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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 4:23pm
Really Magister? God is an explanation, and not a very logical one.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 11:15pm
Probably the most logical of all. You sound more like an atheist than like a Christian.

But then again, the way Christians readily give up their faith to please non-believers, it comes as no surprise that you'd consider the idea of a Creator to be illogical in a world where the only way things come about is through creation or causes lol.

Edited by Magister - 23 January 2019 at 11:15pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 1:17am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Really Magister? God is an explanation, and not a very logical one.

"god", whatever that is, has zero explanatory power. Why? because belivers in a god cannot say what a god is other using nebulous buzzwords like creator, almighty transcendant omnipotent etc. They haven't even begun to establish that any god/goddess exists and until they do that it is not legitimate to say any god created the universe. Saying god is the most logical explanation is just saying "I can't think of another explanation for the origin of the universe, therefore, god" "there has to be a first cause so god sounds good, so I'm just going to go with that". My position is I don't know how the universe came into being and the difference between me and god believers is I am honest enough to admit it and they are pretending to know what they don't know.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by The_Rock

Really Magister? God is an explanation, and not a very logical one.
My position is I don't know how the universe came into being and the difference between me and god believers is I am honest enough to admit it and they are pretending to know what they don't know.


I suggest you may wish to read The Qur'an, Ken, and decide for yourself whether it makes sense or not

This is what many agnostics and atheists did, including Prof. Jeffrey Lang:


Peace and all the best




Edited by Win-Win - 24 January 2019 at 12:31pm
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Magister

Probably the most logical of all. You sound more like an atheist than like a Christian.

But then again, the way Christians readily give up their faith to please non-believers, it comes as no surprise that you'd consider the idea of a Creator to be illogical in a world where the only way things come about is through creation or causes lol.


We dont give up our beliefs. We understand they are beliefs and are not deluded about them being "logical".

The western mind isn't inclined to bastardizing reason and logic to have it conform to religion.

The 2 are separate things.

God is beyond reason because you cannot comprehend infinity.
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by The_Rock

Really Magister? God is an explanation, and not a very logical one.

"god", whatever that is, has zero explanatory power. Why? because belivers in a god cannot say what a god is other using nebulous buzzwords like creator, almighty transcendant omnipotent etc. They haven't even begun to establish that any god/goddess exists and until they do that it is not legitimate to say any god created the universe. Saying god is the most logical explanation is just saying "I can't think of another explanation for the origin of the universe, therefore, god" "there has to be a first cause so god sounds good, so I'm just going to go with that". My position is I don't know how the universe came into being and the difference between me and god believers is I am honest enough to admit it and they are pretending to know what they don't know.


Your position is one of denial. You know that everything in the universe has a cause, and yet you're trying to maintain an agnostic stance about the first cause.

And no one is pretending to know anything - every engagement I've had with you dealt with evidence you yourself can verify.

How about this, though? I challenge you to show me anything that came into existence without a cause. Once you do, my evidence shuts down. And I'm not talking about something that came about without a KNOWN cause. I'm talking about something we can verify came about without being caused. -- If you can't, then you admit that evidence points to an initial cause.

Then I challenge you to demonstrate to me that the laws that apply to our universe were eternal (there's evidence contrary to this, mind you). -- If you can't, then you admit that there's a strong possibility that the laws we use to understand our universe need not apply to the cause of our universe whether He/It were external or internal to the universe.

With just those two points, we've already found overwhelming evidence for there being a Cause to the universe who might very well be immune to the laws of our universe. This is not conjecture, this is a conclusion brought to us by all the evidence we have available to us. This is how science works: you go to where the evidence points, even if you can't observe it (e.g., like with the theory of the evolution of man which is now accepted fact).

My invitation to you regarding reading the Quran for evidence is not whether a Creator exists, but whether that Creator was conscious. That's a wholly different argument, one that truly separates atheists from theists. As for there being a Creator, that's undeniable. We know the universe is not eternal. We know that everything, including our universe, has/had a cause. We know that the laws of our universe need not apply to whatever caused us as they themselves came into existence AFTER our universe was already existing. This leaves us with only ONE explanation: That there was a Creator who is immune to the Laws of our universe.

The real debate should be whether this Creator is capable of volitional behavior, if it has intentions, if it's conscious or not. It might be a natural phenomenon following the laws of some external universe - or it might be the God of the Quran/Bible or a god from one of the many polytheistic religions or the God of deism or the engineers of Simulation Theory.

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister

Probably the most logical of all. You sound more like an atheist than like a Christian.

But then again, the way Christians readily give up their faith to please non-believers, it comes as no surprise that you'd consider the idea of a Creator to be illogical in a world where the only way things come about is through creation or causes lol.


We dont give up our beliefs. We understand they are beliefs and are not deluded about them being "logical".

The western mind isn't inclined to bastardizing reason and logic to have it conform to religion.

The 2 are separate things.

God is beyond reason because you cannot comprehend infinity.


Which is precisely why the Western mind is abandoning Christianity in droves either officially or unofficially, and considering all other religions to be identical to Christianity.

In the West, less and less Christians are believing in the Bible, less and less people are even identifying as Christian. Europe's already a lost cause - some American pastor went out there asking people if they believe in God and almost all the Europeans said no, with the exception of one, who was later found to be a Muslim.

It might be because of how the Church created this rivalry between early science and religion. Or it might be that the Bible got just about everything about the natural universe wrong that people started thinking, "Hey, if it's wrong about all this, who's to say that ALL of it isn't wrong?"

The same hasn't happened with Islam and the Quran. I remember reading in Tafsir ibn Kathir (I forget which volume now) where I believe it was Umar who commissioned a research team to verify a city or a location mentioned in the Quran to see if it was symbolic or literal. Even its earliest days, Muslims (even the Sahaba themselves) were of the understanding that not every passage in the Quran was meant to be literal. Even the Quran says this - that some passages are allegorical or symbolic while others are literal.

Muslims can still fully believe in Islam while being committed biologists, astronomers, physicists, and so on. Evolution is something that's interesting to bring up. Muslims through and through accept evolution (in fact, it was a Muslim who first penned the idea of humans and other primates sharing a common ancestor, but did not know the mechanism by which they separated and became what they are now; Darwin did that). However, some Muslims might look at evolution as having happened to every species except man. Some might accept evolution wholeheartedly the way the science world accepts it, but still believe in Adam and Eve.

What about life throughout the universe? Most religious Christians I studied with argued that the whole universe is empty and that only humans exist and that demons mislead people into believing there are other planets with beings on them. I remember a Jehovah's Witness saying that demons pretend to be UFOs in order to trick people. Yet Muslims have no issue with the idea of exploring space, looking for ET life, etc.

Islam has nothing against science, and science has nothing against Islam. I think that perhaps you are getting jealous that most Christians are trying to warn fellow Christians to beware of this enemy called science, and thereby are becoming ignorant to mainstream scientific fundamentals, while Muslims are encouraging other Muslims to see how science either promotes Islamic positions or how science gives us a better idea of the universe where the Quran was either silent or ambiguous on. This comes down to Muslim teenagers talking about embryology and the Christian teenagers unsure what embryology even means. Muslims are encouraging their children to find careers in the sciences, Christians are warning their children that the Devil will get them if they go into the sciences. Go to any PhD or other advanced science program in the US, and you'll find a large chunk of Muslims even though they make up only a tiny percentage of the population. This is great for Muslims, but terrible for Christians.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by The_Rock

Really Magister? God is an explanation, and not a very logical one.

"god", whatever that is, has zero explanatory power. Why? because belivers in a god cannot say what a god is other using nebulous buzzwords like creator, almighty transcendant omnipotent etc. They haven't even begun to establish that any god/goddess exists and until they do that it is not legitimate to say any god created the universe. Saying god is the most logical explanation is just saying "I can't think of another explanation for the origin of the universe, therefore, god" "there has to be a first cause so god sounds good, so I'm just going to go with that". My position is I don't know how the universe came into being and the difference between me and god believers is I am honest enough to admit it and they are pretending to know what they don't know.


Your position is one of denial. You know that everything in the universe has a cause, and yet you're trying to maintain an agnostic stance about the first cause.

And no one is pretending to know anything - every engagement I've had with you dealt with evidence you yourself can verify.

How about this, though? I challenge you to show me anything that came into existence without a cause. Once you do, my evidence shuts down. And I'm not talking about something that came about without a KNOWN cause. I'm talking about something we can verify came about without being caused. -- If you can't, then you admit that evidence points to an initial cause.

Then I challenge you to demonstrate to me that the laws that apply to our universe were eternal (there's evidence contrary to this, mind you). -- If you can't, then you admit that there's a strong possibility that the laws we use to understand our universe need not apply to the cause of our universe whether He/It were external or internal to the universe.

With just those two points, we've already found overwhelming evidence for there being a Cause to the universe who might very well be immune to the laws of our universe. This is not conjecture, this is a conclusion brought to us by all the evidence we have available to us. This is how science works: you go to where the evidence points, even if you can't observe it (e.g., like with the theory of the evolution of man which is now accepted fact).

My invitation to you regarding reading the Quran for evidence is not whether a Creator exists, but whether that Creator was conscious. That's a wholly different argument, one that truly separates atheists from theists. As for there being a Creator, that's undeniable. We know the universe is not eternal. We know that everything, including our universe, has/had a cause. We know that the laws of our universe need not apply to whatever caused us as they themselves came into existence AFTER our universe was already existing. This leaves us with only ONE explanation: That there was a Creator who is immune to the Laws of our universe.

The real debate should be whether this Creator is capable of volitional behavior, if it has intentions, if it's conscious or not. It might be a natural phenomenon following the laws of some external universe - or it might be the God of the Quran/Bible or a god from one of the many polytheistic religions or the God of deism or the engineers of Simulation Theory.





We have already been over all of these points multiple times. You keep arguing against positioned I do not hold so you need to find someone who says a thing can begin to exist without being caused and argue about it with him/her. You are also claiming that there is a being which has no beginning or end and that is what caused the universe and that it is outside of space and time. But whenever I ask what does it mean to be outside of space and time you have tried to answer and except to proclaim that it is true. I am rejecting your claim of an uncaused cause because you have failed to establish that there is such a thing and saying "well, there HAS to be an uncaused first cause it's just common sense" does not establish that it exists. Unless you can manage somehow to come up with an actual argument for there being a first cause instead of just insisting that there is one I am done here.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Ken7


saying "well, there HAS to be an uncaused first cause it's just common sense" does not establish that it exists. Unless you can manage somehow to come up with an actual argument for there being a first cause instead of just insisting that there is one I am done here.


I never said the first cause was uncaused - we don't know its cause because it's not a part of this universe. For all we know, that first cause was eternal. We can't tell. We DO KNOW, however, that whatever caused us is independent of our universe and need not follow the laws of our universe as they came into being after the Big Bang and didn't truly become the way we know them today till millions of years later.

So, we can both agree that there was an initial Cause that is independent of the laws of our universe and which MAY be eternal, right?
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Ken7


saying "well, there HAS to be an uncaused first cause it's just common sense" does not establish that it exists. Unless you can manage somehow to come up with an actual argument for there being a first cause instead of just insisting that there is one I am done here.


I never said the first cause was uncaused - we don't know its cause because it's not a part of this universe. For all we know, that first cause was eternal. We can't tell. We DO KNOW, however, that whatever caused us is independent of our universe and need not follow the laws of our universe as they came into being after the Big Bang and didn't truly become the way we know them today till millions of years later.

So, we can both agree that there was an initial Cause that is independent of the laws of our universe and which MAY be eternal, right?



Ummm, no. You clearly claimed to KNOW that there is a first cause which is outside our universe. Now, how do you know that whatever that is is outside our universe? Saying well, it has to be is not an answer.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 8:14pm
I claim there is indeed a first cause which is independent of our universe. I don't "know" anything - logic and evidence point to this. Do you think logic and evidence point to something else? Please explain.

"Now, how do you know whatever that is is outside our universe?"
I don't know. Logic just seems to point in that direction given that it makes the most sense.

Perhaps a better phrasing is not that it exists "outside" our universe, but exists "independent" of our universe.

Edited by Magister - 25 January 2019 at 8:18pm
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 25 January 2019 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Magister

I claim there is indeed a first cause which is independent of our universe. I don't "know" anything - logic and evidence point to this. Do you think logic and evidence point to something else? Please explain.

"Now, how do you know whatever that is is outside our universe?"
I don't know. Logic just seems to point in that direction given that it makes the most sense.

Perhaps a better phrasing is not that it exists "outside" our universe, but exists "independent" of our universe.


Go back and read your post two posts back. You said "We do KNOW" that there is a first cause. You're being dishonest when you say don't KNOW. In logic our conclusions are only as reliable as the assumptions and premises we started with. A mystery cannot be solved by appealing to another mystery. It's like saying universe creating pixies are the first cause. Just like your god we have to first demonstrate those pixies actually exist before we can say they caused the universe.

What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2019 at 3:24am
Originally posted by Ken7

A mystery cannot be solved by appealing to another mystery. It's like saying universe creating pixies are the first cause. Just like your god we have to first demonstrate those pixies actually exist before we can say they caused the universe.



Think of it this way, Ken

In an earlier post you suggested that (the Flying Spaghetti Monster did a great job creating the universe)

My question to you is the following:

Did the Flying Spaghetti Monster send his intelligent creatures (i.e. human beings) any communication where he says that he created the universe?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2019 at 10:41am
No,it/she/it has not as far as I know has not done than. You are going to say your God, Allah, has done that but how do you know the Qur'an is from a goddess?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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