Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Current Events
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : Current Events
Message Icon Topic: Universal Declaration of Human Rights Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 4 Next >>
Author Message
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Magister

Either way, Islam is still perfect and never wrong - it's just us Muslims that might get things wrong for whatever reason. Maybe we're in a rush to come to a conclusion, maybe there's personal gain we get for a conclusion, or maybe we're just ignorant and draw such conclusions. Like in science, when you hear another perspective and there's evidence for it, you're kinda obligated as a Muslim to accept it - which is why over the years I've heard different arguments and shifted my position according to where I found the most evidence and/or the most logic/sense.


This statement that even though Muslims can't agree on what the proper response to apostasy is Islam is still perfect and never wrong reminds me of the archer who claimed he never missed the bulls eye and was a perfect archer and was never wrong. He would shoot the arrow at a target and then draw the bulls eye around wherever the arrow hit thus achieving a perfect record.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 05 January 2019 at 3:53pm
That analogy doesn't quite work since you're assuming the circle is drawn around the archer's "intentional" target. Islam was designed by Allah, not man. Islam is for us to follow, not the other way around. Islam is perfect. We might miss the mark, but that doesn't mean Islam is imperfect.

To better use your own example, I'll make some changes: the bull's eye is perfect - fair, in the right proportions, allowing anyone to hit it straight on, but some archers might miss while others might get close and still others might land dead on target. It doesn't change the nature of the bull's eye, it just demonstrates how some might miss something that is still fair to hit while others will hit it dead on.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 06 January 2019 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Magister

That analogy doesn't quite work since you're assuming the circle is drawn around the archer's "intentional" target. Islam was designed by Allah, not man. Islam is for us to follow, not the other way around. Islam is perfect. We might miss the mark, but that doesn't mean Islam is imperfect.

To better use your own example, I'll make some changes: the bull's eye is perfect - fair, in the right proportions, allowing anyone to hit it straight on, but some archers might miss while others might get close and still others might land dead on target. It doesn't change the nature of the bull's eye, it just demonstrates how some might miss something that is still fair to hit while others will hit it dead on.



No. I am not assuming the circle is drawn around the archers intended target. The person did not have any intended target. If he drew the bulls eye target before shooting or whatever he is trying to hit target with then he would have a intended target. When he draws the bulls eye around wherever the arrow hits that is a dishonest attempt to say he hit the target. I figure you will say well, how do know he didn't intend the arrow to hit where it did. My answer is we would know if he had drawn the bullseye ahead of time. Saying well, I believe the bullseye is perfect and wherever it landed is what was intended just like Islam is perfect, how do know that? It sounds like it is a matter of faith
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2019 at 3:01pm
No, I didn't misunderstand what you said. That's why I put the word intentional in quotes. It's the target he wants you to think he intended to reach, but it was obviously up to chance/randomness. That's why I'm saying that Islam is a perfect target - anyone can reach it - like equal opportunity - but not everyone does for whatever reason. Maybe they're lazy, maybe they're distracted, maybe they have their own personal target, maybe they don't care where their arrow lands, etc. Islam is perfect.

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2019 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Magister

No, I didn't misunderstand what you said. That's why I put the word intentional in quotes. It's the target he wants you to think he intended to reach, but it was obviously up to chance/randomness. That's why I'm saying that Islam is a perfect target - anyone can reach it - like equal opportunity - but not everyone does for whatever reason. Maybe they're lazy, maybe they're distracted, maybe they have their own personal target, maybe they don't care where their arrow lands, etc. Islam is perfect.



Exactly. So, Islam is perfect just like a person shooting an arrow at a tree, drawing a bullseye around where it hit after the fact and declaring that's what he intended to hit all along. Reminds me of people who say the I Jing is perfect or Tarot is perfect just
some peoples interpretations can be wrong, it sounds like a good way to deceive oneself.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
a well wisher  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 8577
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote a well wisher Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2019 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Ken7


Originally posted by Magister

That's why I'm saying that Islam is a perfect target - anyone can reach it - like equal opportunity - but not everyone does for whatever reason.

Exactly. So, Islam is perfect just like a person shooting an arrow at a tree, drawing a bullseye around where it hit after the fact and declaring that's what he intended to hit all along.

Reminds me of people who say the I Jing is perfect or Tarot is perfect just
some peoples interpretations can be wrong, it sounds like a good way to deceive oneself.


Hello brother Ken

Interesting exchange of views...

If i may add something ....hopefully it is ok with brother Magister...

Fundamentally the marksman aims at himself as said by Suzuki

Islam means to reconcile in peace with God...there is no deception but an honest effort to hit the mark -to enter that peace....the peace that has always been there ready to be recognized but for whatever reason deferred to be probed into.

We are not perfect, God is perfect.So everyone's level of hitting the target - that spot within themselves that houses the Truth and thus brings peace is according to the state and effort of the individual.
La ilaha ill-Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2019 at 6:57am
Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by Magister

No, I didn't misunderstand what you said. That's why I put the word intentional in quotes. It's the target he wants you to think he intended to reach, but it was obviously up to chance/randomness. That's why I'm saying that Islam is a perfect target - anyone can reach it - like equal opportunity - but not everyone does for whatever reason. Maybe they're lazy, maybe they're distracted, maybe they have their own personal target, maybe they don't care where their arrow lands, etc. Islam is perfect.



Exactly. So, Islam is perfect just like a person shooting an arrow at a tree, drawing a bullseye around where it hit after the fact and declaring that's what he intended to hit all along. Reminds me of people who say the I Jing is perfect or Tarot is perfect just
some peoples interpretations can be wrong, it sounds like a good way to deceive oneself.


No - the bullseye is already stationed somewhere, and if the arrow misses, they might THINK they hit it, but they still missed. The bullseye is fixed, stationary. There's no drawing it around arrows that already landed.

As for Tarot/I Jing, that's different. In Tarot/I Jing, the diviner is attempting to read oracles, and if they get it wrong, they'll usually do one of several things: a) admit they misunderstood what they were reading, b) admit that the practice might be nonsense after all (very rare), c) try to fit what actually happened with their oracle no matter how much stretching needs to be done, d) argue that their oracle didn't come to pass yet or that it's being represented in a different way, or e) claim that destiny is malleable and therefore the oracle did not need to come to pass because the querent made the appropriate changes in advance.

That's not what's being said here for Islam. None of that except for a). In a), the diviner is saying that the oracle is still correct, he/she just did not yet decipher it correctly. That is more or less the claim I'm making - that Islam is perfect, even if some (or many) of us are not interpreting/understanding it correctly. The difference between Tarot/I Jing and Islam is rather obvious - one is man-made, the other is from the Creator of the universe.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 10:39am
Islam is not perfect just because you SAY it is or just because you SAY that some supposed god says it is. What basis do you for saying Islam is perfect other than some book saying it is?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by Ken7

Islam is not perfect just because you SAY it is or just because you SAY that some supposed god says it is. What basis do you for saying Islam is perfect other than some book saying it is?


Islam is perfect because the Creator of the universe says it is. After all, who would know except for Him, the Omniscient? So, therefore I believe it to be true.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Ken7

Islam is not perfect just because you SAY it is or just because you SAY that some supposed god says it is. What basis do you for saying Islam is perfect other than some book saying it is?


Islam is perfect because the Creator of the universe says it is. After all, who would know except for Him, the Omniscient? So, therefore I believe it to be true.


That statement does not answer the questin: "How do you know Islam is perfect?". That is another claim you need to back up with evidence. First, you claimed that Islam is perfect, then you claimed there is a "creator of the universe" whatever that is and that he/she/it says Islam is perfect. Now what actual EVIDENCE can you point too to establish that those 3 claims are in fact so?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Ken7


That statement does not answer the questin: "How do you know Islam is perfect?".


I don't "know", I believe. It's a statement of belief.

Originally posted by Ken7


First, you claimed that Islam is perfect, then you claimed there is a "creator of the universe" whatever that is


If you don't believe there is a creator to the universe, you would be too ill-informed on reality in order to discuss things with in any significant length. In reality, you DON'T believe there is a lack of a creator, you simply cannot tell me who/what it is. Let's not fool ourselves here, everybody believes there to be a creator of the universe - atheists, theists, and everyone in between. The difference is that on one side of the spectrum, I believe the creator is a conscious entity, while the militant atheist might believe the creator to be unconscious phenomena.

Your argument should therefore become whether I have evidence to support my belief that He is a conscious entity with volitional capacity.

Edited by Magister - 19 January 2019 at 6:13pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Ken7


That statement does not answer the questin: "How do you know Islam is perfect?".


I don't "know", I believe. It's a statement of belief.

Originally posted by Ken7


First, you claimed that Islam is perfect, then you claimed there is a "creator of the universe" whatever that is


If you don't believe there is a creator to the universe, you would be too ill-informed on reality in order to discuss things with in any significant length. In reality, you DON'T believe there is a lack of a creator, you simply cannot tell me who/what it is. Let's not fool ourselves here, everybody believes there to be a creator of the universe - atheists, theists, and everyone in between. The difference is that on one side of the spectrum, I believe the creator is a conscious entity, while the militant atheist might believe the creator to be unconscious phenomena.

Your argument should therefore become whether I have evidence to support my belief that He is a conscious entity with volitional capacity.



Thank you informing me about what I really believe. Actually, no I do NOT think there is a creator of the universe which I just don't know what it is. The claim that there is a creator of the universe needs to be supported with evidence. The big bang theory is the current accepted theory of how this universe started but it doesn't tell anything about the origin of whatever it was that "banged" . God believers like to say "well you get something from nothing" but how do we know there ever was absolute nothingness. It might be that it is impossible for there to be nothing therefore the cosmos is eternal there it doesn't need a "creator" to get it started. Of course research continues maybe someday we will have some actual answers about the great mystery of the origin of the universe. What evidence supports belief in a conscious creator?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5223
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 1:12am
Ken, evidence is all around you - there is a beginning to everything. Name me one thing thing for which there is not a beginning, and then you would dispel this evidence. By that very evidence, you admit that there was a beginning, and therefore there must've been a "beginner" that began it all - whatever it is, you may be agnostic to, but you have evidence coming out the wazoo that there was a creator. Don't deny that.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Ken7  
Freshman
Freshman
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Secular Humanist)
Posts: 56
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 9:52am
Yes, everything we observe that begins came from something else. So, if everything has to be caused by something else then your God would logically have to be caused by something else and that entity also ad infinitum. You of course will say no no no the original creator is eternal without beginning outside of space and time all powerful omniscient. But what does that even mean? How do you get outside of space and time? It could just as easily be that the universe or cosmos itself is eternal with no need of some outside entity to start it. It has not been established that there was an absolute original b3leginning. You God cannot do anything unless he/she/it actually exists and it has not been established that any god/goddess exists
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 4 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.