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Win-Win  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Topic: Why Church Crushed Ebionites, Early Christian Sect
    Posted: 18 March 2019 at 1:39pm
Rabbi Tovia Singer Explains Why the Church Crushed Ebionites, an Early Christian Sect that Rejected Paul


(24 minutes)


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2019 at 3:50pm
"Message To Our Islamophobes & Islam-Bashers"
-Al (Afixed the top of forum page )

You certainly have no issue with Christianity bashing Al though ehh ?

Which is fair enough but you post links with a title stating as fact what is but opinion, and not any opinion but an extremely biased opinion. Biased opinions are fine when not presnted as fact.

Simply heading it as a Jewish perspective or opinion woud be more accurate and less of a lie. So not only do you attempt to post a hitpiece on the foundations for Christian belief but portray it erroneously as fact for greater effect.

Speaks volumes.







Edited by Damo808 - 18 March 2019 at 6:15pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2019 at 3:52pm
Remember the last time you raised tge Ebionites ??

You said very little then and will no doubt say little now.

Edited by Damo808 - 18 March 2019 at 3:55pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2019 at 3:53am
Hello Damo

Who said that this topic is about Christianity bashing?

We are all learning through dialogue, so don't take a negative attitude.

What triggered this question was actually something I learned yesterday

One theory says that the Jewish tribes which were located in Madinah and elsewhere in Arabia may actually be linked to the Ebionites.

It seems, according to a 12 century historian, Muhammad Al-Shahrestani, that the Jewish tribes living in Madinah at the time when Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, migrated there, were traditional Jews who rejected mainstream Christian views.

Waraqa ibn Nofal, who lived in Makkah at the time, seems to have had a similar background.

An interesting topic worth more research...

The Ebionites revered James the Just?

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2019 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Win-Win

What triggered this question was actually something I learned yesterday


What question ?

All i read is a very biased statement of opinion which attacks the foundations of Christian belief which via your choice of words for a heading you portrayed as a statement of fact. Not accidental, most disingenuous, but not in the least surprising.    

I'm sure you'd consider it Islam bashing and rightly so if i started a thread which merely links one to biased opinionated anti-Islamic material and portrayed such opinion as fact within the thread heading especially when i myself offer zero input on the subject I raise.




Originally posted by Win-Win

We are all learning through dialogue, so don't take a negative attitude.


What dialogue ? You didn't initiate any in the OP.

Edited by Damo808 - 19 March 2019 at 12:48pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2019 at 12:54pm
One theory says that the Jewish tribes which were located in Madinah and elsewhere in Arabia may actually be linked to the Ebionites.

-Al

There's no shortage of theories.. that's the point. Some believe the Ebionites held to the belief in Jesus Crucifixion and Resurrection.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2019 at 1:02pm
One step at a time, Damo

James the Just was one of the early Christian leaders from the time of Jesus, peace be upon him

And he did not agree with Paul on many issues

Is that correct?


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2019 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Win-Win

One step at a time, Damo

James the Just was one of the early Christian leaders from the time of Jesus, peace be upon him

And he did not agree with Paul on many issues

Is that correct?





He affirms Paul in Acts 15:13-21





Edited by Damo808 - 19 March 2019 at 1:21pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2019 at 6:15am
You were saying Al ???
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2019 at 6:38am
Originally posted by Damo808



He affirms Paul in Acts 15:13-21



Are you saying there were no major disagreements between them, Damo?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2019 at 3:42pm
Please state where such disagreement occurs ?

out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Win-Win Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2019 at 2:44am
The table on this page gives a summary of their points of difference:


Are you familiar with the writings of Robert Eisenman?



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2019 at 10:59am
Ahhhh... i thought as much..so where I show you where James in his own words warmly affirms and acknowledges St Paul directly and before all as a man chosen by God and numbered among them. You draw from both men in different places without producing scant context of what's being said by each in full.

An example quoted as the table in your link presents it from your table:

"Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2 & 10:4: We are not under the law."

Vs

"James 2:10-13: We will be judged according to the law, but there is mercy for the merciful"


Appears contradictory

Here's what James said ....in context

8" If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty."


James is pointing out that IF one chooses to reject Christ for the Law which He fulfilled. Then one must accept the impossibility for man in fulfilling the Law without transgression and as he points out, if you transgress in ANY of the law you transgress the whole of the Law and the Law offers no salvation which the apostles decreed was made possible through Jesus Resurrection from the dead, which both James and Paul preached.

Lets analyse St Paul from from your table again and in context .

Now if we refer to James above in stating the impossibility of mortal men fulfilling the law, and that both men preached mercy and Salvation was not through the law but through God's mercy through Christ. The 1st verse of Gal:5 verse 1 states this in regard of that impossibility via the Law "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

Gal:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Paul here is preaching a new law if you like which is one of the heart which conditions ones character towards godliness other than fastidious observation of rules. The purpose of the law being to bring man to understand the consequence and gravity of sin and of atonement

Romans 8

1"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Paul even an apostle is aware that even he is unable to abide in the Law without transgression and therefore transgressing the whole Law which offers no Salvation therefore guarantees spiritual death.

There is no 'slight' transgression, imperfection in the law is imperfection and imperfection is transgression.


So when you say James and Paul had disagreements thats a bit disingenuous but par for the course.




Edited by Damo808 - 28 March 2019 at 11:08am
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Jo M Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2019 at 5:04pm
We really know very little about the Ebionites, and what we do know is fragmentary and even contradictory (one version has a resurrection). Any theories based around this group, including any connection with James, are just speculation.

Furthermore, apart from the very challengeable content of the linked James/Paul table, it is not known who the author of James was. It's possible it was James the Just, but that's speculation as well. All we have is a name and some questionable third century attribution.

It's clear from all the evidence we have that Paul's ministry was endorsed by the disciples who knew Jesus far better than anyone. They must have known exactly what he was saying about Jesus, and were happy to see it taught. There were furious debates within the Early Church, but they were about the post-resurrection role of the Law, not about what Jesus was.

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