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Jesus in Islam

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
Forum Discription: Forum for people of various faiths to discuss and inquire about different religions
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22286
Printed Date: 16 June 2019 at 9:38pm
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Topic: Jesus in Islam
Posted By: waheed1
Subject: Jesus in Islam
Date Posted: 28 March 2008 at 11:53pm
The Messiah

A very important personality to Muslims, Jesus Christ is mentioned by name in the Qur'an twenty-five times. He was Al-Maseeh [The Messiah], awaited by the Jewish people. The Jewish people expected a leader to defeat their enemies in a military conflict, however Jesus had a much greater and more difficult of a task, i.e. a mission of spiritual priorities and renewal, a rejuvenation of the intent of the law [of Moses], rather than blind obedience to ritual and tradition.

Woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you Hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the most important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. [Matthew 23:23-24]


..Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and all your mind and all your strength. The second is this-'Love your neighbor as yourself' there is no commandments greater than these [Mark 12: 29-31]


Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. [ Luke 11:42]

Died for mankind's sins?

The current ideas associated with the Messiah in Christendom, such as his death-sacrifice as atonement for mankind's sins, is not supported by Islamic teachings. We would like to point out some of the following Biblical texts food for thought.

"[John the Baptist said] Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves 'We have Abraham as our father' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire" [Matt. 3:8-10]


In this Biblical text, we have a lesson of personal responsibility and deeds which must be shown to have some sort of positive effect. Otherwise, faith is not useful to the believer. Also of interest, from the Bible, is Matt. 12:33, 13:31-34.

The same essential teaching is given in the Qur'an.

...And none can bear the burdens of another. Then, to your Lord is your return, he will tell you the truth of that which you disagreed about [Q 6:164]
 For more, go to http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2008/01/jesus-in-islam.html - http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2008/01/jesus-in-islam.html

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Replies:
Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 11:49am
waheed if there is one thing that I gathered from my readings, it is that jesus himself seemed utterly convinced that his death would reconcile man and G_D.

it is utterly pointless to suggest otherwise to christians.

to put it simply -
Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

John 10:11,15 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

There is simply no other way to look at it.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 8:02pm
At the very end, according to the Gospel account, Jesus says to God "If it be your will, let this cup pass away from me", an expression showing he did not want to die. In  any case, there is much more to the original article on the blog.

Comment there as well, and I promise that [God-willing] I will respond.

Regards,
S.Waheed


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 8:03pm
 
I'm anxious to read your response.


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 10:43pm
waheed, i believe you were christian to start off with right?

I am therefore surprised by your response.
According to christians, Jesus was fully human, and went through the crucifixion feeling everything.

It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain.

So I dont doubt that whilst he knew he would do it, it scared the heck out of him.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 11:30pm
Actually I am a born Muslim.

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 9:24am
Current threads of Christianity suggest that Jesus has died for mankind's sins. Certainly that is not a teaching given in Islam, and it can reasonably be seen from texts in the Bible that personal responsibility, as well as actions ["deeds"] are necessary for "salvation".

Which takes me from an issue removed from Jesus. Would a just and merciful God punish me for the deeds of my ancestors, ancestors far removed from me and my own actions, deeds and thoughts? Can I  punish your son for you stealing money from me?

If that is God, there is no need for me to worship him then!

Algebra, history has shown that there are perhaps millions of ways at looking at Jesus. Some early accounts tried to suggest that in reality, Jesus as a person did not exist, such was the view of some Gnostics. Many people see him as God, many [such as Muslims] see him as a great teacher and Prophet, and the list goes on and on...

The question is now posed, which account or understanding of the nature of Jesus, and of our own human nature, is the correct and most logical one?


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by algebra

waheed if there is one thing that I gathered from my readings, it is that jesus himself seemed utterly convinced that his death would reconcile man and G_D.

it is utterly pointless to suggest otherwise to christians.

to put it simply -
Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
 
Matthew 26:27,28 And he (Jesus) took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood of the New
Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
Notice that Jesus makes a substitution:  he gives them wine to drink, saying it is his blood which is shed. And he said it was for many, not for all man.
 
That substitution prefigures another substitution which takes place on the cross, as individual sinners through the ages realize their guilt and identify with "the likeness of sinful flesh" slain on the cross, acknowledging their own worthiness to die, but repenting and reforming themselves to follow after the example set by Jesus and all the prophets.
 
As Waheed pointed out, the Bible teaches repentance for the remission of sins, and that good works are to be brought forth in keeping with repentance. Jesus certainly did not negate that teaching.

Originally posted by Algebra

John 10:11,15 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

 
Again, there is a very pertinent verse left out of the midst of your quote: "No man takes my life from me, but I lay it down of myself" that equates to the Quran's statement "they killed him not, nor crucified him".

Originally posted by Algebra

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. . .
 
That is John 8:24, verse 25 continues the dialogue:  Then they said unto him, Who art thou?  And Jesus answered, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
 
From the beginning of his ministry, Jesus had proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, and that is the detail about himself which he indicated that it was necessary for men to believe or else they would die in their sins.


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by algebra


According to christians, Jesus was fully human, and went through the crucifixion feeling everything.

It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain.

 
This is another anomaly, worthy of comment.
 
All the sacrifices in the Law of Moses were killed relatively painlessly:  their throat was slit and they quickly bled to death.
 
The victim on the cross however suffered a tortuous death:  beaten with whips beforehand, mocked, spit upon, slapped, beard pulled out, made to carry a heavy piece of wood up a hill, then nailed through the hands and feet to that piece of wood, struggling to breathe amidst the pain until he finally suffocated or his breath gave out.
 
That is not the OT picture of a sacrifice by any means, but relates more to the sort of tortuous death that criminals were to suffer according to the Law of Moses.
 
The scene on the cross, to all appearances a holy innocent man made to suffer a shameful death, is supposed to strike the conscience of sinners to realize that they deserve to die, not Jesus.
 
And the effect that is accomplished thereby, according to the New Testament, is that the believer identifies with the slain victim, "the likeness of sinful flesh", but is transformed in character to become like Jesus, righteous and pure.
 
Though Islam does not feature the crucifixion, it does promote the reformation of character that is in keeping with repentance for the forgiveness of sins, both of which Jesus also taught.
 


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:31pm

Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
John 10:11,15 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Waheed:  Here and at your blog you avoid the question at hand.  You write what you think and a little bit of what the quran says, and a mention a couple of Bible quotes that only you seems to think relates to algebra's verses.  That's it.

You write: "...can reasonably be seen from texts in the Bible that personal responsibility, as well as actions ["deeds"] are necessary for 'salvation'." Yes, we have some responsibilities as believers.  None of that would amount to anything without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

You ask: "Would a just and merciful God punish me for the deeds of my ancestors, ancestors far removed from me and my own actions, deeds and thoughts? Can I  punish your son for you stealing money from me?"

Is there anything you wouldn't do for your children? I can accept "...And none can bear the burdens of another" but your personal rationalizations are shallow to me.  Regardless, the teachings of Jesus Himself and of His Apostles THROUGHOUT the NT make it clear Christ died for us.  I have no problem if you don't accept that, or the Quran says otherwise, but trying to use the Bible to reinforce your argument only undermines it.

"If Christ had promised salvation without giving His life, the demands of mercy would certainly have been fulfilled. In order to satisfy the demands of justice also, Christ paid the ransom, which was His precious blood. In this way God has manifested His love for us. "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I John 4:10).  Mark Hanna

You asked: The question is now posed, which account or understanding of the nature of Jesus, and of our own human nature, is the correct and most logical one?

Again, your personal musings need to be fleshed out a bit more.  To you and many others, it is illogical.  To me and many others, it is logical and repeatedly affirmed in scripture.



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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:43pm
Notice that Jesus makes a substitution:  he gives them wine to drink, saying it is his blood which is shed. And he said it was for many, not for all man.
What? "Many" but "not all?"  How many?   It's OK for you to beleive this, but it is not supported by Christ's teachings.  I mean how far do you want to take that line of thought?  When Christ said "for all men" did he just mean the guys?  When He was talking about His sheep did He literally mean farm animals?
 
That substitution prefigures another substitution which takes place on the cross, as individual sinners through the ages realize their guilt and identify with "the likeness of sinful flesh" slain on the cross, acknowledging their own worthiness to die, but repenting and reforming themselves to follow after the example set by Jesus and all the prophets.
 
Huh?  Eldon, don't get me wrong; you seem like a nice guy.  But I have to say your argument has completely gone whack here.
The substitution prefigures another substitution?  You mean the double cross on the cross... "the likeness of sinful flesh"?  Again, you are obviously free to believe that theory, but the Bible CLEARLY doesn't teach that.
 
As Waheed pointed out, the Bible teaches repentance for the remission of sins, and that good works are to be brought forth in keeping with repentance. Jesus certainly did not negate that teaching.
 
Here I can agree with you, in principal.


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:50pm
Again, there is a very pertinent verse left out of the midst of your quote: "No man takes my life from me, but I lay it down of myself" that equates to the Quran's statement "they killed him not, nor crucified him".
 
Well, you are free to read it that way, obviously.  But if you just read, ""No man takes my life from me, but I lay it down of myself" just by itself, how would you interpret it?  With me, no Bible context is even necessary.  It means, "Nobody can take my life, only if I let them by giving it up myself." 
But then do add Bible context (all the many quotes where Jesus says He will die for us and passages where the Apostles teach that), and I don't know how it could be any clearer.


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:59pm
That is John 8:24, verse 25 continues the dialogue:  Then they said unto him, Who art thou?  And Jesus answered, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
 
From the beginning of his ministry, Jesus had proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, and that is the detail about himself which he indicated that it was necessary for men to believe or else they would die in their sins.
 
 
Yes, verse 25 is likely speaking of the beginning of His ministry.  But you want to talk about dialogue?  Then read ALL of John 8;. Heck, ALL of John.  Then you will see the dialogue around verse 25 hinges on His "that I AM" declaration (which has been discussed at WI).


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 6:09pm
That is not the OT picture of a sacrifice by any means, but relates more to the sort of tortuous death that criminals were to suffer according to the Law of Moses.
 
Interesting.  I admire you thinking for yourself.  Your thought above is not something I have read here before.
 
What I think is this:  yes, Christ was given a criminal's death.  He was executed by the Romans, not the Jews.  While the Jews had a religious beef with Jesus, this was of no concern to the Romans, only possible civil unrest.  So although there many OT parallels (Passover, etc.), Jesus was not sacrificed on an altar or in a temple like OT animals.
 
Again though, I wouldn't hang my hat on this.  To me, there is overwhelming evidence that Christ was crucified; that He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. 
 
 


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 6:16pm
 
The scene on the cross, to all appearances a holy innocent man made to suffer a shameful death, is supposed to strike the conscience of sinners to realize that they deserve to die, not Jesus.
 
And the effect that is accomplished thereby, according to the New Testament, is that the believer identifies with the slain victim, "the likeness of sinful flesh", but is transformed in character to become like Jesus, righteous and pure.
 
I take it that you are getting all the "appearances" and "transformed" stuff from the Quran, because not of which you are speculating on is supported in Christian scripture.  Yes, Christians are to be transformed, born again, et al, but not in the sense you are contemplating here.  Your theory is not "according to the New Testament."  Not to any reasonable, open-minded person it isn't.  Your building things backwards.  Starting with the Quran to disprove the Bible.  Which I understand; you're muslim.  But leave it with the Koran; it is NOT in the Bible.
 
Got to go.  Hopefully we can talk more later.
 


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 30 March 2008 at 9:45pm
Perhaps you are correct that my views are "shallow", but depth is not really needed in something like this. A person commits a crime, can we punish that person's children? The idea about the sacrifice of Jesus essentially states that God punished or allowed his own "begotten son" to be killed, to die, to take on the sins of mankind.

The OT says that anyone crucified, or hung from a tree, is cursed by God. In the same section, Deut. 22 if I'm not mistaken, it says that a person crucified is to be buried the same day. Christian tradition claims he [Jesus] took on the curse, and was buried three days later, rather than the day he was said to have been crucified.

to us, Jesus, as a messenger of God- is not to have that sort of fate. He is a dignified person in God's sight, no matter what has been claimed about him, he was "Raised by God to himself" in terms of status. He was not to suffer the fate of crucifixion. Not for our sins, or any other reason. That is the way we see it.


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:49am


to us, Jesus, as a messenger of God... He was not to suffer the fate of crucifixion. Not for our sins, or any other reason. That is the way we see it.
 
I understand that and respect it.  Please respect our belief in our scriptures and do not incorrectly use them to bolster your beliefs. Use the Quran all you want, of course.
 
...Deut. 22 if I'm not mistaken, it says that a person crucified is to be buried the same day. Christian tradition claims he [Jesus] took on the curse, and was buried three days later, rather than the day he was said to have been crucified.
 
That's not how it happened, according to Mark 15, among others.
 
Perhaps you are correct that my views are "shallow", but depth is not really needed in something like this.
 
I don't think "depth" is necessary, but I'm afraid something a little deeper is, in fact, required.
 
A person commits a crime, can we punish that person's children? The idea about the sacrifice of Jesus essentially states that God punished or allowed his own "begotten son" to be killed, to die, to take on the sins of mankind.
 
I've heard that analogy here before, and it just doesn't apply, IMO.  But this time I'll try to work within it.  No, the offspring shouldn't and aren't punished for their ancestors personal crimes.  But neither should those offspring be condemned to a life of crime with no chance for forgiveness, repentance or avoiding a completely criminal life-style.  Christ paid the price and give them the chance.
 
But the better reply is this:  "According to the New Testament gospels, Jesus fully expected that He would be suffer and be killed. He spoke of his death, not merely as something that would happen, but as something that must happen."  He did nothing to prevent it.  In fact, in some ways He hastened it. 
Now, it doesn't surprise me that some people do not understand His atoning blood sacrifice.  Christ's own disciples did not understand His predictions of His death.  It took a while for the implications to set in. So it doesn't surprise me that some people are unable or refuse to understand it. 
 
Now, where your "crime" analogy falls down for me is that man's sinful nature does not have the character of a personal fault. But it is clear from Islamic  and Christian teachings that Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise as punsihment for their sin. Even though they repented. They lost their original nature of holiness and justice. In other words, they lost it and we couldn't inherit what our parents don't have. 
 
"The problem in every society, and with every person, is that no one has ever been able to consistently obey their own moral code - not to mention God's moral code, without revising their code or rationalizing their bad behavior. The question is what DID God do? Not, what else could God have done?
God can do whatever God wishes. God established the concept of salvation, through the shedding of blood, long ago in the Old Testament and this has been a consistent theme throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
The question is not why didn't Almighty God do things my way or your way of thinking, but rather why did God do what He did?"


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:24pm
I think Brother Waheed1 has focused on the most telling point of the question:
 
The question is now posed, which account or understanding of the nature of Jesus, and of our own human nature, is the correct and most logical one?
 
According to the Bible and Quran, Jesus was the word and spirit of Allah, and a mortal human being, "made in all points like as we are, yet without sin". Our own nature is that we are only mortal human beings, not exceptional individual words and spirits of Allah, as he was.
 
The Bible tells us about Jesus, that he had no form nor comeliness, nor beauty that we should desire him. In another place it says of him, God sent his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Thus he looked like just an ordinary person, with flaws, imperfections in appearance, human limitations, etc, just like anyone else.
 
I think everyone agrees that the word and spirit of Allah could never have been killed. Where we disagree is in the appearance of what happened on the cross:  can it really be said that Jesus died there, considering all that he was, and is?
 
Even if you reject the idea that there was any sort of substitution made on the cross and that it was only the body of Jesus nailed there, do you think it is a fully accurate statement to make that the Jews killed him, knowing "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23) ?


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by LtTony

 
The scene on the cross, to all appearances a holy innocent man made to suffer a shameful death, is supposed to strike the conscience of sinners to realize that they deserve to die, not Jesus.
 
And the effect that is accomplished thereby, according to the New Testament, is that the believer identifies with the slain victim, "the likeness of sinful flesh", but is transformed in character to become like Jesus, righteous and pure.
 
I take it that you are getting all the "appearances" and "transformed" stuff from the Quran, because not of which you are speculating on is supported in Christian scripture.  Yes, Christians are to be transformed, born again, et al, but not in the sense you are contemplating here.  Your theory is not "according to the New Testament."  Not to any reasonable, open-minded person it isn't.  Your building things backwards.  Starting with the Quran to disprove the Bible.  Which I understand; you're muslim.  But leave it with the Koran; it is NOT in the Bible.
 
 
 
 
Actually, I started with the Bible, to disprove the Quran, but instead found concord between them.
 
No one can deny that the historical scene of the crucifixion has been placed before mankind and that it has been a major contemplation for religious people ever since.
 
New Testament verses such as I already posted here and in the other thread show that there was more to the crucifixion than what appeared to happen, so much so that the Quran's assessment "they killed him not, nor crucified him" can be seen as apt and valid.
 
If you want to focus only on what appeared to happen and ignore the unseen features, that is your choice, but don't say the verses I posted aren't in the NT!


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Islamway
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:46pm

Thanks for the article .. Jesus in Islam is one of the greatest prophets  .. he was the last prophet sent to the children of Israel .. and he taught people that religion is not just about laws and rituals but it has a no less important spiritual side .. something the Jews used to ignore.
The core message of Jesus was still the same as the rest of messengers (peace be upon them all) .. to worship Allah alone and to work righteously .. No prophet has ever asked people to worship him or make him a partner with Allah.

As for the second part of the article, here is something I want to add: although the concept of God in religions varies greatly .. yet the divine Justice remains as a major point of agreement .. Here we can see the problem with Christianity, it teaches that God is just, yet what their theology says is something completely otherwise.
- First we see that God damned all his creature to hell for being sinners .. that's unfair by all standards .. even according to the bible people are not equal, there are righteous and evil people, and treating them equally is not justice. Gen 18:25  Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"  
The bible also affirms that people get rewarded for their good deeds.

- Then we see that God had to fix this problem by making another act of injustice ..which is making an innocent man pay for the sins of others, instead of just forgiving them. Which is ,again, unfair by all means .. And it should be mentioned here that according to the Christian theology, it was not God's decision to save mankind but the decision of the human Jesus who offered himself for other people .. which makes the real savior of mankind a man not God.


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Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 8:43am
Christian tradition claims he [Jesus] took on the curse, and was buried three days later, rather than the day he was said to have been crucified.


I misstated. The Christian view is that he was killed, and rose from the dead three days later. Sorry for the mixup.

But neither should those offspring be condemned to a life of crime with no chance for forgiveness, repentance or avoiding a completely criminal life-style.  Christ paid the price and give them the chance.
 

But if they never committed a crime, and are innocent of the crime their ancestor did, why should Jesus Christ "pay a price' on their behalf?

Regards,
S.Waheed



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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: deep thought
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 10:23am
"It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain."
 
Well, one can also argue that it wasn't much of a sacrifice in that Jesus knew that he was God... Also,Jesus is time and time again said to make claims to being God... On the cross he cried out to God. hmmm, he cried to himself? He sacrificed himself so HE(being God) can forgive his own creation?
 
Just throwing my 2 cents in..

 


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 3:54pm
One thing I had to question the christians. If Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, why are their sacrifices for their humanity these days? I am thinking some of us ain't having no relationship with God because they don't have a independance if I am right. 

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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by deep thought

"It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain."
 
Well, one can also argue that it wasn't much of a sacrifice in that Jesus knew that he was God... Also,Jesus is time and time again said to make claims to being God... On the cross he cried out to God. hmmm, he cried to himself? He sacrificed himself so HE(being God) can forgive his own creation?
 
Just throwing my 2 cents in..

 
And when he cried, "why have you forsaken me"; did he mean that he had forsaken himself?  Kind of confusing, but a thing being confusing doesn't necessarily make it untrue.
Religion is a rather confusing issue for one who has many questions...it can be harder to understand than physics, which is only so much gibberish to me; but again, because i cannot understand it, that, in and of itself, does not make the thing in question untrue.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 4:20pm
Physics has nothing to do with one's standing before God, so I think that metaphor is not really applicable. The Qur'an again and again points to rational thought as a means to prove or disprove any idea or argument.

It says it is "For a thinking people' [Liqawmin Yattafakkaroon].When we investigate or think about religion, the basics should be easy for all to understand. If not, then we have a problem.


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 4:26pm
Methinks the metaphor was entirely lost on you; but cest la vie.
If you met my mother-in-law; you would rethink the religion for thinking people statement.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 5:34pm
I understood your original metaphor to mean that, in essence, we can't always understand everything, however that does not mean that the "thing" is inherently false. Right?

My response to that was that, using the example cited by Deep thought, if Jesus saw himself as God, why did he cry "why has thou forsaken me?"- the very foundation or the essence of the idea should pass the test of common sense and knowledge. You seem to agree  that indeed that idea, that he was God and still cried out as shown above- was indeed irrational, but you just have to accept it nonetheless because it is given in that manner in the Christian tradition.

I humbly disagree, and it is the contention of the Qur'an that we must think about our ideologies, examine them again and again to make sure that we are following the right teachings, that what we have is indeed from God and most useful for our religious views and practices.

For more on this, obtain my CD "Quranic spirituality".




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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 6:35pm

The very idea of a god who created us (and by inference, had us or our spirits with him to begin with); and released us into the world and populated said world with jinns and pigs and all manner of things to tempt us in order for us to either pass or fail the test, and thereby be with him in the same magical place that we started out in when he created us or to be sent into a place where we will be punished in the worst horrible ways; does not, in any way, shape or form, reek of common sense or knowledge. 

Whilst i agree that jesus calling out to himself about forsaking himself, doesn't seem logical; but by comparison to the above, tis a little thing...is it not?
Man, that's akin to my placing numerous types of drugs on my dining room table and when my daughter or son indulges in using some of them; i punish them in the worst possible ways.
No matter how you slice it, logical it isn't.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 6:46pm
Ironic that you mention "temptation" because I actually wrote a study about trials, temptation and tests as given in the Qur'an. The study took me quite a long time, and sufficient it is to say that there is a logic to "trial" at least as given in the Qur'an. I don't want to make a sales pitch, but nonetheless I invite you to obtain the work, called "Language of revelation" which discusses a number of subjects, set in a backround of Arabic language study.PM me if you're interested.

I don't want to go too much into it, but to use your metaphor God has created the universe and everyone therein not to be a "test" in the sense of seeing if your kids will take the drugs. The drugs are there for a reason, to help the kids. The drugs are not randomly placed there either.




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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:45am
I understand the logic of "trial"; but i also understand that, as a father, i do my best to keep such "trials" to a minimum as concerns my children...i wonder why god doesn't do the same.
Another thing is, i didn't create the trials; but god did...it just doesn't make any sense to me that allah wishes for us all to be with him; but one has to assume that prior to our creation; we were with him.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:48am
The principle, Prove all things, hold fast that which is True, explains both our testings in this world and the proper investigation of "religious truth".
 
Allah testing us in this world is to prove to us that we are His. All the prophets were tested in various ways, so how can we expect less?
 
The Old Testament quote, "Come let us reason together...", along with the NT quote above, shows that our Maker expects us to intensely examine purported truth to arrive at knowledge of the Genuine Article.
 
I well understand that people such as your mother in law can be QUITE a test, Scrug, but be assured that Truth is for thinking people.


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:04am
"thinking people" look into information on what they were commanded.

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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:09am
Originally posted by eldon

The principle, Prove all things, hold fast that which is True, explains both our testings in this world and the proper investigation of "religious truth".
 
Allah testing us in this world is to prove to us that we are His. All the prophets were tested in various ways, so how can we expect less?
 
The Old Testament quote, "Come let us reason together...", along with the NT quote above, shows that our Maker expects us to intensely examine purported truth to arrive at knowledge of the Genuine Article.
 
I well understand that people such as your mother in law can be QUITE a test, Scrug, but be assured that Truth is for thinking people.
If the statement, "prove all things, hold fast that which is true", is affirmation of religious truth, why then, is the existance of god an impossible thing to prove without the addition of a little thing called faith...which is not proof; but more of a feeling.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:25am
The existance of God is not an impossible thing to prove, He will fully prove Himself in the eyes of all Creation eventually. For now though, faith IS the test He designed for us all to take.
 
If we pass the test it is due to the evidence He has given and His help along the way. If we fail, it will be our failure, not His. I trust that He will be proven to have been more than fair to all concerned.


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 11:27am

Another non-answer...you guys are really good at this sort of thing.

I don't blame god for my not understanding what may be his message...if anything, it's a combination of my inability to grasp things which have no immediate discernable answer, and the fact that he has insisted upon choosing men to bring the message to us, rather than bring it to all of us himself.  If he could send gabriel to talk with muhammad...if he could talk to moses himself; why can't he do the same for me.
Granted, i do not consider myself a fraction of the man that they were; but if what he really wants is for all of us to accept and embrace him, then he must employ different means for different people; just as we must when trying to explain certain aspects of our ideologies.
What works for one doesn't work for another...and that, my friend, IS gods doing...not mine.
 


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 11:43am
don't blame god for my not understanding what may be his message...if anything, it's a combination of my inability to grasp things which have no immediate discernable answer, and the fact that he has insisted upon choosing men to bring the message to us, rather than bring it to all of us himself.  If he could send gabriel to talk with muhammad...if he could talk to moses himself; why can't he do the same for me.


Well, from an Islamic point of view, the Qur'an represents the last and final scripture. That does not negate the idea that God can, and does, communicate to us. We are told that God communicates through three ways, sending of a messenger, from behind a barrier or veil, and through inspiration.

I would like to say that one thing Muhammad represents is the fact that an average person, the "joe blow" has the ability, when going through sincere effort, to be blessed by God with profound communication. Muhammad was a normal man, and he made efforts in the form of praying and meditating, then he received the first revelation, and continued to do so for 23 years of his life. The Qur'an itself hints at this when God says "And He found you [Muhammad] astray, then guided you".

No superman or divine, semi-divine being or sacrifice is required. Rather, the potential inside ourselves has to be explored to get that bounty of God Almighty.

May peace be upon God's messengers.


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by deep thought

"It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain."
 
Well, one can also argue that it wasn't much of a sacrifice in that Jesus knew that he was God... Also,Jesus is time and time again said to make claims to being God... On the cross he cried out to God. hmmm, he cried to himself? He sacrificed himself so HE(being God) can forgive his own creation?
 
Just throwing my 2 cents in..
 
 
Hello, deep.  Good to see you back in the mix again.


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:21pm
waheed wrote: But if they never committed a crime, and are innocent of the crime their ancestor did, why should Jesus Christ "pay a price' on their behalf?
 
They are innocent of any crime committed by someone else.  But they will committ their own -- because it is in their nature -- and they need the opportunity to become justified before God, something that was lost by Adam.  Jesus gives then that opportunity with His sacrifice.


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:30pm
If you want to focus only on what appeared to happen and ignore the unseen features....
 
Yeah, I'll have to go with what "appeared" to hundreds or thousands of people, what the Apostles said, and -- most importantly -- what Jesus Himself about His death and resurrection, both before and after the fact.
 
"Unseen features."  And I thought muslims required "logic" in the faith.  You're really out there on that one, eldon.
 
 
...but don't say the verses I posted aren't in the NT!

 
Well, those verses and those words are there, but not the message you are conveying, IMO.
 


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"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: Giovanni
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:46pm
Can Christians please do me a favor and stick to the topic of Jesus in Islam.  That means to all Christians and Muslims, please leave the Bible and all Christian writings out and stick to what you are trying to prove solely on the Qu'ran.  Otherwise start a new post "Jesus in Islam and Christianity". 

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May the Love of God be With you.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 7:54am
But they will committ their own -- because it is in their nature -- and they need the opportunity to become justified before God, something that was lost by Adam.  Jesus gives then that opportunity with His sacrifice.


That is the difference. Christians believe that Jesus paid the price for all people, whereas we are taught in Islam that each and every person is judged on their own works and merits.


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: arafey
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 2:02am

Deleted post. My idea was already mentioned.




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