Lamentations 3:38 says, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Amos 3:6b says: "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"

Edited by Magister - 19 January 2019 at 5:48pm

Rock,

This topic has been reshashed numerous times. It comes up frequently in Muslim-Christian dialogue. But it boils down to the fact that the concept of sin in the two faiths is an apples to oranges comparison.

Jesus' atoning death on the cross makes perfect sense if premised on a rather extreme view of God's holiness and mankind's sinfulness. If you falsely create an impasse between man and God, you naturally need a third party (Jesus AS) to bridge the divide.

But you don't need to falsely create an impasse. Mankind isn't all evil and God could have created us without free will (to use to rebel against Him) if he wished. That's the Islamic view. So things are more moderate in the Islamic view, not so extreme. So there's no need for a third party. No, God does not want us to sin, but he made us to ask for his forgiveness if we do.

Whether mankind is purely evil or purely good or somewhere in between, is debatable. But it's always puzzled me why more Christians don't reflect more on the second idea, that God could have created us perfect/sinless if He wanted to, but in reality he didn't if He couldn't stand sin that much.

I’m not sure that its a question of how we view sin.

Islam says that good deeds erase bad deeds.

That is observably false.

Whilst one can debate whether God could have chosen an alternative method for atonement.

Christianity has the right view of the subject.

Restitution is almost always impossible.




Well God did create us sinless. I think that is something that every Christian aspires to be.
Imagine a world where we have perfect knowledge of every action we take and we immortal.
What would that world look like?

Yes, it is. I explained it to you perfectly. Christianity has an extreme view of sin, thanks to Paul.



No it doesn't. Be careful with your terminology. What Islam says is that the rewards of meritorious actions erase the sin of evil actions. But a deed, good or bad is always forever, that goes without saying. No idiot is saying that punching out someone on the street is going to be undone by feeding homeless people for the next few years. That punching someone out was still done. An action can't be undone once it's done. No religion that I know of says that it can.

But you're now just using semantics to justify your argument for the death of Jesus (as).

I know this is the Bible's argument, and I understand why you believe in it, but for me, I feel that it's illogical. God forgives because He forgives, whether there is a sacrifice or not. In fact, the Jews don't have this notion of a human sacrifice needing to be made for the sake of mankind's sins. This is something that came about AFTER he died, likely as a way to explain to would-be converts why God would allow the world to kill His only begotten son? (After all, if God can't even protect His own son who was begging for help in that garden on the night of his death, how will He protect us?)

But I think this explanation also ruined Christianity in recent centuries. The nailing on the cross of Jesus was supposed to be the end of the sacrificial laws, but Christians have started to use this same sacrifice as the end of ALL God's laws in favor of the laws made by unguided men (some of whom oppose God).

Just saying its illogical doesnt make it illogical.

Posited that the islamic model of restitution is false.

So explain to me how justice is served in islam beyond just words that God forgives.