives peacefully and they weren't punished. I think that when you hear all the possible explanations and read all the evidence, it becomes clear that the very religion (the ONLY religion I can think of) that promotes FREEDOM of religion would not then punish someone for making a religious choice.

Consider this:

The jurist Imam Ibnul Humam (d. 681 AH) wrote in his book Fathul Qadir:

The reason to kill an apostate is only with the intent to eliminate the danger of war, and not for the reason of his disbelief. The punishment of disbelief is far greater with God. Therefore, only such an apostate shall be killed who is actively engaged in war; and usually it is a man, and not a woman. For the same reason, the Holy Prophet has forbidden to kill women. And for this very reason, an apostate female could be killed if she in fact instigates and causes war by her influence and armed force at her disposal. She is not killed because of her apostasy, but for her creating disorder (through war) on earth.

 Imam Ibnul Humam[55]

Contemporary Islamic Shafi`i jurists such as the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[99][100] and fiqh scholar Taha Jabir Alalwani[101] along with Shi'a jurists such as Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri[102] and Grand Ayatollah Hussein Esmaeel al-Sadr[103] and some jurists, scholars and writers of other Islamic sects,[who?] have argued or issued fatwas that the changing of religion is not punishable, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[citation needed] However others have successfully argued that the majority view, in both the past and the present, wasn't a severe punishment for mere apostasy.[104]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#What_constitutes_apostasy_in_Islam
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2019 at 12:41pm
Either way, Islam is still perfect and never wrong - it's just us Muslims that might get things wrong for whatever reason. Maybe we're in a rush to come to a conclusion, maybe there's personal gain we get for a conclusion, or maybe we're just ignorant and draw such conclusions. Like in science, when you hear another perspective and there's evidence for it, you're kinda obligated as a Muslim to accept it - which is why over the years I've heard different arguments and shifted my position according to where I found the most evidence and/or the most logic/sense.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Page  of 4 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.