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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 5:25pm
If you admit that everything in this universe had a beginning, and that for every effect there is a cause, then you yourself admit into believing in a creator of some sort - some kind of "cause". The difference between you and me is that I'm not living in denial, I'll readily accept the Creator as not only existing but also as being the One we should all turn to.

And like most people, you seem to admit that there was a cause to our universe through one part of your mouth, but out the other goes "Well, I bet you can't explain who created God?!"

Logic and the laws of nature apply only up to the beginning of the universe, and only up to the edges of the actual universe. Whatever created the universe is obviously not a part of the universe, just as a computer software engineer is not a part of the video game he creates. Even though the engineer and the simulation both exist simultaneously, and the engineer has influence over the software while the software cannot access the world/universe outside the simulation as readily. (Sounds like Deja Vu, no?)

Originally posted by Ken7


It could just as easily be that the universe or cosmos itself is eternal with no need of some outside entity to start it.


Most scientific evidence and even logic say that this isn't true. In fact, such a claim would require far more evidence given that we've never seen such a thing before and it goes against everything we know about the universe (unlike the argument that there is a Creator). We can explain thoroughly how planets formed, we can measure the rates at which the universe expands, we can even pinpoint with a rough amount of accuracy just when the universe came into being as we know it. Some of our technology still picks up remnants of our creation (e.g., some TV static). So, there's an emphatic NO that the universe "could just as easily" be eternal without an external entity.

As for an absolute beginning, that's not dealing with our universe. That's dealing with the era before our universe came into being. I never made the claim that the creation of our universe was the mark of our absolute beginning. In fact, my arguments tend to hint that it's not. After all, I believe in a Creator who existed PRIOR to our universe. And this is not only highly plausible in scientific circles, but even embraced in some form or another (though not in the form of an entity called God). We are speaking about our universe, our time. Our brains are not evolved to understand things outside this universe.



Edited by Magister - 20 January 2019 at 5:27pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 10:45pm
The word "creator" implies an entity with will and intention so it is laughable to say that if the big bang was caused by natural causes that those causes are a kind of "creator" and thus "ha ha ha I got you, you DO believe in a creator after all". It sounds to me like you are playing word games here. Everything we observe in this world that has a beginning came from something else so it is logical to conclude that your god if it exists at all had to have been created by something else. You don't get to exempt god from that just because you want too you to need a reason to say god is eternal and did not have a beginning. What basis there for saying the laws of logic don't apply to a god or "outside the universe"   plus how do you get "outside the universe" your god could not have created the universe unless he/she/it exists in the first place and you have not established the existence of anything supernatural.   
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 4:52pm
creator[kree-ey-ter]
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGIN
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR creator ON THESAURUS.COM
noun
a person or thing that creates.

Originally posted by Ken7

The word "creator" implies an entity with will and intention so it is laughable to say that if the big bang was caused by natural causes that those causes are a kind of "creator" and thus "ha ha ha I got you, you DO believe in a creator after all". It sounds to me like you are playing word games here.


I sense defeat, as you are anticipating what possible wins I'll claim over you in the scenario that you admit I'm correct (which I am). Your inferring of an "entity" is on you - as the dictionary.com definition above is posted and includes a person OR a thing. And if that's too difficult of a word to use, we can use the word "cause", where the inherent ambiguity of the word leads to less ambiguity as to whether a conscious or non-conscious force is being referenced.

But, as it stands now, it seems you agree with me that there is indeed a Creator/Cause to the universe. I call Him Allah and you might call Him "natural phenomena". But ultimately, you and I are both viewing the same "Cause" - I just know more about it than you do (or so I believe).

Originally posted by Ken7


Everything we observe in this world that has a beginning came from something else so it is logical to conclude that your god, if it exists at all, had to have been created by something else. You don't get to exempt god from that just because you want too you to need a reason to say god is eternal and did not have a beginning. What basis there for saying the laws of logic don't apply to a god or "outside the universe"   plus how do you get "outside the universe" your god could not have created the universe unless he/she/it exists in the first place and you have not established the existence of anything supernatural.   


God is the Creator of the universe, that means He existed before the universe. If that's the case, how then can he be a part of the universe? And if He's not part of the universe, how the heck could you hold the same laws that apply here to Him? You can't because He existed for who knows how long without those laws applying to Him, am I right?

And if you're up to date with science news, it's highly possible for there to exist an existence outside this universe. While string theory may be losing the spotlight in recent years due to its ever-growing complexity, it's widely accepted in physics that there exists the theoretical "extra-dimensions" or parallel universes. So don't act like this is all "far-fetched" and "scientifically implausible". It's not. In fact, the more and more science advances, we're uncovering more and more evidence that supports a universe that the scriptures described. Till recently, popular opinion thought the universe was eternal. Till recently, parallel worlds was an impossibility and only found in religious and fictional stories.

Now, the burden of proof is not on me to prove there is a Creator/Cause - that is self-evident. The burden of proof I have is to demonstrate that this Creator/Cause is Allah. And of course I work with evidence, not "proofs". The only field that deals with proofs as far as I'm concerned is mathematics. Science rejects the notion of "proof" since science doesn't try to prove anything. So asking me to "prove" something is unfair given that you'll perfectly accept a scientific theory that merely has the word theory and has no proof. Instead, we need to work with something called "evidence".

And for evidence, I'd ask you to read the Quran .
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 6:28pm
"god", whatever that is, can't do anything unless it/he/she exists in the first place. Nothing you have said so far in this exchange establishes that a god exists. How the big bang got started is a great mystery. It is not legitamate scientifically to invoke a god to explain the origin of the universe until or unless someone establishes the existence of a god. You can't explain a mystery with another mystery. You also never said what is meant by "outside the universe"
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 9:46pm
We've already established that a Cause exists. There's no getting around that.

Yes, how the Big Bang was started is indeed a mystery.

I am speaking with you about there being a beginning and therefore a Cause. That's a fact.

I am saying Allah (swt) is that Cause - which I believe to be fact, but which can only be demonstrated with evidence, both anecdotal and correlational. I found this evidence by reading the Quran.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 9:55pm
You ever heard of anti-vaxxers?

They are these people who believe this conspiracy that vaccinations cause autism.

Despite scientific evidence available for them to read, they simply come up with excuses and insist that the evidence is false and that vaccinations do indeed cause autism.

No matter what people tell them, pointing them to the sources of evidence, they continue to prevent their children from being vaccinated.

Unfortunately, the rest of us know that this is bad decision-making on their part, and they're engaging in a very, very dangerous pattern of behavior.

Ultimately, the evidence for God is the same - it's available for atheists to view, but instead of viewing the evidence, many of them insist on their own conspiracies and reject all claims of God.

Yet it's plain as day that they too must admit that there was a beginning and therefore a Cause, and that the only difference between them and theists is whether the Cause is an agent of change.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Magister

You ever heard of anti-vaxxers?

They are these people who believe this conspiracy that vaccinations cause autism.

Despite scientific evidence available for them to read, they simply come up with excuses and insist that the evidence is false and that vaccinations do indeed cause autism.

No matter what people tell them, pointing them to the sources of evidence, they continue to prevent their children from being vaccinated.

Unfortunately, the rest of us know that this is bad decision-making on their part, and they're engaging in a very, very dangerous pattern of behavior.

Ultimately, the evidence for God is the same - it's available for atheists to view, but instead of viewing the evidence, many of them insist on their own conspiracies and reject all claims of God.

Yet it's plain as day that they too must admit that there was a beginning and therefore a Cause, and that the only difference between them and theists is whether the Cause is an agent of change.


It can be demonstrated that vaccines prevent diseases and that autism is not caused by them. If you could demonstrate the existence of a God that isn't caused by something else I would listen but all you done is assert a God exists and that it has to be so. You say your God has no beginning or end where is your evidence?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 3:52pm
If it can be demonstrated, then why aren't anti-vaxxers getting vaccines?

That's exactly my point.

They don't want to read the research or replicate it themselves. They're content with rejecting facts that they don't know yet to be facts while still demanding evidence that vaccines don't cause autism lol. Sound familiar? (cough atheists cough)

And no, I am not merely asserting God exists. I am saying that I believe the ultimate cause of all things was Allah, and I believe this for several reasons, but one that is most readily available to you is the Quran.

Just as I assert that I don't believe the cause of autism is vaccination, and I believe that conclusion for several reasons, but one of the reasons most readily available might be peer-reviewed journals on the subject which you can read or take your doctor's word on.

The parallels are uncanny.

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 11:07am
You are claiming that I don't believe a god exists because I'm closed minded like anti vaxxers are closed minded about vaccines. The reality is I'm rejecting "god" claim because you have failed to make your case. You said "no, I am not merely asserting that God exists" and then you went on to merely asserting that a god exists and that the Qur'an is one of the reasons. The Qur'an is just a collection of assertions expressing the beliefs of the people who   wrote it.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Ken7


The Qur'an is just a collection of assertions expressing the beliefs of the people who   wrote it.


Just as the anti-Vaxxers would say. Have you ever read it before? It's not that long. Perhaps the size of a Dan Brown novel, give or take?

I've shown you the logic I used to reach the conclusion that we were all created. Then I argued that the Quran is one of the evidence I use to determine that the Creator is a conscious entity.

You don't have to believe in God, I'm not here trying to force everyone wrong to be correct, I'm only showing you how one could have evidence for Allah and quite easily too
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 12:30am
Originally posted by Magister

We've already established that a Cause exists. There's no getting around that.

Yes, how the Big Bang was started is indeed a mystery.

I am speaking with you about there being a beginning and therefore a Cause. That's a fact.

I am saying Allah (swt) is that Cause - which I believe to be fact, but which can only be demonstrated with evidence, both anecdotal and correlational. I found this evidence by reading the Quran.




No matter how much you WANT there to be a first cause which wasn't caused by something else that doesn't mean there is one. Your efforts to exempt your god from needing to be caused have not explained anything. You say atheists can't explain the beginning of the universe because we don't acknowledge a first cause. You are right. But guess what you don't have an actual explanation either just an assertion of a first cause without evidence.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Ken7


No matter how much you WANT there to be a first cause which wasn't caused by something else that doesn't mean there is one.


You've had nothing but evidence shown to you, and you rejected it. So your position is our universe wasn't created, and it follows from that it was either eternal (which science demonstrates isn't so), or doesn't exist (which experience shows isn't so).

Originally posted by Ken7


You say atheists can't explain the beginning of the universe because we don't acknowledge a first cause. You are right. But guess what you don't have an actual explanation either just an assertion of a first cause without evidence.


Everything I said was based on evidence of what we know along with logical conclusions using that evidence. Not knowing is a cop-out at this point.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 9:47pm
then why did you say "we do KNOW' in another thread?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 9:52pm
What is it you are calling evidence? All you have said is everything has to have a cause and then commit the logical fallacy of special pleading that you "god" is independent of the universe and thus did not need to be created but did not point to any evidence that that is in fact true.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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