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Origin and Evolution of Life in Islam

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Topic: Origin and Evolution of Life in Islam
Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Subject: Origin and Evolution of Life in Islam
Date Posted: 26 April 2006 at 8:53pm
Origin and Evolution of Life in the Light of Islam

By Dr. M. IZHARUL HAQ

http://www.hssrd.org/journal/summer2002/evolution.htm#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=" -
"Life on earth is an old and controversial issue of the modern age. The modern Scientific and archeological discoveries of fossils show that there was life on the earth before human being. On the other hand it is generally believed (as the Bible tells us) that Adam was the first rational being created after the formation of earth, its rivers, dust and other animals. This also gives birth to another controversy. Darwin brought the idea that human being is evolved from ape-like creature. But the religious forum insists that Adam was new creation. Islam has its own point of view, and the Quran and Hadith has hinted to the issue in several verses..."

The entire article is located http://www.hssrd.org/journal/summer2002/evolution.htm - here .




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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam



Replies:
Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 27 April 2006 at 12:18am
operative word: hinted


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 27 April 2006 at 11:55am

Originally posted by Kayyam

operative word: hinted

Yes, and when you use those hints, and put them together, you come to the inevitable conclusion, which the author makes.



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: Aziz
Date Posted: 27 April 2006 at 12:03pm
its all faith.


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 27 April 2006 at 12:15pm

Originally posted by Aziz

its all faith.

Yes, faith in the Qur'an and the hadeeths to be precise. :) 



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: SayTheLordIsOne
Date Posted: 27 April 2006 at 12:20pm

I am a Muslim who believes in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, this did not mean that Islam goes against science.

Theories are merely one explanation of reality and life, just like religion is.

If we go by what the Biblical and Qur'anic revelations tell us LITERALLY WHICH IS A DANGER, the world will only be 5,000 years old, but this is of course absurd since this planet is much older and life has a tendency to diversify on this planet, this conforms to the premise of evolution.



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"To be the best Muslim is to be a good American, and to be the best American is to be Islamic. Both paradigms, the overtly Islamic and the traditionalist American, are the same."
-Robert Crane


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 27 April 2006 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by SayTheLordIsOne

I am a Muslim who believes in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, this did not mean that Islam goes against science.

Theories are merely one explanation of reality and life, just like religion is.

If we go by what the Biblical and Qur'anic revelations tell us LITERALLY WHICH IS A DANGER, the world will only be 5,000 years old, but this is of course absurd since this planet is much older and life has a tendency to diversify on this planet, this conforms to the premise of evolution.

Did you read the entire article?



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: KORUM
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 10:31am
very interesting article im just slightly confused by soem things it says, its not very easy going to understand what point he is tryign to make as he jumps from one thing to the next. anyone fancy breaking it down for us?



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'In life you have two choices, but a million factors.' (FLIMJAKL)
I need to find peace.


Posted By: Deserves2Die
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:04am
 Do i look like an ape?


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:55am

There is a mistake in the quote you posted muslim apocalyptic ...

It is by no means "generally believed that Adam was the first rational being"

The majority of Christains accpet that this is an allegory ... and then there are the hindus ... buddists ... atheists ... agnostics ... shintoists ... 

None of these believe in Adam .. you'd think Dr Haq would have learned not to be so imprecise with his languagfe .. but I prefer to hypothesis that he chose this wording very carefully to make this belief look like the majority view and therefore more reasonable ...

 To all the other rational Muslims .. it's great to see that it is not a neccessary condition for faith that you must first throw away all reason



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by steady

There is a mistake in the quote you posted muslim apocalyptic ...

It is by no means "generally believed that Adam was the first rational being"

The majority of Christains accpet that this is an allegory ... and then there are the hindus ... buddists ... atheists ... agnostics ... shintoists ... 

None of these believe in Adam .. you'd think Dr Haq would have learned not to be so imprecise with his languagfe .. but I prefer to hypothesis that he chose this wording very carefully to make this belief look like the majority view and therefore more reasonable ...

 To all the other rational Muslims .. it's great to see that it is not a neccessary condition for faith that you must first throw away all reason

I thought it was pretty obvious he was only referring to those who believe in the story to begin with. I suppose even the simplest words can be read wrong if you try hard enough. Christians accept it as an allegory? Perhaps some, but how many Jews and Muslims do?



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 4:27pm

Originally posted by KORUM

very interesting article im just slightly confused by soem things it says, its not very easy going to understand what point he is tryign to make as he jumps from one thing to the next. anyone fancy breaking it down for us?

I thought he made it quite clear in the conclusion of this artice:

"The above discussion reveals that after creation of earth, Allah created water. Then from water He had created other creatures such as reptiles, cattle, and other animals. After their creation, in different period of time some rational creatures, other than humans, were created. These human-like creatures, having blood and flesh, were rational and were subject to follow Allah’s commands. They were called such as Hinn, Bann, Tamm, Rimm, and Jinn. When any of these generations deviated from the right direction, and exceeded the limits, they were destroyed and replaced by another creation. Later on, humans replaced Jinn."



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: KORUM
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 5:44pm
Hinn, Bann, Tamm, Rimm


iv never heard of them who or what are they?
sorry muslim apocolyptic i didnt take that all in, i guess i wasnt paying enough attention...aplogies.


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'In life you have two choices, but a million factors.' (FLIMJAKL)
I need to find peace.


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 6:10pm

muslim,

your words ...

"I thought it was pretty obvious he was only referring to those who believe in the story to begin with" ....

Do you mean he's saying that .... most people who believe in Adam... believe in Adam ?

That means nothing ... The guy you quote is a doctor apparently .. I thought he would be above using such a tautism .. still some of the Idiotic stuff you guys quote form Dr Buccaille and Dr Naik etc ... nothing should surprise me ...

this is a pretty daft start isn't it .. four sentences in and i found a tautism (or an intentional misdirection) ...   If this was a CV the guy would not have got the job now would he ?

Look mate ... I'm here and you know I'm here. You know I'm gonna read what you put carefully when it's about creation/evolution .. or any science really ...

If there are mistakes or deciets .. I will pick up on them .. and point them out ... these are the rules of the game ...

...  ...

I won't apologise for being critical .... and you won't apologise for cutting and pasting the same old pages ...

So, what's next ... got anything from Harun Yahya you want me to slap around for you  ?

 

 



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by steady

muslim,

your words ...

"I thought it was pretty obvious he was only referring to those who believe in the story to begin with" ....

Do you mean he's saying that .... most people who believe in Adam... believe in Adam ?

That means nothing ... The guy you quote is a doctor apparently .. I thought he would be above using such a tautism .. still some of the Idiotic stuff you guys quote form Dr Buccaille and Dr Naik etc ... nothing should surprise me ...

this is a pretty daft start isn't it .. four sentences in and i found a tautism (or an intentional misdirection) ...   If this was a CV the guy would not have got the job now would he ?

Look mate ... I'm here and you know I'm here. You know I'm gonna read what you put carefully when it's about creation/evolution .. or any science really ...

If there are mistakes or deciets .. I will pick up on them .. and point them out ... these are the rules of the game ...

...  ...

I won't apologise for being critical .... and you won't apologise for cutting and pasting the same old pages ...

So, what's next ... got anything from Harun Yahya you want me to slap around for you  ?


First of all,
the author is simply saying that most of those Jews and Christians who already believe in Adam, believe he is the first rational, intelligent, mortal creation God created. As this article simply points out, Islam states that there were others before Adam. What's so hard to understand about this?

Second, this article is about the Islamic perspective of creation, not necessarily about finding ways in which it and secular science compliment each other. I don't care to prove Islam through science to an atheist. That's not my area of interest. My interest is Islamic cosmology and eschatology. Posting things from Harun Yahya here would be meaningless, as most Muslims and non-Muslims already know about his works, and have already formed their opinions about him.

How much do think we would care if you threw one of your boring, scientific articles at us? I don't think most of us would read it. I certainly wouldn't .

I posted, and linked to, this article, because I'm sure a good deal of Muslims, certainly most, if not all, non-Muslims, are probably unaware of these aspects of the Islamic version of creation.

I also don't what "same old pages" I've copied and pasted with regards to this. I simply copied and pasted the introductory paragraph, and linked to the rest. A lot of people do that, so people can have some idea what it's about.



-------------
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:13pm
Steady

Originally posted by muslimapoclyptc

Islam has its own point of view, and the Quran and Hadith has hinted to the issue in several verses..."

As I said: hinted is the operative word. This is one of those those fellows who takes a couple of poetic allegorical verses and reads a whole lot into them.

Islam has no "point of view" on creation. It is abundantly clear that Adam was just a story - having nothing to do with where we actually came from. The Koran is less demanding than the Bible of a literalistic view of Adam.

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:16pm


what do u mean by 'Adam was just a story'??@kayyam



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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by KORUM

Hinn, Bann, Tamm, Rimm


iv never heard of them who or what are they?
sorry muslim apocolyptic i didnt take that all in, i guess i wasnt paying enough attention...aplogies.


They are, like the Jinn, beings that were created before Adam, with free will that live on Earth, each succeeding the other, until we arrived at us, succeeding the jinn.


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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Kayyam


As I said: hinted is the operative word. This is one of those those fellows who takes a couple of poetic allegorical verses and reads a whole lot into them.

Islam has no "point of view" on creation. It is abundantly clear that Adam was just a story - having nothing to do with where we actually came from. The Koran is less demanding than the Bible of a literalistic view of Adam.

Kayyam


He also mentions the hadeeths, so there's more to it than just taking a few allegorical verses from the Qur'an and reading a lot into them. I see you like to add your own tafsirs of the Qur'an, when it says nothing about it being "just a story".


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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 30 April 2006 at 5:07pm
Well it must be "just a story". That is the only explanation considering the sheer abundance of evidence for evolutionary origins. So any Tafsir that supports an instantaneous creation of humans is wrong - not on grounds of Islamic scholarship - but on grounds of empiricism.

Not even evangelical Christians from the Bible Belt dispute evolution if you get right down to it. They dispute the process of natural selection, but they admit that we came from monkeys.

Kayyam


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Kayyam

Well it must be "just a story". That is the only explanation considering the sheer abundance of evidence for evolutionary origins. So any Tafsir that supports an instantaneous creation of humans is wrong - not on grounds of Islamic scholarship - but on grounds of empiricism.

Not even evangelical Christians from the Bible Belt dispute evolution if you get right down to it. They dispute the process of natural selection, but they admit that we came from monkeys.

Kayyam


So temporal, transient scientific theories have more value than what is clearly and plainly stated in the Qur'an to you?

Also, man didn't evolve from monkeys. What the modern scientific theory states, is that man and other primates evolved from a common ancestor.


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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 9:00pm

"clearly and plainly stated in the Qur'an"

I think not ... you can't agree on the interpretation until I've told you the facts of the matter ...

I told you ... it is just vague enough to mean anything you want it to most of the time ...

You read a scientific publication .. you should be in no doubt what the author meant.

Where does it say in the Qura'an that we didn't evolve anyway ... ?

Please show me the quote muslimapocalyptic



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 9:26pm

Alwaqt ...

That's THREE whole scientists .. blimey that's almost enough for doubles ...

anyone for tennis



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: antoine13562000
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 9:43pm

I clicked on the link and read the article at the beginning of this topic.  Some of what I read makes sense.

The traditional evolution has never made sense to me, the genetic code in even the simplest organism contains enough information to fill a small library, and even if even one piece of it is wroung, the whole thing fails.

Scientist want to believe that through scientific advances, they can create life in a lab out of a warm soup of methane and random carbon particles and what not.

The simplest things aren't just going to create themselves randomly.

If you have a pile of logs, they can sit there for twenty trillion, twenty quadrillion years, four hundred sextillion years, or whatever, there is no way those logs are going to randomly assemble themselves into becoming a chair, a table, or anything else.

In order for a chair, a table, or anything else to be made, there has to be a blueprint, machinery to cut the wood into pieces of just the right shapes and sizes to be assembled into the piece of furniture, and you need to have a team of workers with the right skills to get all this done.



Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:01pm
kayyam

what do you have to say about the conception of Prophet Isa pbuh, do u believe tht thts a 'story' too??
because if u believe tht Prophet Adam pbuh and Isa pbuh were just 'stories' then its obvious u dnt believe in the Qu'ran or tht its the word of Allah swt....correct??


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:09pm

I'm actually a little confused as to what the problem with evolution is, and the variation of responses here doesn't really help me, but steady and muslimapoclyptc seems to be on the ball so i'll just post this link because i like it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html - http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html

Sample:

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

If the quran can follow the facts, then woohoo islam, but remember you're having to fit the quran around the facts, the facts don't fit into the quran. It's all theory based on the facts, no different to Darwin, you just have to choose up sides and hope you're proved right.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by TwoHeadedEd

I'm actually a little confused as to what the problem with evolution is, and the variation of responses here doesn't really help me, but steady and muslimapoclyptc seems to be on the ball so i'll just post this link because i like it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html - http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html

Sample:

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

If the quran can follow the facts, then woohoo islam, but remember you're having to fit the quran around the facts, the facts don't fit into the quran. It's all theory based on the facts, no different to Darwin, you just have to choose up sides and hope you're proved right.



What is in the Qu'ran is fact , the Qu'ran doesnt need to fit around any other so called facts , and as a muslim , i believe the word of Allah swt rather than tht of a mere human who was created by him
 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by alwaqt

sammy,

Very good point. Kayyam should be reminded of this Ayah:

Surah 3: verse 59

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

 



thnx bro, or is it sis??
 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:18pm

Originally posted by sammy

What is in the Qu'ran is fact

In your opinion. And just because a lot of people agree with you, doesn't turn that opinion into a fact. No disrespect intended, just stating the blindingly obvious.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:20pm
2 headeded

i also wrote in my post , 'as a muslim' i believe the Quran to be fact , i didnt say everyone does ...duh!!

sammy


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:22pm
Fair enough. I have no problem with the word "believe".

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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:24pm
cool

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:27pm
That possibly sounded more condescending than i had intended but i can't think of another way of wording it otherwise i'd edit.

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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:30pm

antoine.

"Scientist want to believe that through scientific advances, they can create life in a lab out of a warm soup of methane and random carbon particles and what not."

This is a common way to argue .. put words in scientists mouths and then show how stupid those words sound ... I personally make no such claim ... I remain to BECONVINCED of any argument for the origins of life on Earth ...

Personally I got my own theory that the building blocks of life must have been formed in space ... it's due to the fact that all life proteins are right-hand chiral ... this chirality can be due to a slight chirality in the electroweak force ... the effects of this force are destroyed at temperature above a few Kelvin ... (very, very cold .. far colder than is possible on earth) ...

... but hey .. I got an open mind on the subject ...

Indeed Alawqt ...

My boss is a professor and a catholic ... He's not claiming God made quantum mechanics though .. nor does he deny evolution ...

Talking of Hindu Scientists ... you aren't refering to our friend Mr (sadly deluded) Khijli are we ? 

I know of a better one .. try Chandresekhar Bose .. he's a proper scientist and I think he was religious ...

Have you got any quotes from any of these people to back up your religious beliefs in creation ?

Ed,

please read my post on the Statement by the Royal Society in the general discussion forum on the subject ...

It is written by real bona fide scientists .. not nutters from Harun Yahya posing as intellectuals.



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:30pm
Just say what you really think and as long as it doesnt have insults against Islam, i 'm not bothered what someone says to me
you have your opinion i have mine

sammy

btw , tht was for twoheadedEd


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:49pm

Sammy,

I hope you're glad that not everyone thinks that all the answers are in the Qura'an ...

Do you think that we'd be having this conversation on the internet via our respective PC's if we tried to derive all science from your holy book ?

I am happy for you to believe what you like .. just don't think that the knowledge derived from it is sufficient for the progress we have made up till now ...

People like BECONVINCED/alwaqt/etc are trying to force science to fit the Qura'an or vice versa ... a patently absurd suggestion ...  

... the two realms do NOT overlap ...

Religion has nothing to say on science and science has nothing to say about religion .... full stop.



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: antoine13562000
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:52pm

I see God through how complex life is, they may have managed to map the human genome, through intensive scientific research, they have managed to splice genes through different species, but that was through extremely labor-intensive human efforts, it proves to me that there is no way for us to be here except through the design of Allah, if there were scientists at the time simple amoebas evolved scrambling to get the amoebas to evolve into monkeys and then into humans, why didn't they skip the monkey phase and create humans, that's because God (Allah) is the only one who has that power.

 

Originally posted by steady

antoine.

"Scientist want to believe that through scientific advances, they can create life in a lab out of a warm soup of methane and random carbon particles and what not."

This is a common way to argue .. put words in scientists mouths and then show how stupid those words sound ... I personally make no such claim ... I remain to BECONVINCED of any argument for the origins of life on Earth ...

Personally I got my own theory that the building blocks of life must have been formed in space ... it's due to the fact that all life proteins are right-hand chiral ... this chirality can be due to a slight chirality in the electroweak force ... the effects of this force are destroyed at temperature above a few Kelvin ... (very, very cold .. far colder than is possible on earth) ...

... but hey .. I got an open mind on the subject ...

Indeed Alawqt ...

My boss is a professor and a catholic ... He's not claiming God made quantum mechanics though .. nor does he deny evolution ...

Talking of Hindu Scientists ... you aren't refering to our friend Mr (sadly deluded) Khijli are we ? 

I know of a better one .. try Chandresekhar Bose .. he's a proper scientist and I think he was religious ...

Have you got any quotes from any of these people to back up your religious beliefs in creation ?

Ed,

please read my post on the Statement by the Royal Society in the general discussion forum on the subject ...

It is written by real bona fide scientists .. not nutters from Harun Yahya posing as intellectuals.



Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by steady

Sammy,

I hope you're glad that not everyone thinks that all the answers are in the Qura'an ...

Do you think that we'd be having this conversation on the internet via our respective PC's if we tried to derive all science from your holy book ?

I am happy for you to believe what you like .. just don't think that the knowledge derived from it is sufficient for the progress we have made up till now ...

People like BECONVINCED/alwaqt/etc are trying to force science to fit the Qura'an or vice versa ... a patently absurd suggestion ...  

... the two realms do NOT overlap ...

Religion has nothing to say on science and science has nothing to say about religion .... full stop.



thts ur opinion and your opinion  ONLY
what u say doesnt make a blind bit of diference to me, you stick to your belief and ill stick to mine ...'full stop'


 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: antoine13562000
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:05pm
Science is everything, maybe that is why econonically-disadvantaged farmers are being harassed to buy Monsanto's seeds to buy Monsanto's seeds every year or get sued, science may do doing a good job of advancing the causes of wealthy American corporations, but I have yet to see science produce an embryo from scratch.


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by steady

"clearly and plainly stated in the Qur'an"

I think not ... you can't agree on the interpretation until I've told you the facts of the matter ...

I told you ... it is just vague enough to mean anything you want it to most of the time ...

You read a scientific publication .. you should be in no doubt what the author meant.

Where does it say in the Qura'an that we didn't evolve anyway ... ?

Please show me the quote muslimapocalyptic



We're not talking about "evolution" as much as we were talking about Adam. I could care less about evolution, and whether it exists or not or in what form, as long as it isn't in conflict with the Qur'an. If it is, I reject it.

The Qur'an states that Adam was created, not that he evolved from a previous creature. Whether other creatures evolved or not is irrelevant, as we aren't talking about them, but about humans, and those that came before them.


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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:40pm
Will you reject empiricism too then?


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:44pm
Sammy,

Adam was just a story, an allegory meant to teach an important lesson. The Koran itself states that some of its content is allegorical. Allah did not wave a magic wand and *poof* Adam appeared. No no no... Humans evolved from lower life forms.

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by Kayyam

Sammy,

Adam was just a story, an allegory meant to teach an important lesson. The Koran itself states that some of its content is allegorical. Allah did not wave a magic wand and *poof* Adam appeared. No no no... Humans evolved from lower life forms.

Kayyam



Why , because its not possible for Allah swt to say 'be' and it will be??(naoudhbillah) and what about 'Iblis'??

what about prophet Isa pbuh??

n stop with the patronising tone , it doesnt make you look 'intelligent'
 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:50pm
Al Waqt,

You are misrepresenting Carl Woese. He does not dispute that humans evolved from lower organisms. He does not refute Darwin's entire framework either. He supports evolution and natural selection. In the PNAS paper, his point is that, especially with regard to primitive organisms, there is considerable lateral gene transfer between different organisms. That is why he says "common descent" is overblown.

Kayyam



Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 01 May 2006 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by alwaqt

You don't have to speak for the Koran. Leave the Holy Quran alone.

If you want to believe in "empiricism" of your 'lower life forms ancestors', go ahead and link your own lenage with them and be happy with them.

 




 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:01am
Antoine wrote
In order for a chair, a table, or anything else to be made, there has to be a blueprint, machinery to cut the wood into pieces of just the right shapes and sizes to be assembled into the piece of furniture, and you need to have a team of workers with the right skills to get all this done.


Hi Antoine,

In fact thats exactly what happens on the molecular level. It is truly beautiful and amazing. Consider for example surfactants and lipids. These are molecules with two distinct ends - one with an affinity for water and the other with an aversion to it. They are very simple molecules. But they form such wondrously complex and organized assemblies, like cylinders, hollow spheres, discs and bilayers. This field is called self assemby and cell membranes are formed from this simple mechanism.

You would be amazed by the complexity and organization of a single cell. It is truly an engineering marvel. Proteins are like little machines or worker bees. Mitochondria are little power plants. But we have dissected all of this and understand much of it from the basic tenets of chemistry and physics now. It is all happening via random thermal movements - it is statistical in nature.

The reason why logs dont self assemble into chairs is twofold. First, they lack the complexity and diversity of their microscopic analog. Second, thermal energy, which provides the driving random forces in biological systems, has no effect on the macroscopic scale of logs.

Kayyam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:05am
Al Waqt, You don't speak for the Koran either! I am leaving the Koran alone - it is you who is dragging it into a domain where it has no place and was not intended to be used.

Sammy, No - I did not say that it is impossible for Allah to do such a thing. I am just saying that he didn't do it. Just like he is not typing these words for me.


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:07am
Originally posted by Kayyam

Al Waqt, You don't speak for the Koran either! I am leaving the Koran alone - it is you who is dragging it into a domain where it has no place and was not intended to be used.

Sammy, No - I did not say that it is impossible for Allah to do such a thing. I am just saying that he didn't do it. Just like he is not typing these words for me.


but he gave you the brains and physical ability to type these words

what proof do you have tht he didnt do it??

you still havent answered my q about Prophet Isa pbuh??
 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:09am
Thats true, Sammy. It is very possible that wily old Allah planned all this from the start - maybe he invented the laws of physics and foresaw their outcome.

What was the question about Isa? I am playing catch up here...

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:14am
An absaloute arrogant git , thts what u r
You dnt even have respect for Allah swt, Astaghfirullah,

Its quite funny actually , how u choose to believe a mere human created by Allah swt n not the Almighty himself.

Im sure you read my q about Prophet Isa, i posted it 3 times , its obvious you dnt hav the answer


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:27am
Whatever. I don't care for your tone. If you have something to say then say it.

I am merely explaining my point of view. Stop whining.

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:31am
Originally posted by Kayyam

Whatever. I don't care for your tone. If you have something to say then say it.

I am merely explaining my point of view. Stop whining.

Kayyam


n i dnt care for ur arrogant patronising tone either...
and how manyyyy timessss do i have to ask you about Prophet Isa, what do you believe about his conception and birth???

n im not whining , im asking you a question for the 4th time, so answer it or jus admit you dnt have the answer
 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:37am
Isa is a normal human, like Muhammad and like, to a lesser extent, William Bobo.

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:42am
kayyam

why do u keep avoiding the question??
i didnt ask u if Prophet Isa was a normal human, i think i know tht ..duh!!

I asked you and ill ask again

Do you think, the conception of prophet Isa (jesus)  was just a 'story' (like u think prophet Adam pbuh was not actually the 1st man) and didnt 'really happen'??


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: antoine13562000
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:58am
What is it about the scientists that they can't just admit that we are here and they cannot explain all the mechanisms behind why it happened, that requires too much humilityand scientists are too much eager to take the place of God rather than admit that God exists.


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 1:16am
still looking for the answer, K??


looks like im going to have to give up , still no answer from 'wily ole kayyam'


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:33am

Antoine,

"What is it about the scientists that they can't just admit that we are here and they cannot explain all the mechanisms behind why it happened, that requires too much humilityand scientists are too much eager to take the place of God rather than admit that God exists. "

You silly boy ... of course scientists readily admit that they don't have all the answers ... it is you who claims to know the secret of Creation ..

By your own logic this makes you arrogant ... (I don't think you are arrogant .. just confused)

I personally cannot claim the place of something i don't believe exists (God)... I just fumble around blindly searching for the truth (wherever I find it) ... whilst you all sit on your behinds benefiting from science and all the time loudly proclaiming that you don't need it as everything you need is in the Qura'an/Bible etc...with no proof whatsoever and then ... and then you say that you can pronounce on science ...

Now let me tell you mate ... you need real tangible PROOF FIRST before any scientist will take your claims seriously ...

 

BECONVINCED,

you've lost the plot entirely now "West's evil agenda"

.... you sound like that drunken vagabond Mustapha Akoyl and his band of rabid street dogs

... you sound like you're foaming at the mouth even from here ...lol

Antoine and Sammy .. take heed of your brother BECONVINCED (alwaqt) this is what creationism turns you into ...

Do you want to end up like him ?

Is this what you want



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: antoine13562000
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 6:06am
Posted: May 02 2006 at 1:33am | IP Logged Report Post http://whyislam.org/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=222691&TPN=5">Quote steady

Hmm, for tangible proof, let's see a laboratory demonstration of life creating itself, until then, I believe in a creator, and I know I will always believe in a Creator, as life coming about required intelligent design by God, and I know that no lab will ever be able to show life creating itself at random.

Antoine,

"What is it about the scientists that they can't just admit that we are here and they cannot explain all the mechanisms behind why it happened, that requires too much humilityand scientists are too much eager to take the place of God rather than admit that God exists. "

You silly boy ... of course scientists readily admit that they don't have all the answers ... it is you who claims to know the secret of Creation ..

By your own logic this makes you arrogant ... (I don't think you are arrogant .. just confused)

I personally cannot claim the place of something i don't believe exists (God)... I just fumble around blindly searching for the truth (wherever I find it) ... whilst you all sit on your behinds benefiting from science and all the time loudly proclaiming that you don't need it as everything you need is in the Qura'an/Bible etc...with no proof whatsoever and then ... and then you say that you can pronounce on science ...

Now let me tell you mate ... you need real tangible PROOF FIRST before any scientist will take your claims seriously ...

 



Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:59am
Originally posted by sammy

Do you think, the conception of prophet Isa (jesus)  was just a 'story' (like u think prophet Adam pbuh was not actually the 1st man) and didnt 'really happen'??

No, Isa existed and I don't doubt the story. I am waiting for the punchline.

Sammy, that graphic of the character reading the book was funny

Kayyam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:31am
Al Waqt,

Your notion that Darwinism was invented to suppress religion is funny. The West has developed a valuable tradition of open debate and rationalism. They are not the first to do this. The Greeks, Persians and Arabs had strong civic institutions of debate at one point.

That Powell's speech at the UN was later refuted is a measure of the success of Western transparency. Nothing is taking for granted - everything is held up to the standard of proof. That speech tarnished what was until then a fairly spotless reputation.

Darwinism has been subjected to an incredible amount of scrutiny and criticism for more than a century. But its key mechanism of natural selection, which amazingly enough introduces an element of randomness, has been born out time and again. The creosote bush, for example, has developed a toxin that gives its predators, desert insects, a stomach ache. Some of the fastest evolving organisms are the smallest ones. Viruses and bacteria adapt especially rapidly to medicines. That is why penicillin is no longer used. The theory of evolution is central to the field of medicine and has practical implications to help scientists fight the latest flu strain.

There is a fish that raises its children inside its mouth to protect them from predators. So another fish, call it Fish B, developed the ability to introduce its children into the mouth of Fish A. The children of Fish B are then raised in the mouth of Fish A until they are old enough. At that point they eat the children of Fish A.

Kayyam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:36am
Antoine,

Sure, that experiment can be done. In fact the eminent mathematician Freeman Dyson discusses such experiments in his book "Origins of Life". Self replicating chemical systems have been created using custom designed genetic molecules. The challenge was to find the simplest possible system that would still reproduce.

Kayyam


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:10pm

[QUOTE=antoine13562000]Hmm, for tangible proof, let's see a laboratory demonstration of life creating itself, until then, I believe in a creator, and I know I will always believe in a Creator, as life coming about required intelligent design by God, and I know that no lab will ever be able to show life creating itself at random. [/QUOTE

IT'S NOT RANDOM!!! IT'S CALLED NATURAL SELECTION, GET EDUCATED ON THE SUBJECT OR BELT UP!!!



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:14pm

For example, imagine if you will a rabbit farm high on a mountain. The farmer buys a thousand rabbits, some have longer fur and some have shorter fur - it's a quite mixed group of rabbits. The length of the fur on the rabbits is determined by their genetic makeup. Some have genes for long fur, some for shorter. Now, this farm (or ranch, if you prefer) is in an area that gets extremely cold for most of the year. The rabbits survival depends upon having enough fur to keep them warm. Those with short fur will freeze to death and die (our fictional farmer doesn't have much business sense).

Because of the situation these unfortunate creatures are in, they are subject to natural selection. There is a selection pressure for longer fur. More baby rabbits are born than can possibly survive in the environment. This is an important part of the process. Their genetic makeup is a determining factor in their survival. Rabbits that die of cold will not pass on their short-fur genes to their offspring (as they won't have any), whereas rabbits with long fur will be more resistant to the cold and therefore much more likely to reproduce, passing on their genes for long fur.

Over many generations, the farm will consist almost entirely of long-fur rabbits. The frequency of genes for short fur has decreased, and the frequency of genes for long fur has increased. Far fewer short-haired rabbits, and eventually none at all, will be born - their genes will have been lost from the gene-pool.

Some rabbits may have developed genetic mutations which further increase the length of their fur. These mutations will clearly give those rabbits an advantage in their environment, and those beneficial mutations will spread through the gene pool of the population. Mutations that are detrimental to the survival rate will clearly be lost quickly, as those unfortunate rabbits will have a reduced chance of surviving long enough to mate. In this way, useful mutations stay on in the population. It's a positive feedback loop - this is the second important thing to remember.

These rabbits have evolved. It's really that simple.

Evolution is a directly observable phenomenon. There is no debate among scientists as to whether or not evolution occurs, any more than there is debate about the Earth orbiting the Sun. Gene pools change - evolution happens. This is obviously a rather contrived example, but it serves to demonstrate some of the basic principles.

Now, objectors will say "Ah, but they're still rabbits, aren't they? That's not the same as amphibians turning into reptiles, and then mammals, is it? That still doesn't explain how a human can evolve from an ape-like ancestor, does it?"

Yes, it does. The change from mixed-fur rabbits to long-fur rabbits (in this example) is often referred to as micro-evolution - a minor change within a species. Larger changes are known as macro-evolution, and take far longer to occur, but the process involved is exactly the same - genes changing over time. It is a cumulative process - the minor changes build up over many generations into major changes. Given time, the descendants of these rabbits could become an entirely novel species of rabbit, and eventually a creature that can no longer be called a rabbit.

To say that you accept micro-evolution but not macro-evolution is akin to saying that it is possible to walk to the end of your street, but it is somehow impossible to walk to the next town. The process involved, putting one foot in front of the other, a single step at a time, is exactly the same although the end results may be completely different.

Evolution is a fact. This is not open to debate.

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/factandtheory.html - http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/factandtheory.html



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:29pm

If you want to be like sammy and deny science in favour of your belief then that's fine. It may not be my way but at least it's honest. But if you are trying to discredit science and replace it with your belief then just how stupid are you?

Science is based on evidence, your beliefs are based on, well, NOTHING!!!

Your beliefs (and my beliefs for that matter) cannot hold up against science.

You can say as many stupid things as you like and vomit out any number of "conspiracy" theories but you are still talking crap. A scientific theory is a conclusion based on the evidence (facts!), a belief is a conclusion that doesn't require evidence, and why should it! God doesn't have to prove anything to you. If we could prove that God existed then that would defeat the point of believing in him. It's not FAITH if we KNOW something to be true, that's called science.

If you KNOW that God exists then you aren't really faithful to him, you're just better informed than those who don't know it.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:32pm
Two Headed,

Evolution is not fact. It is a theory that is very well supported by evidence. No scientist will ever say that something is 100% proven. They have learned their lesson, for example, with Newton's laws of motion - which are... wrong.

Antoine is right. There is an element of randomness at the heart of natural selection. Thats why its called "natural". You get random adaptations - and the most successful ones survive and proliferate via a positive feedback algorithm.

Kayyam


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:36pm

That's pretty loose use of the word random. Ok maybe the mutations are random, but only the best survive, which is anything but random.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:38pm

Also EVOLUTION IS A FACT!!!

Visit the link i provided.

Darwin's Theory Of Evolution is not evolution. In the same way, the theory that the Earth orbits the Sun is not the Earth orbiting the Sun - it is a description and explanation of it.

The theory of evolution is an explanation of the facts of evolution.

If nobody had ever developed the theory, it would not change that fact that living things evolve over time - evolution happens whether there is a theory or not.

Furthermore, Darwin's theory of evolution may be totally, hopelessly and utterly wrong. Even if it were, and Darwin and every biologist who had contributed to the theory since were incorrect, evolution would still exist and continue. Evolution is totally independent of the theory of evolution. The theory is simply an attempt to explain the observed facts of nature that we call "evolution".



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:39pm

antoine,

I am happy for you to believe God creaed us ...

just don't fool yourself into thinking this belief has anything to do with science ...

Alwaqt,

your bitterness is embarassing us all ... please try to be objective ... as a scientist objectivity is paramount ...

I read the specch by that filthy curr Mustapha Akoyl in the hearings of the Kansas school board where he blamed the West's belief in evolution for the Terrorist attacks on it ... as if it was our fault ...

You seem to be hinting at the same kind of thing ...

Well I ask you ..what is more rational ... a biologist or a suicide bomber ...

I strongly suggest you calm down anyway ... you sound like you might explode!



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:43pm
Yes, there are deterministic systems that have random parts.


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:48pm

Since alwaqt loves to go on and on about Carl Woese but never actually bothers to tell us anything about him or his theory here's a link i found quickly on google for anyone who is interested.

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14236&a mp;ch=biotech - http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14236&a mp;a mp;a mp;ch=biotech

If this link is inefficient alwaqt i advise you provide one of your own.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:57pm
Oh, that article is by Freeman Dyson! Nice.

Dyson does a good job explaining what Woese is saying. The early stage when life was primitive, was not Darwinian in the sense of verticle gene transfer. Evolution occurred predominantly via a cross-species mechanism in these simple protean life forms.

Once life became more advanced, the Darwinian era of common ancestry began - and remains in place today.

Kayyam




Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 1:40pm

The name Freeman Dyson doesn't mean much to me, it was just the link at the top of the list.

Really i could google all day but i'm hoping alwaqt can better direct us, since i find it rather annoying that he keeps mentioning Carl Woese and not bothering to inform us any more efficiently than that. You can't just assume everyone reading this will know what you're talking about.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 4:14pm

Try googling Harun Yahya ...

You can cut out the parrot in the middle (BECONTAINED/alwaqt) and go straight to where he cuts and pastes from ...

I think he's been hypnotised by the pretty pictures there



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by alwaqt

TwoHeadedEd,

First learn atleast some basics of science before your cut-paste.

Explain your statement.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by alwaqt

Originally posted by TwoHeadedEd

The theory of evolution is an explanation of the facts of evolution.

LOL

Did you notice the meaninglessness/circular reasoning in your very title?

 

If you don't understand i'll happily explain this statement to you.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Kayyam

Will you reject empiricism too then?


The idea that knowledge can be derived through experience? Then no, I don't reject it. That it is the only, or even the ultimate source of knowledge? Then yes, I do reject it.


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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 6:12pm

alwaqt,

After a year long conversation with you (in your many guises BECONVINCED)

I am in a position to say ...

You know nothing about science whatsoever ....

I asked you repeatedly for you qualifications to talk authoritively on this subject .. and you always avoided this question .. I have shown you .. I am a  real bona fide scientist (in fact I am doing a three week long experiment right now) ...

Your reply always seems to be "Darwin was an amateur" .. this is not an answer ...

You qualifications seem to amount to less than a hill of bens ...

Moreover .. all you ever do is parrot the ramblings of a failed art student - Adnan Okhtar ...

Accusing everyone else of ignorance on the subject is childish and facile and seems to be the upper limit of your mental faculty ... the lower limit being personal insults of everyone who tries to help you out of your self induced darkness.

The basics of science are way beyond your grasp BECONVINCED ...

Whether this is due to stupidity or stubbornness I cannot say.

But either way you can't ask Ed to learn the basics unless you are prepared to do so as well ...  



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 6:15pm
Suit yourself.

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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 7:16pm
What forced Colin Powell to recant his speech were leaks from the administration, starting with the yellow cake and then later on with the mobile weapons labs. Things come out later if not sooner.

Kayyam


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 7:18pm
Freeman Dyson is great. He is a famous mathematician/physicist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. His "Origins of Life" was a wonderful little book modeled on Shroedinger's "What is Life?".

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Kayyam

Originally posted by sammy

Do you think, the conception of prophet Isa (jesus)  was just a 'story' (like u think prophet Adam pbuh was not actually the 1st man) and didnt 'really happen'??

No, Isa existed and I don't doubt the story. I am waiting for the punchline.

Sammy, that graphic of the character reading the book was funny

Kayyam


okkkk

let me get my tiny brain round what your saying,
you say tht its possible for Allah swt, to create Prophet Isa pbuh without a father, but its impossible for him to create Adam pbuh
ummmm very strange
 

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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: SoloJazz
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 8:16pm

Originally posted by alwaqt

What the West really have even now? All kinds of destructive items and few other things but the rest is... "made in China", "made in Japan", "made in Korea", "made in Malaysia" "assumbled in Thailand"......etc. just look at the labels of your very stuff you are using.



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Posted By: TwoHeadedEd
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by alwaqt

Originally posted by TwoHeadedEd

If you don't understand i'll happily explain this statement to you.

Oh no..you don't have to bother yourself. The very title is self-explanatory of your "reasoning" and this is more than enough.

 

How unsurprised were we all by this answer. I think i answered your question steady, it's stubborness that drives him. He won't even take help when sincerely offered.



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If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 02 May 2006 at 9:40pm
Devolution is where this thread is headed. How about getting back on topic.


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 12:47am
Kayyam
im not going to stop stalking you untill you answer

incase you forgot here is my q again

Why do you think its possible for Allah swt to create Prophet Isa pbuh (Jesus) without a father, but impossible for him to create Adam pbuh without parents and as the first man??


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 10:09am

Originally posted by sammy

Kayyam
im not going to stop stalking you untill you answer

incase you forgot here is my q again

Why do you think its possible for Allah swt to create Prophet Isa pbuh (Jesus) without a father, but impossible for him to create Adam pbuh without parents and as the first man??

It's probably not so much a matter of "impossibility" as much as it is a matter of "implausibility" for Kayyam, as he seems to believe evolution is a more plausible explanation than creation. It's understandable from a secular point-of-view, since creation happens once, and can't be measured at all, while evolution is a developmental process that can be measured. They prefer things that can be measured as opposed to things that cannot be measured.

Here is one Islamic perspective of biological evolution:

http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=792 - Biological Evolution - An Islamic Perspective



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 12:33pm

Alwaqt,

I only state that you know nothing about science .. I say nothing about other muslims ..

Kayyam is proof that some Muslims can be sensible and honest.

I also know about developments in science performed in the Muslim world ... namely Al-Hazan ... I don't think he used a literal interpretation of the Qura'an to do what he did though ... he used observation and measurement ..

Indeed my laptop was made in Malaysia ... but I don't think an Imam prayed over the silicon wafer and produced a 600 MHz Chip .. that again was performed using the miracle of science.

muslimapocalypitc you are truly gaining an understanding of science ...

"It's probably not so much a matter of "impossibility" as much as it is a matter of "implausibility""

The facts NEVER prove the case in science ... however a thing called the central limit theorem can give you an idea of the limits of plausibility ... If you measure the same thing over and over again .... and average the results and plot them you should find that they tend to a certain value ... the central limit theorem approximates the spread of results to a gaussian ... a very good approximation as it turns out ....

All results are included ... including the ones that don't agree ... however the more times you make the measurement the Gaussian function gets thinner and taller (it's area remaining the same) .. the width of the Gaussian provide the limits of plausibility of a measurement ... at some point one must accept that the gaussian is sharp enough  in one measurement to accpet that the central value is the correct one .. the width of the gaussian actually provides the error bars on a graph ...

Now ... evolution has been measured over and over again and repeateddly been confirmed ... now ... even including (Beconvinced's hoaxes) the weight of evidence is enough that science has accepted Darwin's theory as fact (contingently of course ...we are always ready to test new hypothesis) ....

The proposals of religions and belief are unmeasurable and untestable.

That is why they require Belief ... no ? If you could measure it then you no longer require belief and it becomes mundane knowledge .. not mystical knowledge ...

This makes them entirely seperate from Science ...

This is why God is always hiding in the places Science has yet to explain .. like the afterlife and Creation ... Before this time .. God was used to explain the rising of the sun and the changing of the weather .. as science explained these things God became redundant .. and squeezed into a smaller and smaller space ... Now he only seems to have these two places left ..

This is what is known as "The God of the Gaps"

Jermin ... good to see you've become BECONVINCED's cheerleader ...

You wanna talk to me or just clap from the side-lines ?



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by steady

muslimapocalypitc you are truly gaining an understanding of science ...

"It's probably not so much a matter of "impossibility" as much as it is a matter of "implausibility""

The facts NEVER prove the case in science ... however a thing called the central limit theorem can give you an idea of the limits of plausibility ... If you measure the same thing over and over again .... and average the results and plot them you should find that they tend to a certain value ... the central limit theorem approximates the spread of results to a gaussian ... a very good approximation as it turns out ....

All results are included ... including the ones that don't agree ... however the more times you make the measurement the Gaussian function gets thinner and taller (it's area remaining the same) .. the width of the Gaussian provide the limits of plausibility of a measurement ... at some point one must accept that the gaussian is sharp enough  in one measurement to accpet that the central value is the correct one .. the width of the gaussian actually provides the error bars on a graph ...

Now ... evolution has been measured over and over again and repeateddly been confirmed ... now ... even including (Beconvinced's hoaxes) the weight of evidence is enough that science has accepted Darwin's theory as fact (contingently of course ...we are always ready to test new hypothesis) ....

The proposals of religions and belief are unmeasurable and untestable.

That is why they require Belief ... no ? If you could measure it then you no longer require belief and it becomes mundane knowledge .. not mystical knowledge ...

This makes them entirely seperate from Science ...

Of course it requires belief, or faith. That's the whole point isn't it?

Science is limited to measurement, and that's why it can never be used to explain everything, because not everything is measureable by science. It would be naive to think so.

This is why God is always hiding in the places Science has yet to explain .. like the afterlife and Creation ... Before this time .. God was used to explain the rising of the sun and the changing of the weather .. as science explained these things God became redundant .. and squeezed into a smaller and smaller space ... Now he only seems to have these two places left ..

This is what is known as "The God of the Gaps"

God isn't hiding in gaps. Just because he has power over everything doesn't mean he's literally, physically everywhere.



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http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 6:30pm

"Science is limited to measurement, and that's why it can never be used to explain everything, because not everything is measureable by science. It would be naive to think so."

Do you think it's less or more naieve to assume you have all the answers wihtout any measurement at all ?



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: Kayyam
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by sammy


Why do you think its possible for Allah swt to create Prophet Isa pbuh (Jesus) without a father, but impossible for him to create Adam pbuh without parents and as the first man??

Sammy, I don't know the answer to that question. I am rather dubious of miracles so I guess I don't believe this story 100%.

Maybe this thread should be renamed: "insight into the mind of Kayyam".

Kayyam


Posted By: sammy
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 9:47pm
Kayyam

Thnk you for being honest....
now i'll stop stalking  u


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A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM


Posted By: muslimapoclyptc
Date Posted: 04 May 2006 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by steady

"Science is limited to measurement, and that's why it can never be used to explain everything, because not everything is measureable by science. It would be naive to think so."

Do you think it's less or more naieve to assume you have all the answers wihtout any measurement at all ?

I'd probably have to say more.



-------------
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - Islamic Awareness

My website: www.geocities.ws/muslimapocalyptic/future_is_for_islam.htm - The Future is for Islam


Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 12:47am
I admire your honesty muslim

-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: hafsa
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 9:10am

 I have heard from a very illuminating scholar a lecture on this topic.  What he said if I understood well can be summarized as this: a man has a roohani (spiritual) part and an animal part. The roohani divine is related to Allah himself, as He says: ‘I have made man from My Rooh (Khalaqto Min Roohi)’, imagine. So our spirit has some connection with Allah, although this is not a physical or material part, nor can it be fully explained or understood. But it has some connection to Him.

The other side of a man is the Haiwaani or animal side, which is created from clay. The source of man is given as 1.Sand  2.Clay 3.Clay and water  4.Stickiness in it 5.Fermented form of the above 6.Dried after fermentation so that it made noise on shaking

 All this being given it is also told that water is the source of life of everything. Also told that you were grown from earth as does grow.

 So some evidence exists that there has been evolution of creations. It was also referred some one thousand years before Mr. Darwin by Roomi etc. in some way.

However this evolution is possible only in the earthly animal side of man. When this was complete, and a perfect human of this side was formed, it was then that Allah put Rooh in him, making him a complete entity in the form of Adam Alayhis Salaam first.

It is a great mistake that a person sees himself only as an animal, and thus puts focus only on his animal instincts. Thus his spiritual side diminishes to such an extent that he becomes worse than animals.

By doing noble deeds, such as caring for others, limiting our requirements, keeping closeness to Allah, develops our Rooh.

( Fasting specially develops our Rooh. That is why 1. Allah allots sawaab/ thawaab for many good deeds from 10 times to as much as 700 times sometimes, but for Saum (fasting) He says I will reward it myself, as Rooh is concerned with Him. 2. those who cannot afford a wife are advised to keep Saum other than Ramadaan too, with higher frequency, so that their attention has greater shift towards their spiritual side or Rooh.)



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Posted By: steady
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 3:52pm

Hafsa ...

this is a bizzarre, mangled attempt to fit what we already know into the context of your religious beliefs ...

Illuminating in what way ? 

I see only fuddled words and no logic in what you posted ..

What on earth do you mean by ...

"The other side of a man is the Haiwaani or animal side, which is created from clay. The source of man is given as 1.Sand  2.Clay 3.Clay and water  4.Stickiness in it 5.Fermented form of the above 6.Dried after fermentation so that it made noise on shaking"

???????????

Please answer this question and the question I asked you earlier ... why do you "prefer Popper" ?



-------------
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 4:20pm
Hmm..as far as I can understand, it means that we are made of

1.Sand  2.Clay 3.Clay and water  4.Stickiness in it 5.Fermented form of the above 6.Dried after fermentation so that it made noise on shaking

Fair enough.


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 4:22pm
We are maracas?

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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: Rhoda
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 4:48pm
When this was complete, and a perfect human of this side was formed,

I wasn't aware that a perfect physical human had been formed. One with no appendix or wisdom teeth, for example? But then, what is a perfect human in the physical sense? Female, probably, but what are the other parameters?


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No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up. (Lily Tomlin)


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 05 May 2006 at 4:50pm

I think that i'm just about perfect. 

Maybe saying that negates my perfectitude.  Perfectosity.  Perfectism.  Whatever, i stand corrected.



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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: hafsa
Date Posted: 06 May 2006 at 8:48am
Originally posted by steady

Hafsa ...

this is a bizzarre, mangled attempt to fit what we already know into the context of your religious beliefs ...

Illuminating in what way ? 

I see only fuddled words and no logic in what you posted ..

What on earth do you mean by ...

"The other side of a man is the Haiwaani or animal side, which is created from clay. The source of man is given as 1.Sand  2.Clay 3.Clay and water  4.Stickiness in it 5.Fermented form of the above 6.Dried after fermentation so that it made noise on shaking"

???????????

Please answer this question and the question I asked you earlier ... why do you "prefer Popper" ?

what i was telling about, in my text was the various stages man as i said the animal side of man has evolved. these are clues we get at various places that i put together to explain that they are linked with each other and expalin as i understand evolution.

thereby per the view of the scholar i heard, i believe that the life originated on land as follows and subsequently man was formed.

first when it rained on earth, clay (mud) and thereby mires were formed.  then fermentation of these occured. as we see, when these mires are dried, they crack from the surface and if we check it, it 'makes noise on shaking' as i translated and what i saw in translations as 'sounding clay'.

this is the place where life originated.

after this fermentation inorganics have been progressed towards organics, and the ball of evolution started rolling.

Quran uses the following words:

1. Turaab: dust/ earth.

2. Teen: clay

3. Teen -e- Laazid : that clay or mud inwhich fermantation occurs and it becomes sticky.

4.Min Hama im Masnoon : that fermented clay which has dried

5.Min Salsaal im Min Hama im Masnoon : dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.

although all this was not required to be given. only one word made from earth/ dust would have done the job. but these are precise clues given to us.

THEREFORE:

"002.028 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return. "

  • regarding his second question in which he politely asks me why do you "prefer Popper" ?

ans: because i respect others i have a capacity to learn from them, and quote them.

 

 



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