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Convoluted Convert arguments (cont.)

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Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
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URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22249
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Topic: Convoluted Convert arguments (cont.)
Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Subject: Convoluted Convert arguments (cont.)
Date Posted: 26 March 2008 at 11:32am
Coming from this thread http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22225 - Convert: Magdi Allam
 
 
Originally posted by http://www.whyislam.org/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2168&FID=38 - amoxoxoma

]The issue wasn't who has the most impressive list of converts, but whether there has ever been a real muslim convert to christianity. To deny this is pure absurdity.
 
 
...............Now back to you. Don't invent my point of view to make yours, I know the topic had nothing to do with a list of converts, especially since I already stated on page 1 (of http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22225 - Convert: Magdi Allam ) "p.s.  just coz a religious person from another faith converts doesn't mean he/she is more important than a non-religious person making the same decision."
 
Heh.....this is too easy.
 
 
Originally posted by lttony

..... I will concede the point..... 
 
1st HORSEMAN 
 
Of course you concede, not like you had much of a choice, you can't even support your own arguments, let alone those of others. I'll ignore half your post that's unrelated, mostly coz those parts made no sense, unintelligible, etc.
 
2nd HORSEMAN
 
Daniel Ali isn't a scholar, he probably still mad at W. Shoebat for filling his role. DA's claim to fame is writing Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics and he couldn't even do that himself, he had to have Robert Spencer write it with him. As you probably (don't) know, Spencer claims to be a scholar as well lol...
 
3rd HORSEMAN
 
But onto the part where I deconstruct the argument you've presented. Even if we were to take enough  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelics%2C_dissociatives_and_deliriants - hallucinogenic drugs  to sedate an entire african village, we would not be able to ignore the fact that when D.A. was a muslim, he was not a scholar. His purported scholarship only came later....
 
4th HORSEMAN
 
Ergo, you still can't list one single muslim scholar who converted to Christianity, especially Catholicism. It's like you found a list and added categories to it thinking no one would check.....isn't this how you were caught last time lol...?
 
 
edited to add: Like I said before, exposing your deception is actually pretty easy.... I now just assume everything you say has lies in it & work backwards to find whatever remains are true, like Howard Carter (you're gonna have to look him up, aren't you?) ...Anyway, unfortunately for you, in this case, I found there was no truth at all. You just mad coz u caught....again!
 
****************************************************
 
Originally posted by http://www.whyislam.org/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2168&FID=38 - amoxoxoma , (and I am so grateful for this post, so much material to work with....)

]
 
 I reiterate, it is patently absurd to claim  that no real muslim has ever converted to christianity.
 
M.  has missed the point entirely and completely and would rather engage in mental masturbation by argueing with a paper tiger, quibbling over words, and calling others liers.
 
It's pointless to  discuss anything with one so blinded by hubris. (And the superciliousness in particular is plain for all to see, and sadly, applauded by muslims on this forum}
 
Petty denigration of others and persistent argument for argument's sake and the attendant juvenile chest pounding is quite pathetic. As if you have slain the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse - Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death - talk about grandiose
 
 
not here, next post.
 


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Replies:
Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 26 March 2008 at 11:51am
If I may interject... I know it seems 'absurd' to claim that a real Muslim could not convert, but as a revert to Islam I can see why this was said.  Once you understand and accept the true Islam you could never turn on it.  So I think that what is being said is that most people that claim to be Muslims that convert to Christianity, never really understood Islam to begin with.  For one, Islam is very focused on the Oneness of God (Allah), and shirk (associating partners with Allah) is a major sin... Any Muslim that understands this concept could never accept that Jesus was the actual son of God.. devine, etc. 

I don't think it was said to be mean, its just really what we believe. 


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Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 26 March 2008 at 11:59am
Don't fall for it Jamilah,  Amo confused the discussion about scholars with the one about laymen..
 
Aaaah, this is where I feel most in my element....like I'm back in british school (miss those days oh so...)
 
 
I reiterate, it is patently absurd to claim  that no real muslim has ever converted to christianity.
 
I reiterate your reiteration makes no sense. Re-read, preferably sloooowly this time. The response was only about the false claim that he had a list of scholars and muslim clerics who converted. I exposed that this list didn't contain any.
 
 
M.  has missed the point entirely and completely and would rather engage in mental masturbation by argueing with a paper tiger, quibbling over words, and calling others liers.
 
Ok, I could do a whole Freudian slip thing about your mental masturbation bit, but please, get away from me with that stuff. Don't get perverted on me. Also, I don't know if you realize, but the paper tiger you're referring to is lttony, you actually came to his defense by insulting him. Collateral Damage I guess.....
 
 
quibbling over words, and calling others liers.
 
This is a forum, words are our currency. I didn't call other liers, I called one person a liar. I have a long list of lies to prove it. I've also called him a bunch of other things, you should rack up a defense of those coz you're doing such a wonderful job on this.
 
 
It's pointless to  discuss anything with one so blinded by hubris. (And the superciliousness in particular is plain for all to see, and sadly, applauded by muslims on this forum}
 
Now this is what I call convoluted....who talks like this??? You kidding, you couldn't  even differentiate the topic between scholars and laymen and you think I believe you ever talk like this w/o a lifetime subscription to a Thesaurus group lol....
 
FACT: No muslim on this forum applauds my antics when I choose to use them. The mods/admins specifically advise me otherwise. The most I 've ever gotten in support are the public ones you see and sometimes, pm's from various members laughing along (with me, at you guys). Last one I got was a some weeks ago, scratch that, last one I got was right now....but they're not daily for sure. Hell, it's not just from muslims either - so really, mankind is to blame (and this is where the 4 horsemen come in - more below).
 
 
Petty denigration of others and persistent argument for argument's sake and the attendant juvenile chest pounding is quite pathetic. As if you have slain the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse - Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death - talk about grandiose
 
Hey, I just exposed a few lies, in most places this is considered a good thing. Look at Hillary's Bosnia fiasco, c'mon, isn't that funny? Same here. What do you teach your children about truthtelling, that's it's a waste of time??????
 
About the 4 horsemen....you took that a lil' too literally. How do you know I wasn't referring to george, dick, condi and karl. Or slow, sluggish, half-wit and simple. Or maybe I was referring to metallica.....oh there are so many possibilities.
 
 


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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 26 March 2008 at 12:07pm
Put down the coffee.... step away from the coffee.. :)

Anyway, I have no idea if any REAL muslim has ever converted to chirstianity, but I was just pointing out why it was possibly sent...

And I agree about the mental M-ation... ewwww. I hate words like that.


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Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 26 March 2008 at 12:16pm
lol.......yeah.
 
Sorry you had to see that.


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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: MeInUSA
Date Posted: 26 March 2008 at 6:26pm
Personally, I think a person would have to be a little mentally off not to believe there are many Muslims who convert to Christianity & other religions, including Imans/scholars, etc, and vice versa. We see Muslims constantly saying Muslims do not leave Islam. There's a UTube video of a shiek (Muslim) on Al Jazeera saying how 600-something Muslims in Africa convert to Christianity every hour. Muslims immediately start jumping all over Christians & calling them liars. When it is pointed out to them that it's a Muslim saying it on a Muslim TV channel in a Muslim country, I think they go into shock. There are also many Muslims in Muslim countries converting to Christianity right now...more than ever before. Most of these Muslims are saying they are converting b/c of dreams/visions/dreams of Jesus calling them to Him. So many Muslims have said this, in fact, they are doing studies on it in California. God tells us in the Bible He will call many ppl to Him in the last days via dreams/visions/miracles. But what are Muslims doing now that this has gone around for sometime now? They are saying Christian missionaries are paying these ppl money to convert to Christianity, which I think is really cruel to say, not to mention ignorant. You can't bribe ppl to convert to any religion. All they have to do is say they will convert, take the money, aid, or whatever and never convert. Missionaries have been going to these places for many, many years, tho, with little to no luck in converting Muslims but now all of a sudden 10s of 1000s of them are converting to Christianity & Muslims have to make up lies about why??? I just think that pretty cruel. They are also starting to kill the converts now, which is really sad.  God is clearly at work & doing what He said He would do & nothing & nobody can stop it from happening & missionaries have little to nothing to do with it. I wish people would just worship as they wish and let everyone else worship as they wish as long as they are not hurting anyone physically. 


Posted By: amoxoxoma
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 2:11am
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

lol.......yeah.
 
Sorry you had to see that.
 
There was nothing convuluted in my response to al-Cordoby's obviously overreaching-statement
 
"Priests and people of knowledge of Christianity convert to Islam, whereas you will not find a practicing Muslim who has knowledge of Islam convert to Christianity
 
That's a tremendous difference."
to which I said:
 
"that is the most grandiose generalization I've seen you put in "print" the whole time you've been posting on WI."
to which you said:
"I can confirm Al-Cordoby's statement, I've never heard of a practicing muslim convert to Catholicism. Muslims might do many other things, but this isn't one of them."
Since neither of you seem willing, or able, to admit your clear insult to the intelligence of christians  by substituting your opinion for a fact, it is pointless to engage you on this inter-religious dialogue forum.
 
al-Cordoby I can forgive for his exuberance, but I have to wonder why he has not shown the courage to appear and answer for his statement.
 
You, Marwan, I leave to the mercy of God.
 
edited to P.S.
Thanks for the spelling correction.... As Big Bird on Sesame Street used to sing "... everyone makes mistakes, oh yes they do..."
 
 
....  if you have a good vocabulary - don't be afraid to use it.  It exercises the brain and educates the reader. Sometimes the correct meaning is best expressed by a word that may not be in common usage. That attitude comes from being raised by a father with a MA in English from Stanford.


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The more deeply we are our true selves, the less self is in us.
Meister Eckhart


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 2:22am
Christians tell me all the time that I must not have been a "real Christian" if I converted to Islam.

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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: amoxoxoma
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 2:40am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Christians tell me all the time that I must not have been a "real Christian" if I converted to Islam.
 
Do you mean to imply that converts to Islam from christianity were all, like you, "real" christians? But muslim converts to christianity are never "real" muslims?
 
Or vice versa?
 
Isn't it  preposterous to hold either point of view?
 
 


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The more deeply we are our true selves, the less self is in us.
Meister Eckhart


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Christians tell me all the time that I must not have been a "real Christian" if I converted to Islam.
 
All the time?  That's sad.  If you say you were a christian, then you were, IMO.  I'll let Christ decide who is christian.
At the same time, however, I've mentioned to you in the past that your beliefs back then and your environment of what was understood regarding christian doctrine was......different.


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"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Christians tell me all the time that I must not have been a "real Christian" if I converted to Islam.


I get that too. 


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 12:31pm
 
Aaaah, this is where I feel most in my element....like I'm back in british school (miss those days oh so...) 
 
Oh, so that explains your childishness.
 
This is a forum, words are our currency. I didn't call other liers, I called one person a liar. I have a long list of lies to prove it. I've also called him a bunch of other things,
 
"A long list... a bunch of other things."  LOL, oh geez.
 
Mind providing that list of "lies."??
And you've called me alright, a "bunch" of names is about it.  Why not, you've carte blanche from the admin.
And I admit -- as you should -- that out of 2700+ posts I could have been more precise at times.  But lying.  No.  Absolutely not.
Now, how about that "long" list?
 
 
ones you see and sometimes, pm's from various members laughing along (with me, at you guys). Last one I got was a some weeks ago, scratch that, last one I got was right now....but they're not daily for sure. Hell, it's not just from muslims either - so really, mankind is to blame (and this is where the 4 horsemen come in - more below).
 
I don't know what is more hilarious and pathetic: the convoluted and absurd logic you express in your insipid posts (4 horsemen???), or when you cyber-high five yourself for imagined victories.  Can't say that it surprisesany of us; reality must really suck for you.


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"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Originally posted by Aviatrix

Christians tell me all the time that I must not have been a "real Christian" if I converted to Islam.


I get that too. 
 
I think we all get it in one way or another, at one time or another.  Anyone with a religious faith is going to get it, although some admittedly are worse than others.


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"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 1:48pm
You two are secretly best friends right?

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Posted By: MedGirl
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

You two are secretly best friends right?


lol


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Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 2:45pm

Notice, btw, he completely ignores being exposed for the fake "scholar" list from wikipedia.

To answer your question, I'd rather be friends with the pig in his avatar.
 
 
At least the pig doesn't lie (he just smells)
 
 
fun fact after the break.


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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 2:45pm

In the art of Christianity, the pig is considered an unclean symbol of lust, greed, and gluttony.

Saint Anthony the Great, also known as St. Anthony Abbott (251–356), retreated from wealth to live as a hermit in the desert of Egypt. He resisted many temptations sent by the devil until his death at the age of 105. His great holiness attracted others who came to live near him, and he is often considered the father of Christian monasticism. Usually carrying a staff and pictured as an old man, he is associated with a pig which represents his victory over the demon of gluttony. A pig can be seen in the background of the painting "The Visitation with Saint Nicholas and Saint Anthony Abbot "(1490), seen here in this detail depicting http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Piero_di_Cosimo_025.jpg - Saint Anthony  (note: see the pig in the background), by the Florentine painter Piero di Cosimo (1462-1521).

Today pigs may be considered to be symbols of good fortune, thrift, and savings. Children are traditionally given piggy banks to encourage them to save.

Source:

Bailey, Colin J. “The Art Quiz Book: 2000+ Questions on Painters and Paintings.” Station Press: Scotland, 1995



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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by MeInUSA

...There's a UTube video of a shiek (Muslim) on Al Jazeera saying how 600-something Muslims in Africa convert to Christianity every hour. Muslims immediately start jumping all over Christians & calling them liars....
 
I haven't seen this video, but why would muslim start jumping all over Christians & calling them liars, it's not like they were talking to ltTony were they?
 
According to you, this was a muslim shk. Nevermind that for now, first thing's first, let's study the #'s..
 
 
  • As of yesterday, there are ~ almost 900,000,000 people in Africa.
  • About 45% are Christian, and about 12% are something else (take your pick). This leaves 387,000,000 muslims.
  • According to my Monroe 7130 calculator (made in Malaysia btw), there are 8,766 hrs in a year. At this rate 600/hr rate==>  ~5,260,000 muslims would convert yearly.
  • This means that in 73 years only*, the muslim population should cease to exist in all of Africa. I've heard this number for years, so I assume this rate isn't new. This means that my cousins, or their future unborn children, are about to  convert.............................oh....hmmm.............I better call them.
 
 Do you still believe this number?
 
 
*for purposes of this test, I suspended certain probabilities, namely, the ability for African Muslims to produce babies during this time. I just pretended they started raising pigs instead. The influx of Christian converts, I assume, would raise Christian babies since existing muslims were diminishing at the speed of 600/hr.


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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 3:33pm
I didn't literally mean "all the time" in case anyone was confused. Rather, it's a refrain I frequently hear. People say things like that, I think, to make them feel more safe and secure regarding their own faith. I.e., nobody who really believed what I believe would convert to that... or especially, nobody who really understood my religion would leave it.
 
I read a lot of stories of Muslims who converted to Christianity before I embraced Islam. In all cases, the factor for their conversion was not faith or their belief, but more mundane things like where their friends were, who was easier to get along with--a lot of times a troubling marriage (to a Muslim) was the impetus to leave the faith.
 
People have their own reasons for picking a religion, if they do that. Muslims are told that Allah guides whom He pleases, and leads astray... so there is no problem for me at least to see a Muslim leave Islam--it's almost expected.
 
If a person can live his whole life like a person of Paradise, and do one act which lands him in Hellfire, and if he can live his life like a person of Hellfire and do one act which lands him in Paradise... then really, anyone--even a "scholar"--can be guided away from Islam.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 4:50pm
Oh yeah...my religion can beat up your religion.
Seriously...you guys sound like a bunch of school children bickering and arguing about things that neither of you can prove.
Grow up.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 5:04pm
Just because you have no proof of either religion does not mean the same applies to us.
 
Also, you're in the wrong thread. The evidence/proof threads have been archived.
 
 
 
 


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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by scruggnut

Seriously...you guys sound like a bunch of school children bickering and arguing about things that neither of you can prove.
Grow up.
 
Thank you.


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"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

Just because you have no proof of either religion does not mean the same applies to us.
 
Also, you're in the wrong thread. The evidence/proof threads have been archived.
 
 
 
 
Okay, just try to be an adult, alright.  I know it's hard; but you can do it if you give your ego a rest.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 5:34pm
Hey, ltony's religion requires blind faith, that's why (among other reasons) he can't say much. Mine doesn't, so I'm fully convinced of what I'm saying and am able to defend it.
 
 
About ego, the Pope Benedict XVI says: “ http://thinkexist.com/quotation/we-are-moving-toward-a-dictatorship-of-relativism/348264.html - We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one's own ego and one's own desires... The church needs to withstand the tides of trends and the latest novelties.... We must become mature in this adult faith, we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. ”
 
Luckily for me, I don't believe in the Pope. Actually, come to think of it, I don't believe in luck either, so I must be on to something.
 
Frankly I don't see where ego come's into play anywhere.
 
Besides, I'm such a nice guy.


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http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml - www.islamonline.net


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 27 March 2008 at 5:48pm
Salam

This is embarassing to read.  Closing.


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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/



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