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InterReligious Dialogue
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 5:25pm
On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifaree (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) from his Lord, that He said:

O My servants! I have forbidden dhulm (oppression) for Myself, and I have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another.
...
O My servants, you commit sins by day and by night, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness from Me and I shall forgive you.

[Muslim]


Sacred Hadith

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said,
“The rights of every people will be restored on the Day of Resurrection until justice is fulfilled, even between the hornless sheep and the horned sheep.”


Source: Sahih Muslim 2582, Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Muslim

The claimants would get their claims on the Day of Resurrection so much so that the hornless sheep would get its claim from the horned sheep.
Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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ishammad  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote ishammad Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 5:57pm
As far as i know, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) will give or reward the one who was wronged, until he is satisfied.


Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers. And praise to Allah, Lord of the worlds. 37:180-182
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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 7:11pm
When a lamb or a bird or a human person or whatever living creature is killed to make up for "sins" it breaks my heart to think of all that useless suffering. Shedding of blood to "atone" for human sins is a Christian doctrine that needs to be discarded as nonsense. The Letter to the Hebrews says "without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins". That verse needs to be ignored.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 10:09pm
Keny7, you don't think this verse in Hebrews fits in with modern Western society?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister

I feel that it's illogical. God forgives because He forgives, whether there is a sacrifice or not.


Just saying its illogical doesnt make it illogical.

Posited that the islamic model of restitution is false.

So explain to me how justice is served in islam beyond just words that God forgives.


It is illogical because the One who is infinite in power must use a brutal method in order to forgive someone. If I can forgive someone without shedding blood, why is the Almighty obliged to not only shed blood, but to torture to death His OWN son just so He can move past the wrongs done to Him?

It doesn't make sense on the logical level.

In Islam, God reads the hearts. Deeds are not always reflective of intentions. God judges by intentions, punishes accordingly, and then forgives, and even rewards.

The issue you might have is that in Christianity, Heaven is very abstract. The afterlife is not stressed as much as it is in Islam. We believe firmly in the Afterlife. We are confident that we will face Allah (swt) on Judgment Day. It's not a speculation. It's not a far off future. It's something that can happen at any moment of any day. For this reason, while murder is one of the gravest crimes in Islam, death is not an end of existence from the Muslim's point of view. Life continues after this one. In fact, unlike Christians, Muslims tend to view this world more as a try-out, or a temporary acting stage for us, and we are commanded not to get too attached to this world or anything in it. What this translates to is Muslims don't believe the 6 million innocent people killed by Hitler are gone forever - nor are any of the others who were treated unjustly in this world. They are alive with God (time exists for us - for God, it may be that the past, present and future are all accessible to Him at all times).

I suppose you can look at this life as a "trial" life, like a drug trial. Or like a trial run of a new plan a company wants to implement. It's meant more to be like an experiment than a permanent state.

For this reason, what you imagine as unjust of the worst kind may still be unjust, but it's not irreparable. Death is only a transition from this life to the next. This life is not as precious as the next life. Stealing from me when I need it most may harm me in this life, but in the next life, I might never remember the feelings I had or the suffering I had.

I suppose it's like circumcision as a baby - you experience the pain as an infant, but looking back at it, you don't quite remember the suffering you went through. It's another lifetime with a different "you" and the suffering seems negligible now.

Edited by Magister - 21 January 2019 at 10:20pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2019 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Magister

Keny7, you don't think this verse in Hebrews fits in with modern Western society?


What do mean "fit in with modern society"? It says without shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins so no I don't shedding of blood is appropriate for stealing or tax evasion etc. I guess a case could be made for capital punishment for 1st degree murder or genocide. But I'm talking ritual sacrifice shedding of blood to appease some supposed deity when it looks like all that does cause useless of the person or animal sacrificed
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 3:34am
Originally posted by Ken7

When a lamb or a bird or a human person or whatever living creature is killed to make up for "sins" it breaks my heart to think of all that useless suffering. Shedding of blood to "atone" for human sins is a Christian doctrine that needs to be discarded as nonsense.


That's common sense.

God does not need Jesus to die to forgive mankind's sins.

A believer repents after sin, and God forgives

He is the Most Merciful, the Most Kind

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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 10:32am
Christians say their God requires shedding of blood for sins to be forgiven, Muslims say God doesn't require that. I guess that's the neat thing about fictional mythological beings like the tooth fairy, Allah, the sand man, YHVH, Satan, etc you make them believe or say anything you want.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Ken7

Christians say their God requires shedding of blood for sins to be forgiven, Muslims say God doesn't require that. I guess that's the neat thing about fictional mythological beings like the tooth fairy, Allah, the sand man, YHVH, Satan, etc you make them believe or say anything you want.


Think logically, Ken

And I invite all our Christian friends to do the same

Peace be with you

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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 12:08pm
I am thinking logically. All the descriptions of various gods/goddess sound like they were made up by people. I see no no good reason to suppose there is an uncaused first cause
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 4:48am
Originally posted by Ken7

I am thinking logically. All the descriptions of various gods/goddess sound like they were made up by people. I see no no good reason to suppose there is an uncaused first cause


The most important reason that there is a Creator, Ken, is that this amazing universe exsists

What is its origin?

Or is it a pure coincidence in your opinion?
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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 10:02am
Yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster did a great job creating the universe
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 2:55pm
I dont think that any thing we argue logically can prove the existence of God.

Belief in God is a leap of faith.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

I dont think that any thing we argue logically can prove the existence of God.

Belief in God is a leap of faith.


Maybe not prove, but God is the only logical answer we arrive at consistently.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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