Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
InterReligious Dialogue
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : InterReligious Dialogue  
Message Icon Topic: Does Jesus Talk About Muhammad in the Bible? Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27701
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Topic: Does Jesus Talk About Muhammad in the Bible?
    Posted: 30 December 2018 at 2:25am

One of the most important of the prophecies in the New Testament appears in the writings of John. Prophet Jesus, may peace and blessings be upon him, speaks of the Paraclete that will come after him.

In Greek, it’s Periklytos. This word has been translated, in the Gospel of John, to the ‘Comforter’ in the King James Version, the ‘Advocate’ in the Epistle, and the ‘Counselor’ by others. We’ll use the term Paraclete.

Descriptions of the Paraclete and his profile appear in the fourteenth, fifteenth, and sixteenth chapters of the Gospel of John and the Epistle of John.

In chapter 14, verses 15-18 and 26, in chapter 15, verses 26 and 27 and in chapter 16, verses 7 through 15 particularly discuss him.

The passage that discusses him, in the Epistle of John, is the first verse in the second chapter. To begin with, these are the main passages that deal with the Paraclete...

http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/research-studies/jesus-talks-about-muhammad-in-the-bible/


Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Jo M
Freshman
Freshman

Religion: Christian(Protestant)
Posts: 32
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2018 at 11:06am
Paraclete doesn't have an easy translation, but the general sense is of a support worker to someone in need. “Helper” or “one who appears on another’s behalf”, “One called alongside to help”. Someone who gives you advice, someone who does your shopping for you, someone gives you legal support; all of these give you the idea of paraclete.

The problem the link has is that the writer doesn't understand the Christian belief adequately. The Jewish people had a long history of 'interfacing' with God, with exampled like the Presence in the Temple, and the Tabernacle in the Wilderness. Jesus is saying in John 14 that this Presence, this Power, will come into all of us, that we will each be a Temple for the Holy Spirit, which in turn will support/help/advise us to serve God.

This is a new kind of relationship, hence Jesus saying that people had never known the Holy Spirit's presence in this way before.

As such, it clearly doesn't refer to Muhammad,
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27701
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2018 at 2:05am
Thank you Jo for that answer

However, please ponder on the following:

the words of Jesus, in the Book of John (in the verses noted above), talks of the Paraclete as someone who has not yet been sent by the Father and that the world did not know him.

Going back, both to the Old and New Testament, you’ll see that the Holy Ghost is something that was already known before Jesus came. In the story of the baptizing of Jesus, John the Baptist says that he saw the Holy Ghost descending upon Jesus...



Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Jo M
Freshman
Freshman

Religion: Christian(Protestant)
Posts: 32
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2018 at 11:01am
Thanks for the reply.

Firstly,when Jesus says the world doesn't know the Advocate, he's meaning that those who don't follow Jesus don't know the Spirit alongside them as Helper/Advocate/Advisor. The Spirit acted in the world before this, but that radically different knowledge of the Spirit was a completely new and shocking development in our understanding of God. This was very much an event for the future, at Pentecost (Acts 2).

Secondly, this fits with other things Jesus said and did. For example, the parable of the sower (Matthew 13) tells of people “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand”. People who were looking at God, but not knowing Him.

Thirdly, in what sense does “But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you” (also John 14:17) refer to Muhammad?

It does however fit perfectly with the idea of God as Jesus currently with the disciples, and in the future God as Spirit being in them much as He was in the Tabernacle.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5189
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 05 January 2019 at 3:48pm
My personal view, Al, is that the New Testament is too inconsistent in terms of reliability and authenticity in order for me to say with certainty that this is referring to Muhammad (saws). But I do believe that Jesus (as) told his disciples about Muhammad (saws) - maybe not in detail, but in a symbolic way, just as he does in John with the Paraclete.

I'm still an advocate of Matthew 17:11 where they're speaking of Elijah and Jesus confirms that not only did Elijah already come (in the form of John the Baptist), but that he is still going to come (my understanding is in the form of Muhammad). While it's not the actual "Elijah" that appears in John the Baptist or Muhammad, it's the great prophet that is showing up before the coming of Jesus (as).

Remember, when Jesus refers to the third coming of Elijah, he also mentions how Elijah will restore all things. Only Muhammad (saws) did that (though Mormons might argue Joseph Smith did that). Ultimately, though, Jesus himself in the NT left ample room for another prophet to come after him that will "restore" everything. And while Christians like to use different English translations that take away the future reference, the original Greek includes the future reference. And while Christians say that John the Baptist is the last appearance of Elijah, they fail to explain the inconsistency that is present in the passage - that he will restore all things and yet John the Baptist did NOT restore all things.

Finally, we have the two witnesses in Revelation. In the Bible, 2 was symbolic of 1 (two witnesses to constitute ONE strong testimony).

Jesus himself even had to warn his disciples to be aware of false prophets in the future, leaving room that there will be a true prophet among the false ones or else he would've said there will be no more prophets.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Jo M
Freshman
Freshman

Religion: Christian(Protestant)
Posts: 32
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2019 at 3:00am
If you still think that the Paraclete refers to Muhammad, perhaps you could examine the points I make above. They seem to me to show very conclusively that it doesn't.

For Matthew 17:11, the context makes it clear. There is a clear understanding, which is still in modern Judaism, that Elijah must return as a messenger to prepare the way for the Messiah to inaugurate the Kingdom of God. This is a reference to Malachi 4:5,6


Jesus has been asked, 'Why if this unique event event is going to happen, has Elijah not appeared, because that is a scripturally mandated part of the process?'. Jesus replies, “The Scriptures are right about Elijah appearing, and his role in the future restoration of the Kingdom. But it's a reference to John the Baptist”. Adding punctuation: Elijah 'Comes and will restore all things'.

The two witnesses are part of an apocalyptic writing, and as such are symbolic, not literal.


Look, the Early Church were extremely clear on this: Jesus is the unique Son of God who has restored the relationship between humanity, creation and God. There is no expectation of any kind in the Early Church of a next prophet to come. If Jesus had talked about Muhammad then there would be really clear references in the NT or the Church Fathers. But there aren't, and He didn't.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Al-Cordoby  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 27701
Forum Rating: 159
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2019 at 2:24am
Could the early Church be wrong, Jo?

Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Magister
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5189
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2019 at 3:29pm
Jo, Jesus said quite clearly: "And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things;"

This is in the future. Not the past. Yes, John the Baptist was used to symbolize Elijah before the first arrival of Jesus, but who will be the prophet to symbolize him before the SECOND coming? And restore all things? John the Baptist didn't restore anything. But one can argue that Muhammad (saws) did.

As for the paraclete, I understand that the way it is written in the Bible doesn't support it being Muhammad (saws), which is why I mentioned in my post that there's doubts over how accurate the modern versions of the gospels we have to what was actually said/done, so it could be remnants of an actual prophecy to Muhammad (saws).

And the 2 witnesses might or might not be symbolic. They might be a mix of symbolism and literal figures. This is important because Christians are still waiting for that person's (people's) arrival - something that may have already been accomplished with Muhammad (saws).

Let's not forget Deuteronomy's prophet from among the brethren of the Israelites, whom the Jews are waiting for as we can see in the beginning of John, and who was separate from the Messiah (the role played by Jesus).

Lots of ways for Muslims to argue that Muhammad (saws) was foretold in your scriptures.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Jo M
Freshman
Freshman

Religion: Christian(Protestant)
Posts: 32
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2019 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Could the early Church be wrong, Jo?


Thanks for the reply.

The question is not whether they were wrong, but why they weren't even talking about the 'next stage'. If Jesus had made it clear that someone much more significant than him was due up, why is there no evidence of this whatsoever?

Every scrap of evidence we have says that no such conversation took place, or even could have taken place. Given the way that the arrival and purpose of Jesus was prophesied in many places and in many ways, the total lack of prophesy for Muhammad is quite a problem.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Jo M
Freshman
Freshman

Religion: Christian(Protestant)
Posts: 32
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2019 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Magister

Jo, Jesus said quite clearly: "And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things;

<snip>

Lots of ways for Muslims to argue that Muhammad (saws) was foretold in your scriptures.


Thanks for the reply. A few thoughts-

Firstly, as I explained, the use of the future tense about John was that the arrival of the Kingdom of God was still in the future from when Jesus was speaking.

Secondly, whether or not the NT is accurate, there is no evidence at all, in what is written about the Paraclete, that Muhammad is in mind. It's pretty obvious that the arrival of the Holy Spirit in a new way at Pentecost is what John is talking about (see Acts 2).

Thirdly the two witnesses is entirely symbolic. We know this because Jewish Apocalyptic Language is being used, and we know how that operates because there was a lot of it around at the time.

Fourthly, I can assure you that (the overwhelming majority of) Christians are not waiting for anyone's arrival apart from Jesus'.

Finally, the Deuteronomy prophet was Jesus! Jesus had many interlinked roles, one of which was that of prophet. The roles of Messiah and prophet were not mutually exclusive in First Century Judaism (see Luke 24 especially 19,26).

So I'm afraid the problem mentioned above over the lack of evidence pointing to Muhammad still remains.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.