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sraphine973  
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bullet Topic: Hadith or not to hadith; that is the Q
    Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:05am

 Hadith or not to hadith, that is the Question!

For non-Muslims, the question of hadith is very confusing and there is no clear guidance on this from Muslims themselves. As the following articles points out, Muslims fall into different categories on this question,and not only that, but it points out some  serious flaws in the AUTHENTICATED hadith. HOWEVER if one rejects the hadith completely, one rejects the very biographical sources for the Prophet.

So can the Muslims here please give us non-Muslims some clear guidance on how we should approach this problem?

 

 

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/hadith.html

Absurdities of Hadith and Muslimís Denial

By: Ali Sina

There are two categories of Muslims. Those who accept the authenticity of the Quran and the Hadith with no ifs or buts, and those who deny the Hadith, partially or totally and try to reinterpret the Quran in ways completely opposite to its apparent meaning so that it become acceptable to a reasonable mind.

For 1200 years Bukhariís collection of hadithes was regarded (and still is) by the majority of the Muslims only second to Quran. Apart from the Quran, Muslims, especially the Sunnis, regard Hadithes as the source of guidance. The hadithes are stories of the life of Muhammad, collected by scholars in the second and third century after the Hijra. The most famous and revered ones are those of Bukhari and his student Muslim. They are called Sahih (correct, sound or authenticated) because they went through a process of authentication called Ilmul Hadith. However there is a new trend amongst some of the Muslims especially the submitters to deny the authenticity of hadithes all together. They would go as far as to call the eminent compilers of the hadithes liars and charlatans. The point is that these writers did not tell these stories to deserve such disparaging title; they simply collected them and preserved them.

 

Today more educated Muslims find many absurdities in the hadithes and their first reaction is to deny them. However, since the majority of the hadithes are nonsensical, the growing consensus is to deny all the hadithes and vilify the unfortunate Bukhari and Muslim who were revered for over a millennium. This is unfair. Bukhari and Muslim, along with other Muhaditheen did not invent these hadithes but recorded them as they were told. It is not right to shoot the messenger if the message in unpleasing. And it is highly unethical to defile these scholars and deny what they painstakingly collected, because what they reported blemish Muhammad. Some of these reports are fabricated and false but many of them are true. Because many of these hadithes are of dubious nature, we should not rely on them as religious source of guidance but to dismiss them as historic source is committing a grave mistake. These hadithes are all we have about the life of the Prophet. They narrate the stories of the historic Muhammad. They should not be taken as a substitute to Quran (assuming that this is a revealed book) but they are the biography of the Prophet. If you deny all the hadithes how can you prove the historicity of the Prophet? If all those stories are false and someone with a diabolic wit has forged all of them, then perhaps someone equally malignant has fabricated the Quran and the whole Islam is nothing but a fanciful tale. Without the Hadith, we know nothing of Muhammad, his life and his history. With out hadithes, Muslims have no way to know how to perform their prayers or fast. These are pillars of Islam.

MARANATHA!



Edited by sraphine973
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has chosen me to bring good news to the poor.He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:11am

sraphine973,

Ali Sina is an anti-Islam. He is actually a bias Christian missionary with no proper knowledge of Islam. His distortions makes people laugh.

You are just wasting the web-space of this forum by mindlessly copy-pasting.

 

 

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sraphine973  
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:15am

 

Since the question raised is a question I have asked myself many times and have had no clear guidance, the question remains valid whatever you think of the source.

I'm asking for helpful input. Those who have nothing constructive to say need not apply thankyou JF.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has chosen me to bring good news to the poor.He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:29am

It would have been a very good question, if you didn't quote from an anti-Islam source.  I know you are probably not up to hearing suggestions from me, but maybe if you remove the link and the copy-pate, you would get a good dialogue going. 

 

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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:35am
AA

Sraphine exactly what are you trying to prove by posting this?  Yes, there are some muslims out there who deny hadith.  But as Sunni Muslims, we accept them.  Not blindly, but based on some very serious and painstaking logic which you can read about here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scie nceofhadith/atit.html

because what they reported blemish Muhammad.

Is this why you posted this thread?  Because you see it as an opportunity to bash Mohammed(SAW)?  We had a rather FOUL perosn calling himself a Christian (thought his attitude was as far from Jesus as I could imagine) several months ago whose ONLY aim on this board was to blemish Mohammed(SAW) by twisting hadith.  There was oone PARTICULARLY foul accusation he made which my modesty does not permit me to repeat.  I really hope, srpahine, that you are not going to repeat the behaviour of this individual.


May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:37am

S973,

If you are really serious to know then get this book written by a Muslim Scholar, instead of spamming anti-Islam sites and reading material written by people whose identity is unknown.

Studies in Hadith Methodology & Literature

ISBN: 0892590114
Author: Professor Muhammad Mustafa Azami, Phd
Publisher: XXXX
Pages: 122 Binding: Paperback

Description from the publisher:

6"x9" This book, in lucid English, discusses the methodology and literature of ahadith. Divided into 2 parts, part 1 deals with the methodology of the hadith, and the second part discusses the literature, introducing the six principal books, as well as others which had great significance and represent a stage in the compilation of Hadith books. The author hopes that through careful reading, it would eliminate most of the doubts which have been created, deliberately or out of ignorance, by Orientalists and others and would provide basic knowledge of the subject.

( http://www.icnabookservice.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen =PROD&Store_Code=IBS&Product_Code=2.27&Category_ Code=2)



Edited by jesus-follower
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 11:42am

Hi Sraphine. If you have time, you might find the following site interesting.  It is called the Science of the Hadith, And it may take some time to understand. I don't understand it all, anyway. But not all Hadith, or so-called Hadith, are equal.

I think it's right to say that the biography of the Prophet is in the Hadith, so at the very least they are of historical value. I don't know anyone who claims that they all have been forged. But wouldn't your answer (assuming I understood the question) be that each Hadith must be individually examined for authenticity? And once confirmed, it can be applied both in the religion, and as a historical source.

Since this is what has been done, I think it's safe to say that the remaining Hadith need not be discarded.

-Amy



Edited by Aviatrix
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 12:12pm
Thanks for that site, Sis. 
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 1:25pm

"However there is a new trend amongst some of the Muslims especially the submitters to deny the authenticity of hadithes all together"

I am noticing somthing here. This guy who is obviously a Arab christian who speak fluent arabic and call himself Ali Sina in order to be confused as a muslim is trying to merge two falsities togeather .

First : He is saying that there is a trend to reject hadeeth . No Way. People in my country are turning religious and religious more and more in enormous numbers . Lets just make one simple rule in Islam . If you reject Hadeeth you arent a muslim any more. We trust the scholars of Hadeeth . There is a whole sience made for hadeeth and there is no way some non muslim can come and simply assert that they were forgerers. Probably this Ali sina person is so desparate.This is a very well known christian missionary style any way . Make a false illogical assertion with no prroof behind it as oif its a fact and when others start to argue back You ask for books of proof which you will never accept!!!

Second : He is calling his so called trend sect of islam that reject Hadith " The submitters" which is the Interpretation for " Muslims".  Boy he is so desperate!! He thinks there are no arab muslims watchging over his back lol.

Any Muslim who rejects hadeeth is a non muslim . Simple.

There was this guy on an anti islam site who calls himself Abdullah Al Arabi . He portrays himself as this guy who was muslim and became a christian . Guess what . He turns out to be christian from the begining of his life and he is so desparate that he made the story so that he can fool people of his arabic name for teh sake of false authenticity.

Really they are so desparate.

Any time

Meedo

 

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hamayoun  
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 1:34pm
AA

Meedo I agree with most of what you say, but let';s not call people non muslims for not rejecting hadith.  You need to look at each case individually.  It may be a new muslim who doesnt know about hadith- you can't call such a person a non muslim.  At the end of the day, only Allah SWT can judge the Iman in a person's heart.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 1:42pm

i Agree with what you say Hamayon , May be i wasnt clear about that point exactly . What i mean if someone is established in Islam and read and studied.

yes we should take each case individually though .

Thanks brother

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sraphine973  
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 1:47pm

Originally posted by hamayoun

AA

Sraphine exactly what are you trying to prove by posting this?  Yes, there are some muslims out there who deny hadith.  But as Sunni Muslims, we accept them.  Not blindly, but based on some very serious and painstaking logic which you can read about here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scie nceofhadith/atit.html

because what they reported blemish Muhammad.

Is this why you posted this thread?  Because you see it as an opportunity to bash Mohammed(SAW)?  We had a rather FOUL perosn calling himself a Christian (thought his attitude was as far from Jesus as I could imagine) several months ago whose ONLY aim on this board was to blemish Mohammed(SAW) by twisting hadith.  There was oone PARTICULARLY foul accusation he made which my modesty does not permit me to repeat.  I really hope, srpahine, that you are not going to repeat the behaviour of this individual.


The reason I ask the question has been very clearly stated by myself. I thought it was a very valid question since I have seen differing opinions on this from the Muslims on this very forum. Some of them from Sunnis, Hamayoun. Some say only trust this or that hadith, some say they don't give hadith any credence at all and rely on the Quran alone, some say only read the Bukhari ones. etc etc

The only thing you seem to have a strong objection to is the site I have quoted from, yet this has no bearing on the question WHATSOEVER does it? Yet you dare to accuse me of having an ulterior motive and am just using it as an opportunity to bash your prophet. Have I said anything against your prophet here?

And please do not place the sins of others that come here on me without just cause, thank you very much. That is something I will not tolerate.

What is so bad about the question I ask that you immediately have this knee jerk reaction and suspect me of all sorts of things which are just untrue?

Tell me also what makes my using this site any worse than all the garbage Yasin and JF (amongst many others) who copy/paste from BLATANTLY anti-Christian sites without so much as a raised eyebrow from anyone here? Sorry, but when one standard is applied to me and another to Muslims, I have to question YOUR integrity and motivation.

The way most of you have reacted to a simple question defies belief. It just reinforces the idea that Muslims do not like questions that they find too confronting.Just answer the question and ignore the link if it offends you so much.

Aviatrix is the only one who took the question at face value, as it was meant to be taken. Thank you Aviatrix, I will check out the site (yours too Hamayoun) and see if it answers my question.

MARANATHA!



Edited by sraphine973
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has chosen me to bring good news to the poor.He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 1:57pm
Hamayoun,

Yes, there are some muslims out there who deny hadith. But as Sunni Muslims, we accept them. Not blindly, but based on some very serious and painstaking logic

This is a pretty interesting statement. You say that as Sunni Muslims you accept the Hadiths. Does that mean that there is an actual sect of Islam that rejects the Hadiths? Is belief in the Hadiths not required to be a Muslim? Thanks.

-Andrew
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hamayoun  
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bullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 2:02pm
sraphine

First apologies if I offended you - it was not my intention. 

To be honest, I don't really understand exacly what your question was.  Are you asking about how authentic hadith are?  If so, the links provided should answer your question.

But please note that the article you pasted says : "
because what they reported blemish Muhammad."  This is what caused me to be a little wary.  If you had simply asked "What do muslims think of hadith?" I would not have responded the way I did.  In any case, please accept my apologies.

And one other thing to note.  According to our terms of services:

9. In order to avoid misunderstandings by Non-Muslims visiting this board, discussions promoting sects considered unorthdox by the collective Sunni Ulamah are not allowed, and will be removed. Such groups include Qadianis and Quranites etc.

Quranites are those people who reject all hadith.

May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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