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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Topic: Jesus had to die for our sins
    Posted: 16 January 2019 at 2:39pm
One of the stumbling blocks for muslims is the logic of why jesus had to die for our sins.

If you have questions regarding this, I would be happy to answer.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2019 at 8:05pm
We don't believe in Original Sin.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Niblo Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2019 at 7:56am
St Thomas Aquinas writes: ‘It was not necessary that God should become incarnate for the restoration of human nature. For God with His omnipotent power could have restored human nature in many other ways.’ (Summa Theologica: Part Three; Question 1, Answer 3).

Muslims believe that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) did indeed choose a different way of dealing with Adam – the way of forgiveness: ‘Then Adam received some words from his Lord and He accepted his repentance: He is the Ever Relenting, the Most Merciful.’ (Al-Baqara: 37).

The sin of Adam was wiped out. This act of Mercy ruled out any need for universal redemption.
'Sometimes, silence is the best answer for a fool.'(Alī ibn Abī Tālib‎)
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2019 at 12:26pm
With all due respect to Thomas Aquinas, I would have to disagree with him on this matter.

And of course, I wouldnt ask anyone to believe what is a matter of faith ie original sin.

I think however, we can all agree on common human experiences.

Human societies are based on two competing forces.

1) The law which is imposed from above, which is about justice.
2) The support system which is a grass roots system, that does not judge.

An example of this in the islamic context is the caliphate vs the ummah.

In modern america it is certain arms of the government vs charities and certain other arms of the government.

Even in the traditional family unit, men generally lay down the law with the kids, whilst women tend to be more nurturing.

This arrangement is innate to human nature.

Its not because God couldnt forgive us our sins because of how He is, Jesus had to die for our sins because of how we are.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2019 at 4:43pm
So you see it isn't in the nature of God to just accept evil as it is.

And evil exists.

Now unless we say that evil is the will of God, which I think we agree it isn't.

Then the only way to stop an evil act isn't to perpetuate it, but to sacrifice ourselves to not reciprocate the evil.

This pattern is also true for God. To not sell retribution someone had to pay the price. Jesus did.
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 3:05am
Originally posted by The_Rock

So you see it isn't in the nature of God to just accept evil as it is.

And evil exists.

Now unless we say that evil is the will of God, which I think we agree it isn't.

Then the only way to stop an evil act isn't to perpetuate it, but to sacrifice ourselves to not reciprocate the evil.

This pattern is also true for God. To not sell retribution someone had to pay the price. Jesus did.


There s an important point to remember here Rock:

Evil exists because God gave us free will

He created us that way, so He allows us to commit mistakes then return to Him.

And when we do sin, He showed us by teaching our father Adam how to clear those sins, through a direct repentance to Hm only.




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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 8:32am
Repentance is fine. That's essential.

My point is let's say I steal your bicycle and then I am caught and I repent but I don't return your bike because I lost it.

Have you received justice?
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 5:39pm
On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifaree (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) from his Lord, that He said:

... O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me.
O My servants, if the first of you and the last of you, and the humans of you and the jinn of you, were all as pious as the most pious heart of any individual amongst you, then this would not increase My Kingdom an iota.
O My servants, if the first of you and the last of you, and the humans of you and the jinn of you, were all as wicked as the most wicked heart of any individual amongst you, then this would not decrease My Kingdom an iota.
O My servants, if the first of you and the last of you, and the humans of you and the jinn of you, were all to stand together in one place and ask of Me, and I were to give everyone what he requested, then that would not decrease what I Possess, except what is decreased of the ocean when a needle is dipped into it.
O My servants, it is but your deeds that I account for you, and then recompense you for. So he who finds good, let him praise Allah, and he who finds other than that, let him blame no one but himself.
[Muslim]


Sacred Hadith
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by The_Rock



Now unless we say that evil is the will of God, which I think we agree it isn't.



The Bible says that all good AND evil come from God. Islam says that nothing can happen but by the will of God.

How do you interpret that?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 8:05pm
Well I'm not familiar with any Bible verse that says that all evil proceeds from God
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2019 at 9:52pm
Well what I'm saying in a nut shell is that too defeat evil or sin one must take the hit and move on.

One can't defeat sin with a good act.

So I steal you bicycle and regret it and buy you a better one when I repent.

But in the time that I stole your bicycle, you were unable to reach your dying grandmother on foot.

I still have committed an injustice for which I simply have no means to recompense you.

You simply cannot out do sin with good acts, its not possible.

So now this presents a massive conundrum.

How do you get redeemed?
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 3:28am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Repentance is fine. That's essential.

My point is let's say I steal your bicycle and then I am caught and I repent but I don't return your bike because I lost it.

Have you received justice?


There are 2 types of sins, Rock

1- A sin between a believer and God only

2- A sin that harms others, like the example you mentioned

in the second case, for God to accept the believer's repentance, he or she MUST repair the damage done

So for God to forgive, what was stolen must be returned to the owner and by that justice s established



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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:43am
Al as I pointed out, it is impossible to make up for the evil, even if I replace it with a better thing and repent.

Also can you explain what a sin against God is and what the course of action for soceity is?
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 12:45pm
Unless a person can go back in time and undo the wrong, its impossible to actually recompense perfectly a person against whom the sin was committed.

You can come up with imperfect recompenses.

But the sin will always stand.

And thats why sin cannot be outweighed by good actions.

I think once you recognize the impossibility of making good for a sin, you then have to consider the consequence of this situation.
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