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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Topic: Common arguments for existence of a God
    Posted: 21 January 2019 at 11:36pm
Over on current events I started a thread about the 70th anniversary of universal declaration of human rights it has turned into a back and forth about whether or not a g o d exists. A person states of course God exists because there has to be a first cause and even you atheists acknowledge a cause of the big bang. I said if everything has to have a cause so your is caused too. He said God is exempt from that rule. What evidence is there that there is an uncreated "First cause"?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Win-Win  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 3:29am
Logically-speaking, that's the right answer, Ken.

The First Cause must be eternal, and not constrained by the rules of His creation.

Like an engineer who designs and builds a robot, is he constrained by the same rules of the robot he built?

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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Win-Win

Logically-speaking, that's the right answer, Ken.
The First Cause must be eternal, and not constrained by the rules of His creation.
Like an engineer who designs and builds a robot, is he constrained by the same rules of the robot he built?


A man builds a robot the man is subject the same principle he had to be made by his parents and his parents were made by there parents. If anything your example supports there being an endless chain causation.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Win-Win  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2019 at 11:31am
But humans are not robots

They are very different

Right?

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Magister
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 3:18pm
Win-Win, good point, brother! I think Ken7 might be confusing reproduction for creation and creation for building.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Win-Win

Logically-speaking, that's the right answer, Ken.
The First Cause must be eternal, and not constrained by the rules of His creation.
Like an engineer who designs and builds a robot, is he constrained by the same rules of the robot he built?


In fact what we understand to be a universe, may well be a multiverse.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Magister Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2019 at 11:12pm
and all those multi-verses are within something grander - we can't even imagine it.
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven
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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 12:58am
Originally posted by Win-Win

But humans are not robots
They are very different
Right?





Of course humans are not robots. Earlier you claimed that the a first cause of the universe has to be external to the universe has to be external to the universe like a person building a robot is external to the robot. But a person building a robot is one part of the universe i e a man taking other parts of universe to make something a computer. It is a long long long way from that to establishing that there is anything outside the universe or maybe I should say outside the cosmos. You haven't even begun to say what that means. How the universe started is a great mystery. Your god, whatever that is, can't solve that mystery until it is demonstrated that that god does in fact exist.
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 3:58am
Originally posted by Ken7

Originally posted by Win-Win

But humans are not robots
They are very different
Right?





Of course humans are not robots. Earlier you claimed that the a first cause of the universe has to be external to the universe has to be external to the universe like a person building a robot is external to the robot. But a person building a robot is one part of the universe i e a man taking other parts of universe to make something a computer. It is a long long long way from that to establishing that there is anything outside the universe or maybe I should say outside the cosmos. You haven't even begun to say what that means. How the universe started is a great mystery. Your god, whatever that is, can't solve that mystery until it is demonstrated that that god does in fact exist.


From the point of view of a robot, which is built out of hardware and software, it may jump to the conclusion that its creator (the engineer) must also be made out of hardware and software.

But of course this is a wrong conclusion.

Same here...

God (our Creator) is totally different from what He created, as He is the Creator of time and space.

He is not limited by the laws He created in the same way the engineer is not made out of software and hardware.

Get the point?

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Ken7  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ken7 Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 8:41am
Win-win: nothing you said above answered the question: what does it mean to be separate from or outside of space and time?
What is wanted is not the will to believe but the wish to find out.   Bertrand Russell
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Win-Win  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 10:52am
God not being constrained by time means He is Eternal, Ken

He is the First and He is The Last

These are some of His attributes



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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 11:07am
Win-Win that is a construct to explain the cause and effect nature of the world.

However, at the quantum level cause and effect dont really operate.

Chaos and probabilities define it.

The certainty that you are alluding to is an illusion.

Edited by The_Rock - 24 January 2019 at 11:35am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 11:26am
Not at all Rock

This universe is designed and built in a very precise way.

The same laws of Physics apply all over the universe, like the speed of light and all other details

This universe did not come into existence on its own by coincidence

Check Prof. Roger Penrose
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The_Rock
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote The_Rock Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2019 at 11:31am
Please Win-Win, that is scientifically inaccurate modern physicists understand that the quantum level is not deterministic, there is no cause and effect as we observe it.

Effect may chronologically precede cause at the quantum level, if at all there is an correlation between events.

in other words the mechanical level is deterministic and the quantum level is probabilistic.

Edited by The_Rock - 24 January 2019 at 11:35am
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