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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Topic: Judaism
    Posted: 16 January 2019 at 2:37pm
I recently encountered a man, a muslim, who told me "Judaism is like going to elementary school, Christianity is like going to high school, Islam is going to University"

I presumed that this has something to do with the chronology of the religions. So I asked him what he meant.

But he actually meant it, in his opinion islam was far more complex than christianity and judaism.

christianity, I get.

But judaism?
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2019 at 2:23am
Hello Rock

Welcome back

Christianity from a Muslim perspective complements Judaism, from a Muslim point of view.

God sent Jesus, peace be upon hm, to guide the lost sheep of Israel.

Through revealing the Injeel (Gospel) to Jesus, God did not reveal a new religion, as Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.

God revealed to Jesus some commands that relaxed some prohibitions in the Jewish Law, like the strict observance of the Sabath.

So we believe that in its original form the Gospel complements the Torah.

Does that make sense and respond to your question?


Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2019 at 6:44am
Originally posted by The_Rock

I recently encountered a man, a muslim, who told me "Judaism is like going to elementary school, Christianity is like going to high school, Islam is going to University"

I presumed that this has something to do with the chronology of the religions. So I asked him what he meant.

But he actually meant it, in his opinion islam was far more complex than christianity and judaism.

christianity, I get.

But judaism?


I would interpret it personally more in a chronological/sequential sense as well.

However, as for complexity, orthodox and even unorthodox Islam, is pretty complex and very deep - perhaps on par with Judaism or falling just short of it if not surpassing it in complexity. As for Christianity, perhaps certain sects are pretty complex like the Mormons or the Catholics/Orthodox, but I think the complexity with religion is why the prophets were sent in the first place.

Jesus (as) criticized the over-emphasis of the laws and traditions - the very things that make Judaism complex. Muhammad (saws) also seemed to stress the bare minimum in order to get into Jennah, frequently criticizing those who were "too religious".

God sent simple messages to us, but we, as humans, tend to make things very complex. And Allahu alim (God knows best), there might be some mundane agendas plaguing those who sought to make the religion more complex.

For instance, in a time when all the Jews knew the Torah inside and out, it might've left rabbis a bit useless and therefore unemployed or unneeded. So then it becomes mandatory to know all the prophets too. When Jews learned all the Torah and all the prophets, and rabbis once again became obsolete, it became mandatory to learn the Talmud (which seems ever growing), etc.

Of course, my last point is merely speculation, but it does seem to be a pattern among the major religions. If the religion was so simple that you didn't need clergy or scholars, lots of people would have to learn a new trade entirely in order to make their bread and butter.

A more likely scenario is that complexity arose due to the need to prevent the homogeny of the religion from suffering - if there are standards everyone can agree on, then we can better and more easily distinguish who is truly following Islam/Christianity/Judaism/Etc and who isn't.

Ultimately, as a Muslim, I wouldn't find "complexity" something to brag about when it comes to religion. In my view, complexity means man-made.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

I recently encountered a man, a muslim, who told me "Judaism is like going to elementary school, Christianity is like going to high school, Islam is going to University"


I interpret what he said not in terms of complexity, but Islam as being the most developed religion of the three, as in its concepts.

Complexity and development are not the same thing. But I don't think his historical-linear analogy is correct. Judaism is far more developed than Christianity, its guidance branches into so many aspects of life. But it is still primitive and crude, designed for ancient times.

Christianity, as Al-Cordoby alluded to, basically because its just based on the Gospel, which is like a supplement to the Torah, have the least guidance of all three faiths. There just isn't much spiritual guidance there. All they have coming directly from God are the tidbits Jesus (AS) gave in his parables. Not a lot to go on.

Islam's concepts are the most developed and fleshed out of the three...it has taken me years of comparative faith study to see this. But your man is absolutely correct, Rock.

It's hard to understand this if your're not a Muslim. But the concepts that Islam shares in common with Judaism and Christianity our faith sheds much more light on. There's more guidance to follow. We aren't left trying to squeeze juice out of crumbs.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:05pm
Judaism is far more developed than Christianity, its guidance branches into so many aspects of life. But it is still primitive and crude, designed for ancient times.


How do you understand this given the challenges that muslims face dealing with the modern age, which Jews tend to negotiate with seemingly far greater ease.
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

How do you understand this given the challenges that muslims face dealing with the modern age, which Jews tend to negotiate with seemingly far greater ease.


I don't agree that Jews have managed modernity with greater ease than Muslims. Orthodox Jews have as much difficulty, if not more, than Muslims with the modern secular order of the Western world. The Jews who have managed well are the liberal sects who have basically abandoned Jewish traditional practices. Turning your back on something and running away isn't managing. That's giving up.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:26pm
Since my wife is a Jew and conservative too, I would argue that your understanding of Judaism is wanting.

Religious Jews view religion fundamentally differently than muslims do.

They view religion as a means to facilitate a healthy and positive way to be in this world, and so will modify the religion to allow them to continue to exist in the world peacefully whilst staying true to the faith.

Muslims tend to not want to change and are paralyzed by the dual notion that Islam is perfect, and bidaa or innovation is sinful.

But that’s really digressing from the point.

I think that Islam does benefit from a prophetic model vis a vis Christianity.

It is lamentable that we lack the details of the life of Jesus that Islam seems to have about Muhammad.

So I do understand your point.

I’m just not sure I agree with the point regarding Judaism.
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

and so will modify the religion to allow them to continue to exist in the world peacefully whilst staying true to the faith.


Bing, the word "modify" is a no-no, Rock. Conservative Judaism is considered sellout by the Orthodox. On another note, I've always thought it fascinating that the four main Jewish branches don't really have theological differences, but are just different by how strictly they observe the truth they hold to.

It's the ultimate con. How do you knowingly cherry pick God's laws to follow, and how strictly to follow them? God made the laws! Our job is just to follow them to the best of our ability, not to declare our wish to only partially follow them from the get go! :O

Muslims don't have any problems with modernity. We don't ride horses anymore, we drive cars. We don't construct mosques out of mud anymore (in at least most more developed Muslim countries). We connect using the Internet. We wear hijabs made of modern materials. But we still follow the faith's rules. We don't change them. That's what I understand you to mean by "modify".
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 12:08am
Again, take it from someone who knows Judaism on a personal level. No one is considered a sell out.

And no Jew follows every Mitzvot they are free to follow what they want.

You may find very “observant” Orthodox Jews and very “observant” Conservative Jews.

And some in both groups who aren’t observant.

What they differ on is how to interpret the laws, but the laws are the same for both groups

When I say muslims have a problem with modernity I don’t mean the trappings of modern life.

I mean a world view that is no longer divided on religious grounds as an example. Legal systems derived from antiquity that seek to define the world in the way the ancient world divided it.

Gender roles that are problematic to say the least.

Denying basic equal rights to men and women, believers and disbelievers.

We see it in action all over the Islamic world.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 3:00am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Judaism is far more developed than Christianity, its guidance branches into so many aspects of life. But it is still primitive and crude, designed for ancient times.


How do you understand this given the challenges that muslims face dealing with the modern age, which Jews tend to negotiate with seemingly far greater ease.


They give up parts of their religion in order to live in modern societies with ease - and there are still infamous sects of them that are only one branch away from the Amish.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

No one is considered a sell out.


Ask an orthodox Jew.

And no Jew follows every Mitzvot they are free to follow what they want.


I'm pretty sure God would not agree with this.

What they differ on is how to interpret the laws, but the laws are the same for both groups


Right, the more liberal groups interpret less strictly. That's why the Jews were cursed by God, it was for open rebellion against his laws. He tells them to do one thing, and they don't do it or they say we don't have to do it or do something else entirely. See how what the Qur'an says about them is manifestly true? Are you making some deeper connections my friend?

I mean a world view that is no longer divided on religious grounds as an example. Legal systems derived from antiquity that seek to define the world in the way the ancient world divided it.


I'm not going to let you sit there and claim to be a true blooded Christian and advocate for a secular world order based on man-made laws rather than religion.

You might hate the Islamic version of societies ordered on the basis of religious law/religion, but you can't be a follower of an Abrahamic faith and be against the concept in principle.

So let me ask you, when Jesus (AS) returns to earth to set things aright, is he going to treat all religions equally, or will he give Christians preference? Is a Hindu polytheist giving the same quality of worship to God that an orthodox Jew might?

It's one thing to say the secular world order is the existing state of affairs and quite another thing to say God would prefer it this way. No believing Jew, Christian or Muslim could say that.

Your view, Rock, is close to what we call Deism, where God simply created the world and humans and doesn't really care how it's run, just leaving humans to figure out the best way to do it among themselves. You obviously feel Western Civilization have come pretty close to accomplishing that. And that view is perfectly fine.

But for the love of God stop calling yourself a Catholic. Remember what Jesus (AS) said about the log in your own eye? Can't you see your own hypocrisy?

Edited by Shenango - 20 January 2019 at 12:27pm
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 5:35pm
Shenango, perfect response - and one that applies to most Christians/Jews I've been running into. Even the ones who think that the United States was founded on ancient Jewish laws . They are secularists through and through with the exception of believing in some spiritual beings. They are anti-Bible, anti-Abrahamic religion. They'd just as readily cast out a Christian following the Bible to the tee as they would a Muslim or atheist. It's because their priority is not to follow the Bible, but to follow man-made laws and to claim they are from the Bible.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 2:31pm

And no Jew follows every Mitzvot they are free to follow what they want.
I'm pretty sure God would not agree with this.


Well you are neither jew nor God, so I will just not bother with this comment



Right, the more liberal groups interpret less strictly. That's why the Jews were cursed by God, it was for open rebellion against his laws. He tells them to do one thing, and they don't do it or they say we don't have to do it or do something else entirely. See how what the Qur'an says about them is manifestly true? Are you making some deeper connections my friend?


Ugh, this was such an islamo centric perspective, its beyond absurd.

If you mean do I see the quran or islam any differently, you will not be surprised to know that I don't.

I have long ago concluded is observably false. I dont see much to debate over there. The issue is, how does one get along with people for whom it is the only truth.

My interest is simply to exchange and provoke thoughts in muslims, I have no interest in actually converting them or having them attempt to convert me to islam.



I'm not going to let you sit there and claim to be a true blooded Christian and advocate for a secular world order based on man-made laws rather than religion.

You might hate the Islamic version of societies ordered on the basis of religious law/religion, but you can't be a follower of an Abrahamic faith and be against the concept in principle.



I can because I am christian. You know as little about christianity as you do about judaism


So let me ask you, when Jesus (AS) returns to earth to set things aright, is he going to treat all religions equally, or will he give Christians preference? Is a Hindu polytheist giving the same quality of worship to God that an orthodox Jew might?



Yes



It's one thing to say the secular world order is the existing state of affairs and quite another thing to say God would prefer it this way. No believing Jew, Christian or Muslim could say that.


and yet the vast majority of jews and christians choose secular countries and the strangest thing is muslims do too or they wouldnt be flooding the west.

Since when are you a spokesperson for God?

If God ordained a public way to be, he would have given us one religion to follow.

But even islam accepts that other religions exist.

And since islamic law differs from other laws, God allows for some laws or no laws even according to islam.


Edited by The_Rock - 21 January 2019 at 4:26pm
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by TheRock


and yet the vast majority of jews and christians choose secular countries and the strangest thing is muslims do too or they wouldnt be flooding the west.


Couple of reasons for this:

1) Many people want freedom from their religion and only want to maintain it for identity or traditional reasons (if at all).

2) Many people are afraid of a different sect coming into power and targeting their sect for persecution or worse.

3) Money drives people to migrate - people don't migrate to poor secular nations like Panama. They go where the money is, which is predominantly secular nations. What was that parable Jesus (as) gave about money? It being the root of all evil? Or that you cannot serve TWO MASTERS without offending one or the other? That may apply here.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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