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Karim33  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Karim33 Replybullet Topic: JESUS WARNED ABOUT PAUL !!!
    Posted: 10 October 2005 at 12:44pm

First, take a look how Jesus prophesied "KINGDOM OF GOD", Islam:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/islam/

(Please notice new text added below old text, in red color)

PAUL, BEAST (“WOLF IN LAMBS CLOTHING”) HIMSELF! (Allah knows best)

Notice how Jesus described false prophets as Paul described himself, by words (doing) “SIGNS” and “MIRACLES”:

Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible. 25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (Paul’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus-revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Mohammed did not claim to have seen Jesus in desert/house, nor say to be Messiah/Christ, but Paul "prophesied" for example about persecutions of Christians in future, that were already reality and so not prophecy at all, and even claimed to be wittness to resurrection of Jesus, so God soon killed him as He promised to do in Deut.18:20-22 for ALL false prophets)….28. Wherever the corpse is (new religion), there the vultures will gather (satan strikes).”

2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”

From Dead Sea scrolls of Qumran, it can be clearly seen that Deut.32:8 declared that Jews were not only nation to have prophets, as Christians and Jews claim, but that ”sons of God” have been given to numerous nations as Islam teaches. This is how this part went in Greek text:

"When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of (Qumran: ”sons of God”) angelic beings."

As in Dead Sea Scrolls, which read of the sons of God, and Greek version, which reads of the angels of god. Can word of God have so great conflict in matter so important, dividing religions? Problem really is in interpretations and understanding past times. Old Testament (Jewish) Bible is full of "sons of God" (son written with big first letter is Greek invention, as Hebrew does not have small or big letters), and so is called almost all prophets in Bible, even Adam (who had not even mother according to Bible, Koran does not deny even that he had mother/(HUMAN!)father, see beginning of astronomy/human development links and introduction). But times of persecution Matt.24:23-28 is talking about, came:

Thing is that it is FIGURE OF SPEECH for Jews, words describing someone very important for God (even Jesus himself answered accusations about using word "son of God" that "doesn’t your writings say: ´they were gods´?"). Adam, Jacob, Saul, David, Salomon, Jesus.... and many others, enough examples? Just write "son of god" into search engine on some Bible-site and you see. Jews understood that, as according to acts of apostles Jews allowed Christians to use synagogues even though they knew how Jesus was called, as Jews themselves have had prophets who were accepted by many other Jews but not by all. Jews never would have let Christians to worship Jesus as god in synagogue, so that is proof that early Christians thought him only as prophet. In fact EVERYTHING is figure of speech, as speech has only meanings that has been given for it. That is why in Islam Allah has 99 extra-names. He just shows that He makes us to call Him as He wishes. Jesus called Allah as "Father" because he wanted to make distinction between Jewish names of God and coming of Islam, to reduce conflicts on that. But situation changed:

As Paul had permission from apostles to teach pagans (Jesus himself said in Matt.15:24 that "I have not been sent but for lost sheep’s of house of Israel", and in the end mission-order meant "nations" of Israel, as there had been 13 of them), and had permission not to "bother" them by Torah or law, most pagan-Christians did not understand correctly "son of God"-term. After Jewish Christianity was almost totally wiped out by Romans in destruction of Jerusalem, pagan-Christians did came as dominant sect of Christianity and modern churches are based on their beliefs.

Paul tried to kill ALL Christians, he had army for that, but noticed that Christians just flew to other towns ("turn other cheek") and spread their message. So he understood that only possibility is to destroy threat to Judaism from inside, spreading twisted form of faith to large areas until it overcomes rest. He even send Ananias ("new Christian" according to Bible) before him to confirm his "revelations of Jesus" to another Christians, and so got credibility among Christians. That is evil. What gives more credibility to Paul than for example to Mormon-prophet Joseph Smith, who also claimed to have seen Jesus? Of course that was will of Allah too, but there is a time-limit until full responsibility is over People of the Book (Quran 2:62, and in 65:7 “Allah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him”.), that separates them from pagans who are not judged only if they are "people without knowledge (about Islam)", and have not be introduced to Islam (as it is almost everywhere in Asia and Africa introduced, but still lack of literacy and information, like internet, is limiting knowledge about Islam there, as it has arrived so to west especially).

Until (late) 20th century Koran was not even translated to most European languages, and there were only few Muslims in Europe. In Asia Islam has been for thousand years everywhere (33% population Muslims), but in China and Vietnam/Laos communism and relatively small/local Muslim-populations postpone knowledge about Islam and so full judgment on "pagans", in Africa (50% Muslims) nearly only rainforest and southern areas were animistic (now Christian) where Islam had not arrived. So in fact pagans have either knew about Islam, accept it or not and be judged, or not knew about it. Christians have always KNEW ABOUT ISLAM as it has been their rivalry and very close to them, but they have NOT KNOWN what ISLAM IS ABOUT (for People of the Book this matches same as total lack of knowledge for pagan).

When that time is up, and knowledge of Islam has come for everyone (like in internet), no Christian has no excuse why they did not learn about Islam, then curse of Paul has its full affect, and many are going to hell because of him. On the other hand, Jesus told about shepherd who got that one lost sheep out of hundred back to safety in desert/mountain (depends on evangelium, both describe very well dominative natural conditions in Muslim-countries), that represents those few chosen one’s from Christians who through Bible understood that Islam is right religion (like me), and possibly move to Islamic country in safety (no need anymore for that in secularism, but in middle ages definitely, if pagans had ruled in Europe/America/Africa, then not one had got alive into Muslim-world).

As you see, Christians can be accepting Islam through Bible, even if they thought that it is corrupted, if given good and accurate enough explanations and descriptions. Proofs against Paul as evil who messed Christianity is important.

(31)

Also remember Matt.5:17-20, there Jesus told that law will not change even a bit until heavens and earth will vanish, and that whoever will teach otherwise will be called "most least" in heavens (=by those on heaven), meaning lowest hell where he is.

Paul taught that law had end into Jesus, even though Jesus claimed exact opposite as you see from part above, Jesus did not claim to "fulfil law". Jesus did not even claim that for salvation belief into crucifixion is needed, and he did not even say it is going to happen for real or ask to call him "son of God". Paul even taught (Gal.5:2) that who is going to be circumcised, cannot be saved (although Jesus himself was circumcised and as a "god" did not order before his birth not to circumcise, to give an example).

Jesus even told that satan is thief, killer and liar and will never change (and that those who have killed even one of followers of Jesus are always going to be astray), and Paul was all those, stealing crops of Jesus by killing and lying, Paul even claimed that he had witnessed resurrection of Jesus as his "gospel is witness for it". Jesus even told he was send only for "lost lambs of children of Israel", and told about people who will go beyond seas into far away lands to get even one convert, so that they can make him even more certainly food for fire of hell than what themselves already are, that sounds what Paul (and even modern missionaries) did.

Claims that he became good have no basics, as we see result of his plan, and can see how much his teachings were in contradiction against Jesus (even though he claimed to be in his work, best way to get trust), and especially as we can see how Jesus warned about Paul and how Paul did his "mission" to destroy Christianity that threatened Jewish-religion (Paul was fundamentalist Jew when he was killing Christians) from inside, and how he did that by using pagans that understood Christianity completely in different way than Jews who were thought by other apostles (in many ways with similar methods and teachings, even though some of it was affected by Paul into wrong direction). If you would be trying to get somebody astray from teachings of Jesus, would you try to twist and use those teachings for it, or would you try to deny those completely and try teaching something completely new?

Jesus also made sure what "son of God" meant when he told (Joh.20:17) for Maria Magdalena that he is going to his father, and to theirs (Maria, disciplines, etc.) father, to his God and theirs God, or when he answered Jews accusing him claiming to be god "does not your scriptures say: ´they were gods`", meaning that it was usual that Jewish prophets were called "sons of God". He also confirmed this all by saying that God has give life to him (John.6:57).

Here is about most common "evidence" used by Christians about divinity of Jesus: Beginning from gospel of John is almost straight copy from text of Pthylo of Alexandria, Greek philosopher, who lived in 15 BC -30 AC. Only words "Word was God" is not in original text but in form "Word was God’s", that is in Greek small letter-error between two similar letters. Jesus even said that nobody (so certainly not disciplines he was talking to) has EVER heard voice of God or seen His face, and even though Jesus said that he is one with father, he also said that disciplines are one with him and God as well, so does Christians have 15 god’s?



Edited by Karim33 - 01 November 2005 at 6:57am
This is from my book in:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/

(or /quran/islam/ )

JESUS AND PROPHECY ABOUT "KINGDOM OF GOD", ISLAM:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/quran/cover1/Cover1.GIF
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David
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote David Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 2:53pm

Karim:  I'm not certain I have all this, so, please bear with me.  Your excerpt leads me to believe that Paul, in order to rescue Judaism, started a false religion which became Christianity.  Do I understand you correctly?  If not, please give me more.  Thanks.   

 

In Christ, David.
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BECONVINCED
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote BECONVINCED Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 6:45pm

Self-appointed apostle Saul/Paul is actual founder of existing Christianity.

 

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sraphine973  
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Rating: -1 of 1 votes Quote sraphine973 Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by BECONVINCED

Self-appointed apostle Saul/Paul is actual founder of existing Christianity.

 

No actually he was chosen and called by Christ HIMSELF on the road to Damascus.

The Lord also made sure other disciples were aware of it when He appeared to Ananias and told him what he was to do.

ACTS 9

10
There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias, and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." He answered, "Here I am, Lord."
11
The Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight and ask at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is there praying,
12
and (in a vision) he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay (his) hands on him, that he may regain his sight."
13
But Ananias replied, "Lord, I have heard from many sources about this man, what evil things he has done to your holy ones 4 in Jerusalem.
14
And here he has authority from the chief priests to imprison all who call upon your name."
15
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for this man is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites,
16
and I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name."
17
So Ananias went and entered the house; laying his hands on him, he said, "Saul, my brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the holy Spirit."
18
Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. He got up and was baptized,
19
and when he had eaten, he recovered his strength. 5 He stayed some days with the disciples in Damascus,
20
and he began at once to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. 6

I am getting a bit sick and tired of Muslims maligning and telling out and out lies about St Paul. They have to do this because only by discrediting can they explain away the inconsistencies between the Quran and the Bible.

Go educate yourselves so you don't keep trying to pass off your absurdities as fact.

MARANATHA!

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has chosen me to bring good news to the poor.He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed
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wesley  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote wesley Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 8:09pm

It pleases me to be in complete agreement with Sraphine as to the matter of Pauls' role in the early Christian congregation.

I find no contradiction between the teaching of Paul and that of Jesus.

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Kent  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kent Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:59pm
Hi To be completly honest, untill I can be convinced otherwise I agree with Paul and Seraphine.
Kent
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yeshua_seven  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yeshua_seven Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 1:06am
Incorrect. But...the Bible warns about false spirits coming to proclaim a different gospel.

"Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God." - 1 John 4:1-3

Jesus did not warn about Paul, but the Apostle John (Jesus' disciple) did warn about the spirit that spoke to Muhammad, who claimed to be the angel Gabriel. Demons can appear as angels of light. The spirit that appears to Muhammad did not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, and therefore that spirit was not of God, and therefore was not really the archangel Gabriel.
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sraphine973  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sraphine973 Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:59am

Actually Yeshua, from what I've been told, the "being" that appeared to Muhammad never identified himself as Gabriel or even a "Messenger of the Most High" This was a later assumption.

This is inconsistant with how angels always identified themselves or stated who they were from in the Bible. I refer you all to Luke 1 where Gabriel appears first to Zachariah and then to Mary.

In the case of Muhammad, the being just told him to "recite" and squeazed or put pressure on his chest to force him to recite.

MARANATHA!

 

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has chosen me to bring good news to the poor.He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote BECONVINCED Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:01am

Paul was a mischievious man and an anti-Christ thus he is the actual founder of a religion called Christianity that Jesus Christ never preached.

 

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Westwind Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 2:47pm

It's ironic that Muslims are presenting these wild speculations about Paul, when we know that Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus with the blessing of the apostles in Jersualem. The apostles and elders did not see a difference between what they taught and what Paul taught. They agreed that they would take the gospel to the Jews, and Paul would take it to the Gentiles. The Acts of the Apostles confirms this in chapter 15, and is also described in the second chapter of Galatians.

Karim misinterprets Matt. 24:23 completely, because he is trying to make it support the Quran.  The false prophets will try to use signs and miracles to lead people away from Jesus.  Paul taught that Jesus was born, crucified, ressurected and sitting at the right hand of the Father (God) in heaven in total agreement with the Gospels. He never said to go to the desert, a jail cell, or anywhere else to find Jesus, so to assert this shows a complete and toal ignorace of the rest of Paul's teachings.

And to say...

Jews never would have let Christians to worship Jesus as god in synagogue, so that is proof that early Christians thought him only as prophet.
...is a non-sequitor.

It does not make sense because first, the Jews never accepted the Christians or the gospel of Jesus anyway. They did not see Jesus as a prophet, but as a problem, so they rejected Jesus. And secondly, It proves nothing because we have the apostle John's gospel that tells us Jesus is the creator of all things, was never created, and existed with God from all eternity. These are all attributes of God. John was writing to define Jesus as being God.

He even send Ananias ("new Christian" according to Bible) before him to confirm his "revelations of Jesus" to another Christians, and so got credibility among Christians. That is evil.

This incredible conclusion again ignores the fact that the message he brought to the Gentiles was confirmed by the Bereans, who compared his message to the scriptures, as we see in the Acts of the Apostle's chapter 17:

9 And when they had received a pledge from Jason and the others, they released them.
10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.

Karim's assertion is shown to be a weak attempt to defame the Bible, the Apostle Paul, and the Gospel of Jesus. It shows gross ignorance and contempt for the Bible, and only gives proof that people like Karim are the real false prophets.

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amoxoxoma  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote amoxoxoma Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Westwind

...gives proof that people like Karim are the real false prophets.

Amen!

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BrJimC  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote BrJimC Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2005 at 12:08am
lol... false prophets are being pumped out of a false religion on a daily basis... its called fundamentalist Christianity....  Jesus warned of them even in the forged scriptures in the bible.
Accept Islam Today!




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote KivrotHaTaavah Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2005 at 12:50am
Jim:

Forged scriptures?  You mean the Qur'an? 

YUSUFALI: When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

They said he was a forger, and they were right, since he had whatever revelation he needed to suit the moment [witness the satanic verses].

YUSUFALI: When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"

They were right.

YUSUFALI: And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."

They are batting 1.000.

And, Jim, according to Aisha, your Quran is not complete, since a goat ate part of the revelation. 




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Ibn Al-Akwa  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ibn Al-Akwa Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2005 at 1:28am
Originally posted by KivrotHaTaavah


And, Jim, according to Aisha, your Quran is not complete, since a goat ate part of the revelation.


Proof please!!! Show me the Hadith!!!

Edited by Hameedullah
8:36: Indeed, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to avert [people] from the way of Allah. So they will spend it; then it will be for them a [source of] regret; then they will be overcome.
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