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InterReligious Dialogue
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 12:06am
Originally posted by The_Rock

I can because I am christian. You know as little about christianity as you do about judaism{/QUOTE]

Care to enlighten me?

[quote]
So let me ask you, when Jesus (AS) returns to earth to set things aright, is he going to treat all religions equally, or will he give Christians preference? Is a Hindu polytheist giving the same quality of worship to God that an orthodox Jew might?


Wow, Jesus (AS) has no religious favorites, huh?
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 1:05pm
No. Not according to the catholic understanding of the faith.

Please read.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 9:27pm
Rock, so the Catholic understanding of the faith allows for Muslims to enter heaven without being baptized or members of the RCC?

Sweet! Now I can cross that, Judaism, and the various pagan religions off my list!
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Jo M
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2019 at 4:49pm
There's a vital point been missed in all this. Christianity is Judaism. St Paul is crystal clear on that point in his writing.

The key difference is that Christians believe that God's promises to Abraham and the Jewish people were completed in Jesus; and that Jesus was the presence of God amongst His people that had been long expected.

Christianity is Judaism with some boxes ticked.
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2019 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Jo M

There's a vital point been missed in all this. Christianity is Judaism.


Well, Christianity certainly employs Jewish theology as its own backbone, but I balk at anyone who fails to notice the reformations to it that were made by Paul while at the same time explaining that all Jesus (AS) was doing was completing it. What Paul claimed and what Paul did are two different things. I think most people recognize Christianity as a separate religion from Judaism, and with good reason.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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Jo M
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2019 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Shenango

What Paul claimed and what Paul did are two different things.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. Paul lived his life by his beliefs- and suffered terribly for it (2 Cor 11),

I think most people recognize Christianity as a separate religion from Judaism, and with good reason.


The reasons that most people think they are separate religions are due to subsequent centuries of history, in which Christianity lost sight of its roots. This has become down the time a pretty much fixed idea in peoples minds, but that's not at all how it was in the first century, as modern scholarship has confirmed.

For example, the Christmas story. Please read the first two chapters of Luke's gospel, and you will see how this 'Christian' story is deeply, deeply rooted in the Jewish story, and the promise to Abraham.

For example, the opening to John's Gospel, a direct comparison to the opening to Genesis.

For example, the disciples continued to use the Temple for worship (Acts).

And so on. Jesus' role only makes sense in the full context of Judaism. Christianity is not a new religion, but it is Judaism which claims that Jesus is at the centre of the story of Israel.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 19 February 2019 at 3:21am
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant. (61:14)

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (2:124)

We had already taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and had sent to them messengers. Whenever there came to them a messenger with what their souls did not desire, a party [of messengers] they denied, and another party they killed. (5:70)
------------

And that was Our [conclusive] argument which We gave Abraham against his people. We raise by degrees whom We will. Indeed, your Lord is Wise and Knowing.

And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.

And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous.

And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.

And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path.

That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing. (6:83-88)


Edited by ishammad - 19 February 2019 at 3:26am
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Jo M
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 21 February 2019 at 12:28pm
There's an awful lot to agree with in those quotes.

O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant. (61:14)


I wonder if you, or others, could help me. What do you understand this to mean?

Thank you.
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 22 February 2019 at 7:33pm
Supporter of Allah: This support, God forbid, is not in the sense that these people fulfill some need of Allah for which He requires their help, but it is in the sense that these people participate in the cause which Allah wills to accomplish through His Prophets and His Books instead of His great power and might.

As regard to the two factions, some scholars said that this could go to one of two meanings:

1. The faction that believed in Jesus are the Christians in general (those who were straight and those in whose beliefs diversions entered), so God supported them against the Jews, who didn't believe in Jesus (pbuh) in the first place.

2. The faction that believe are those who adhered to monotheism against those who deified Jesus or divert from monotheism. Here (prevailed) means either prevailed by argument/proofing/reasoning or that the monotheism they adhered to, God prevailed with this last religion (Islam). i.e. Islam confirmed their right belief.
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 23 February 2019 at 7:08am
Originally posted by Jo M

………….


Welcome to the Forum.

‘You who believe, be Allāh’s helpers. As Jesus, son of Mary, said to the disciples, ‘Who will come with me to help Allāh?’ The disciples said, ‘We shall be Allāh’s helpers.’ Some of the Children of Israel believed and some disbelieved: We supported the believers against their enemy and they were the ones who came out on top.’ (Al-Saff: 16).

Professor M.A.S. Abdel Haleem reminds us that this Medinan sūrah encourages the Muslims to work together in support of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s cause. He writes:

‘(The sūrah) criticizes those who broke their word and those who argued against the faith. Moses and Jesus are cited as examples of prophets whose communities were divided: the rebellious were left to stray and the faithful granted success. The rewards of those who strive in God’s cause are described in some detail.’ (‘The Qur’an’).

Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

‘Be helpers of God indicates being helpers for God’s religion and His Prophet, since God has no need of human assistance. As helpers is here a noun rather than a verb….If you help God, He will help you, it implies that to be a believer is to be a helper of God at all times. Those who are helpers of God are then likened to Jesus’ apostles, whose name in Arabic, ‘ḥawāriyyūn’, is thought by some to indicate purity. While some maintain that ‘ḥawāriyyūn’ is from the Ethiopic ‘ḥawārya’ meaning ‘apostle,’ others see it as deriving from the word ‘ḥawwara’, meaning ‘to transform’ or ‘to whiten’. The title could thus refer to those who transform and purify the souls of people by guiding them in religion and knowledge.

‘The ‘ḥawāriyyūn’ are also said to be those who are fully devoted to a prophet and are thus purified from any faults. The Prophet is reported to have said, “Every prophet has his apostle (‘ḥawārī’), and my apostle is Zubayr”.   

‘A group among the Israelites then confirmed the prophethood of Jesus, while others disbelieved. According to many commentators, those who disbelieved includes not only those who rejected Jesus, but also those who maintained that Jesus was God as well as those who maintained that he was the son of God.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

Nasr cites the following works:

Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī’s ‘al-Tafsīr al-kabīr.’

Abū ʿAlī al-Faḍl ibn al-Ḥasan al-Ṭabrisī’s ‘Majmaʿ al-bayān fī tafsīr al-Qurʾān.’

Al-Rāghib al-Iṣfahānī’s ‘Mufradāt alfāẓ al-Qurʾān.’

I hope this helps.


Edited by Niblo - 23 February 2019 at 7:10am
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Jo M
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 24 February 2019 at 9:47am
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant. (61:14)


Thanks for the replies, which were indeed helpful.

The helpers of God thing seems pretty clear. Where I'm struggling a bit is the statement that those who believed became dominant.

Perhaps if we start with ishammad meaning 2 above (also Niblo's approach).

Those in the Early Church who maintained Jesus was not a God left little trace and in no meaningful sense became dominant.

Alternatively, to say that it refers to the founding of Islam 600 years later seems to me to be reading something into the phrase that just isn't there.

The section is talking about the Jesus events, and to say 'We supported those who believed against their enemy' means '600 years later they will be declared right' is completely changing the chain of thought.

The penultimate sentence points very clearly to the believing faction being part of the Children of Israel i.e. the Jews, and the last sentence says it was that Jewish faction who were supported and became dominant.

So the answer seems to lie with ishammad meaning 1, but would anyone like to make a case for meaning 2?

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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2019 at 1:45pm
‘We supported the believers against their enemy and they were the ones who came out on top.’ (Al-Saff 14; Professor M.A.S. Abdel Haleem’s version).

The words ‘came out of top’ render the Arabic ‘ẓāhirīna’.

This word is variously rendered: ‘prevailed’ (Ahmed Ali, Yusuf Ali and Maududi); ‘victorious’ (Raza Khan, Sarwah and Mubarakpuri); ‘masters’ (Arberry); ‘prevail’ (Asad and Qarai); ‘triumphant’ (Daryabadi and Wahiduddin Khan); ‘uppermost’ (Shakir, Pickthall, Hilali and Khan); ‘dominant’ (Itani and Sahil International); ‘overcame’ (Qaribullah and Darwish).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us: ‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

Those who strive to do good are assailed by two enemies: the evil that lies within; and that which lies without.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) commands the believers (Jews, Christians, Muslims) to become true followers of their given Faith; to submit to His Will; to follow His laws, and the Prophets who conveyed them. All who do so will prevail; will come to dominate the two evils that seek to destroy them. They will be victorious. They will be triumphant.   

In sūrah ‘Al-Saff’, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reminds the Muslims of those disciples (of Yeshua – ʿalayhi as-salām) who did indeed follow him; in the manner required by his Lord; of how they triumphed (over sin; over evil); of how they became victors in the sight of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla); even when slain by their enemies; even when the world considered them failures.

The Muslims are required to do likewise.

This, I believe, is the message of the sūrah.


Edited by Niblo - 26 February 2019 at 8:45am
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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Biming li  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Biming li Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2019 at 4:29am
What is your opinion on Muslim, Christian, and Jewish unity against Russia and China?
Human beings do need one creator
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Niblo  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2019 at 6:18am
Originally posted by Biming li

What is your opinion on Muslim, Christian, and Jewish unity against Russia and China?


Unity of belief and purpose within, and then between, Jews, Christians and Muslims is a pipe dream. Military action against either Russia or China (if this is what you have in mind) would be a nightmare.

As you know, Islam permits military action in defence of the oppressed. However, it expressly forbids harm to non-combatants; to women; to children; to the old; the sick; and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war. It forbids the destruction of property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; and so on. It forbids the destruction of crops or of livestock, or the poisoning of water supplies.

How is it possible to conduct modern warfare and not breach these laws?

Prayer and diplomacy are the only options, it seems to me.      


Edited by Niblo - 02 March 2019 at 2:54am
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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