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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 3:48pm
Let's say you murder someone. And in turn you repent and die for the sin. A life for a life.

I'd there justice for the person that lost their lives and for the person's family?
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I'm not familiar with any Bible verse that says that all evil proceeds from God


Lamentations 3:38 says, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Amos 3:6b says: "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"

Edited by Magister - 19 January 2019 at 5:48pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Let's say you murder someone. And in turn you repent and die for the sin. A life for a life.

I'd there justice for the person that lost their lives and for the person's family?


I think an easier way to make up for a sin against another other than going back in time is for the victim's memory to be cleared of the incident and the consequences surrounding it.

Such sins will always exist, even with a "perfect sacrifice". Someone's death cannot make Hitler un-kill the millions of innocent gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and other undesirables. The death of the "perfect lamb" won't undo the consquences of Stalin's reign.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

One of the stumbling blocks for muslims is the logic of why jesus had to die for our sins


Rock,

This topic has been reshashed numerous times. It comes up frequently in Muslim-Christian dialogue. But it boils down to the fact that the concept of sin in the two faiths is an apples to oranges comparison.

Jesus' atoning death on the cross makes perfect sense if premised on a rather extreme view of God's holiness and mankind's sinfulness. If you falsely create an impasse between man and God, you naturally need a third party (Jesus AS) to bridge the divide.

But you don't need to falsely create an impasse. Mankind isn't all evil and God could have created us without free will (to use to rebel against Him) if he wished. That's the Islamic view. So things are more moderate in the Islamic view, not so extreme. So there's no need for a third party. No, God does not want us to sin, but he made us to ask for his forgiveness if we do.

Whether mankind is purely evil or purely good or somewhere in between, is debatable. But it's always puzzled me why more Christians don't reflect more on the second idea, that God could have created us perfect/sinless if He wanted to, but in reality he didn't if He couldn't stand sin that much.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Let's say you murder someone. And in turn you repent and die for the sin. A life for a life.

I'd there justice for the person that lost their lives and for the person's family?


I think an easier way to make up for a sin against another other than going back in time is for the victim's memory to be cleared of the incident and the consequences surrounding it.

Such sins will always exist, even with a "perfect sacrifice". Someone's death cannot make Hitler un-kill the millions of innocent gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and other undesirables. The death of the "perfect lamb" won't undo the consquences of Stalin's reign.



No it wonít the point I am trying to make is that a sinner has no hope of making restitution. Itís just not possible.

The person against whom the sin is committed is more or less condemned to bear the consequences.

One can demand a tooth for a tooth, but that wont actually deliver justice to the person, in reality.

Ultimately the only way forward is forgiveness and the willingness to understand that one can never ever be made fully whole in this life for the sin committed against oneself.

So the idea that good deeds and bad deeds eliminate each other is fallacious.

So then there is no hope for the sinner.

Jesus was not punished for the sins of man.

Jesus was a sacrifice for the sins of man.

In other words, the sacrificial system was a sign of ones repentance for the sin.

God forgives because the party is repentant and because the payment of death has been made for the sin committed.

In essence the sacrifice dies instead of the person.
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by Shenango

Originally posted by The_Rock

One of the stumbling blocks for muslims is the logic of why jesus had to die for our sins


Rock,

This topic has been reshashed numerous times. It comes up frequently in Muslim-Christian dialogue. But it boils down to the fact that the concept of sin in the two faiths is an apples to oranges comparison.

Jesus' atoning death on the cross makes perfect sense if premised on a rather extreme view of God's holiness and mankind's sinfulness. If you falsely create an impasse between man and God, you naturally need a third party (Jesus AS) to bridge the divide.

But you don't need to falsely create an impasse. Mankind isn't all evil and God could have created us without free will (to use to rebel against Him) if he wished. That's the Islamic view. So things are more moderate in the Islamic view, not so extreme. So there's no need for a third party. No, God does not want us to sin, but he made us to ask for his forgiveness if we do.


Iím not sure that its a question of how we view sin.

Islam says that good deeds erase bad deeds.

That is observably false.

Whilst one can debate whether God could have chosen an alternative method for atonement.

Christianity has the right view of the subject.

Restitution is almost always impossible.



Whether mankind is purely evil or purely good or somewhere in between, is debatable. But it's always puzzled me why more Christians don't reflect more on the second idea, that God could have created us perfect/sinless if He wanted to, but in reality he didn't if He couldn't stand sin that much.


Well God did create us sinless. I think that is something that every Christian aspires to be.
Imagine a world where we have perfect knowledge of every action we take and we immortal.
What would that world look like?
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I'm not familiar with any Bible verse that says that all evil proceeds from God


Lamentations 3:38 says, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Amos 3:6b says: "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"


Itís my understanding that the word evil refers to adversities of the world.
Earth quakes, floods etc.

Itís absurd to suggest that sin proceeds from God.
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Iím not sure that its a question of how we view sin.


Yes, it is. I explained it to you perfectly. Christianity has an extreme view of sin, thanks to Paul.

Originally posted by The_Rock

Islam says that good deeds erase bad deeds.


No it doesn't. Be careful with your terminology. What Islam says is that the rewards of meritorious actions erase the sin of evil actions. But a deed, good or bad is always forever, that goes without saying. No idiot is saying that punching out someone on the street is going to be undone by feeding homeless people for the next few years. That punching someone out was still done. An action can't be undone once it's done. No religion that I know of says that it can.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 12:17am
Iím afraid you lost me.

Christianity views sin ďextremelyĒ. Muslims donít view sin as something that is serious?

So what you are saying is that the reward of a positive action is going to make up for a sin. In your example, punching a person is a sin for which there is a punishment, and feeding a poor person is a good action which erases the punishment?
And whilst you contemplate that, are you saying that somehow justice is served by equating the pain caused to one person, by a basic human need being met of another person?
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 2:28am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Repentance is fine. That's essential.

My point is let's say I steal your bicycle and then I am caught and I repent but I don't return your bike because I lost it.

Have you received justice?


Yes, when you pay back the value of the bike

Or if forgive you
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Shenango  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Shenango Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 11:53am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Christianity views sin ďextremelyĒ. Muslims donít view sin as something that is serious?


Sin is serious to Muslims. But remember that God created us capable of comitting sin. That means in his infinite wisdom He had a plan along for how we should deal with our sins when we commit them.

So what you are saying is that the reward of a positive action is going to make up for a sin. In your example, punching a person is a sin for which there is a punishment, and feeding a poor person is a good action which erases the punishment?


Yes, punching out someone warrants a legal punishment, absolutely. If you are punished for it, then God accepts that punishment as removal of your sin. You should still try to make it up to the person, somehow, though. But if the victim forgives, that's a more noble action than exacting revenge through punishment.

But a lot of sins go unpunished don't they? There a lot of sins we can't truly rectify with our victims, aren't there? Those sins get erased by making up for them with the rewards of good actions.
"I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none"--Paul c. 55 CE
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Let's say you murder someone. And in turn you repent and die for the sin. A life for a life.

I'd there justice for the person that lost their lives and for the person's family?


I think an easier way to make up for a sin against another other than going back in time is for the victim's memory to be cleared of the incident and the consequences surrounding it.

Such sins will always exist, even with a "perfect sacrifice". Someone's death cannot make Hitler un-kill the millions of innocent gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and other undesirables. The death of the "perfect lamb" won't undo the consquences of Stalin's reign.



No it wonít the point I am trying to make is that a sinner has no hope of making restitution. Itís just not possible.

The person against whom the sin is committed is more or less condemned to bear the consequences.

One can demand a tooth for a tooth, but that wont actually deliver justice to the person, in reality.

Ultimately the only way forward is forgiveness and the willingness to understand that one can never ever be made fully whole in this life for the sin committed against oneself.

So the idea that good deeds and bad deeds eliminate each other is fallacious.

So then there is no hope for the sinner.

Jesus was not punished for the sins of man.

Jesus was a sacrifice for the sins of man.

In other words, the sacrificial system was a sign of ones repentance for the sin.

God forgives because the party is repentant and because the payment of death has been made for the sin committed.

In essence the sacrifice dies instead of the person.


But you're now just using semantics to justify your argument for the death of Jesus (as).

I know this is the Bible's argument, and I understand why you believe in it, but for me, I feel that it's illogical. God forgives because He forgives, whether there is a sacrifice or not. In fact, the Jews don't have this notion of a human sacrifice needing to be made for the sake of mankind's sins. This is something that came about AFTER he died, likely as a way to explain to would-be converts why God would allow the world to kill His only begotten son? (After all, if God can't even protect His own son who was begging for help in that garden on the night of his death, how will He protect us?)

But I think this explanation also ruined Christianity in recent centuries. The nailing on the cross of Jesus was supposed to be the end of the sacrificial laws, but Christians have started to use this same sacrifice as the end of ALL God's laws in favor of the laws made by unguided men (some of whom oppose God).
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2019 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I'm not familiar with any Bible verse that says that all evil proceeds from God


Lamentations 3:38 says, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Amos 3:6b says: "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"


Itís my understanding that the word evil refers to adversities of the world.
Earth quakes, floods etc.

Itís absurd to suggest that sin proceeds from God.


Lamentations puts it as the opposite of good.

Plus, isn't failing to prevent an evil act defined as evil in and of itself? For instance, if you knew about a school shooting before it was about to occur and you had the power to stop it but failed to do so, would you not be considered an evil person? I remember Penn Jillette one time being interviewed and 9/11 came up when he was debunking predicting the future, and how he said that those "psychics" who claim to have known that 9/11 was about to happen before it happened and didn't stop it are just as evil, if not more evil, than the actual killers. I might be wrong in my wording, I can't remember the interview that clearly and don't have the patience to search the web for it, but it was about people claiming they knew 9/11 was going to happen long before either because they were themselves psychics or because they knew the correct way of interpreting Nostradamus' quatrains.

The point is, God is the only one truly in control of all the good and evil happening in the world, do you agree?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Magister

I feel that it's illogical. God forgives because He forgives, whether there is a sacrifice or not.


Just saying its illogical doesnt make it illogical.

Posited that the islamic model of restitution is false.

So explain to me how justice is served in islam beyond just words that God forgives.
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