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I can't work it out...

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Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
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Topic: I can't work it out...
Posted By: Sqaruesi
Subject: I can't work it out...
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:17am
As I understand it, a conceptual Muslim objection to the idea of Jesus' crucifixion is that God would never let such a thing happen to a great prophet of his.  It would be too shameful.
 
However, if I'm correct in gathering that God himself caused all witnesses to be convinced that Jesus really did die on a cross, how does this relieve Jesus of even a particle of the shame involved?  The effect on the world's view of Jesus is exactly the same.
 
Or at least it would have been for 600 years, until the Qur'an came along to clear matters up.
 
One can't help wondering why God didn't send the Qur'an (or the relevant part of it) to the very generation that was otherwise totally deceived, by their own senses, about what really happened to Jesus.
 
In a nutshell, why didn't God simply whisk Jesus away from the danger, leaving it clear to everyone's senses that that was what he did, just as Jesus himself evaded it several times before, e.g. when Herod tried to kill him as a child, or when the Jews tried to catch him but he purposely slipped through their fingers?


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"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)



Replies:
Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:26am
Even tho this is a question for Muslims, I must wonder...
 
Perhaps this isn't about God at all?


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Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:41am

That is a good question, sqaruesi.

One has to contemplate that if god, who is presumably all knowing, sent information that he knew would be misinterpreted; he must have done so on purpose.
Why didn't he just send the qur'an to moses or abraham and be done with it?


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:02am
First off, Allah acknowledged that the Jews killed some of His apostles:
 
2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
 
But He also told us the proper way to interpret that:
 
3:169 Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;
 
Whether you believe it was Jesus on the cross or not, in the eyes of Truth, the Jews killed him not nor crucified him.


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:16am
Another thing:  the Bible says that Jesus "showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God". Acts 1:3
 
Yet we have very little of what he said during those forty days... perhaps he expanded upon the whole matter of his being and the doings on the cross.
 
And perhaps what he said was along the lines of what we have recorded in the Coptic Apocalypse of Peter:
 
"He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness.
 
or the Apocalypse of James:
 
The Lord said, "James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm."


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:17am

Wouldn't god know that they were going to slay his apostles?

All of that still doesn't answer the question that was asked. 


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 1:18pm
The fact is Jesus was not crucified and Allah send Quran to tell us the truth and correct the wrong believes , from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified

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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 1:27pm

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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: Giovanni
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

The fact is Jesus was not crucified and Allah send Quran to tell us the truth and correct the wrong believes , from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified


Such is not a fact, it is what you believe.  And the question has not been answered.


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May the Love of God be With you.


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:45pm
All right, then why would God allow the church that bears the name of Christ and tells a flawed story about Jesus' death and resurrection to propagate this error and allow it to grow explosively in the centuries immediately following the events which Jesus' disciples intentionally or unintentionally misrepresented?


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 1:47am
Good questions
 
And my personal understanding of some aspects of the answer includes the following:
 
1- The crucifixtion was a test of faith for some (the true believers), and as mentioned above by Eldon, when they passed the test, within a few days they received reassurance that they were right in their belief in Jesus as a prophet, and that he was safe. Possibly, the relevant authentic scriptures were hidden later on by those who had interest in another version of what happened
 
2- The confusion which the crucifixtion caused was a punishment for others, those who witnessed all the amazing miracles God allowed Jesus, peace be upon him, to perform, and still asked for more miracles, the last being their request for a table with food from Heaven, described in Chapter 5 of The Qur'an. God gave them a clear warning when they asked for this last miracle that those who would disbelieve after witnessing it will be punished a severe punishment which He has not punished any people before. And that eventually happened with the confusion which prevailed among many people at the time
 
3- As for the following generations, there appeared false teachings about the trinity which misled many people over the centuries, though till the year 325 there still remained true believers who believed in pure monotheism, but they were a persecuted minority
 
4- After the First Council of Nicea, the upper hand was to be for the followers of the trinity. All scriptures which did not support the official idealogy of the Church was surpresed, and the remaining few who had the courage to maintain their belief in pure monotheism were further persecuted, and a very small number of people who new the Truth remained alive
 
5- Around 2 centuries later, when the Truth had ceased to exist, God sent His final Divine Revelation, The Qur'an, to inform humanity of what had happened to Jesus, peace be upon him, and to guide mankind to His Straight Path
 
Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Prophet sent by God to guide people to the Truth, which they mostly rejected
 
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was sent to complete the mission of all of God's prophets since Noah, and was allowed to establish a small state in Madinah to deffend the Truth against those who wanted it to be supressed. This time, God's final Guidance was to be protected from change and His Revelation was to remain intact for all generation to learn
 
That is my personal understanding of what happened between the departure of Jesus, and the message of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them both
 


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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Good questions
 
 
2- The confusion which the crucifixtion caused was a punishment for others, those who witnessed all the amazing miracles God allowed Jesus, peace be upon him, to perform, and still asked for more miracles, the last being their request for a table with food from Heaven, described in Chapter 5 of The Qur'an. God gave them a clear warning when they asked for this last miracle that those who would disbelieve after witnessing it will be punished a severe punishment which He has not punished any people before. And that eventually happened with the confusion which prevailed among many people at the time
 
 
 
That is a very good point, one which I had not considered before.
 
About this table, according to Jesus' prayer recorded in the Quran, it was to be a solemn festival for the first and last Christians and a sign of sustenance for them. The occasion was most likely the feast of Passover on which Jesus was betrayed, commonly called The Last Supper.
 
At that supper, Jesus set a great example for all Christians to follow: saying, He that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luke 22:26) After saying that, according to John's account, he humbled himself like a servant and washed the disciples' feet.
 
Christians fell away from that principle through the centuries though, as the church gained political power, influence, and wealth. Church leaders exalted themselves as rulers, took on servants, had other men to bow before them, kiss their rings, etc.
 
Perhaps that is the most specific act of disbelief among Christians --so much in contrast to the meek and lowly in heart Jesus-- that caused Allah to send astounding chastisement upon them.
 


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Good questions.  And my personal understanding of some aspects of the answer includes the following:
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

1- The crucifixtion was a test of faith for some (the true believers), and as mentioned above by Eldon, when they passed the test, within a few days they received reassurance that they were right in their belief in Jesus as a prophet, and that he was safe. Possibly, the relevant authentic scriptures were hidden later on by those who had interest in another version of what happened.


This is a good stab in the dark....however, even Jesus told the Samarian woman that the true worshippers (Jews who were of the Primitive Church- Christ set-up) knew who they worshiped....and they must worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

New Testament | John 4:22 - 24
22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

THE TEST OF FAITH:
Faith is believing in that which is unseen/unknown....which things are TRUE.  If that which is unseen/unknown is not true.....then that person's belief is in vain....for it has to be true in order for it to be considered "true faith."

If these "true believers/worshipers" believed in that which was not true....then they could not be "true believers."

New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:14 - 17
14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

2- The confusion which the crucifixtion caused was a punishment for others, those who witnessed all the amazing miracles God allowed Jesus, peace be upon him, to perform, and still asked for more miracles, the last being their request for a table with food from Heaven, described in Chapter 5 of The Qur'an. God gave them a clear warning when they asked for this last miracle that those who would disbelieve after witnessing it will be punished a severe punishment which He has not punished any people before. And that eventually happened with the confusion which prevailed among many people at the time.


Those who sought to kill Jesus and his apostles brought on their own damnation and brought about the darkness that covered the land.  After these great men were killed, the spirit of the Lord was grieved and withdrew from the earth....therefore came the Dark Ages and Mid-Evil Times....wherein the minds of men became darkened....for the "Light of the World" was taken from it.
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

3- As for the following generations, there appeared false teachings about the trinity which misled many people over the centuries, though till the year 325 there still remained true believers who believed in pure monotheism, but they were a persecuted minority.


Yes...the trinity theory is a false sectarian notion, it was contrived by uninspired minds who could not grasp the Godhead doctrine.  The term trinity as well as monotheism and polytheism are misunderstandings of scripture.  These are the theories of men.......they are not gospel doctrines set forth in the scriptures.
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

4- After the First Council of Nicea, the upper hand was to be for the followers of the trinity. All scriptures which did not support the official idealogy of the Church was surpressed, and the remaining few who had the courage to maintain their belief in pure monotheism were further persecuted, and a very small number of people who new the Truth remained alive.


There again...the term monotheism is a modern belief attempting to understand ancient teachings about the attributes of God.  It and the trinity theory were not coined until hundreds of years after the Spirit of God was taken from the earth.  In other words....there was a Universal Apostasy during the times that uninspired minds tried to grasp the ancient teachings of the Bible.
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

5- Around 2 centuries later, when the Truth had ceased to exist, God sent His final Divine Revelation, The Qur'an, to inform humanity of what had happened to Jesus, peace be upon him, and to guide mankind to His Straight Path.


I do not doubt that the Angel Gabriel came to fulfill Jehovah's promise to Hagar, that he would not utterly forget her and her seed.  However, this promise to her and her seed did not include that the birthright of the House of Israel be taken from them and given to the descendants of Ishmael.  For this promise given to the House of Israel as an eternal inheritance.  It was given to Israel for his faithfulness and placed upon his descendency.  Therefore, that eternal blessing (of priesthood authority) cannot be stripped from him and given to another's descendency.

It is apparent that Muhammad had his own misconceptions about Jesus and the role that he played for humanity.  Therefore, Muhammad interjected these misconceptions using the Angel Gabriel as his validation.

Just a side note....it is not the straight path...as in a straight line....but this path is a nautical term....STRAIT.  Such as when someone says that they are in "dire straits."  It is a narrow path with dangerous curves, juts, and turns.....such as life.  For a person to come too close to the edge can cause them to be crushed against the jagged rocks and fall to their destruction below.

New Testament | Matthew 7:13 - 14
13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Here are other scriptures that expound upon this strait and narrow way...


Old Testament | Job 36:15 - 16

15  He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression.
16  Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness.

Old Testament | Isaiah 49:19 - 20
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20  The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.


Old Testament | Jeremiah 19:8 - 9
And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
9  And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.


Old Testament | Lamentations 1:3

Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.

New Testament | Philippians 1:21 - 23
21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Prophet sent by God to guide people to the Truth, which they mostly rejected
 
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was sent to complete the mission of all of God's prophets since Noah, and was allowed to establish a small state in Madinah to deffend the Truth against those who wanted it to be supressed. This time, God's final Guidance was to be protected from change and His Revelation was to remain intact for all generation to learn
 
That is my personal understanding of what happened between the departure of Jesus, and the message of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them both


More later........


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:29am
Hello Janet
 
Thank you for your post. These are a few answers
 
1- Monotheism, i.e. the belief in the One and Only true Creator and Sustainer of the universe, is not a theory and it's not new
 
It is the same message preached by all of God's prophets, from Adam and Noah to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, peace be upon them all
 
2- Prophet Ishmael is the son of Prophet Abraham, peace be upon them both, and a great grandfather of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
 
"The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother Hagar as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genisis 21:13 and 16:3"
 
http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible.HTM - http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible.HTM  
 
3- Going back to the main topic of the thread, it is a Divine rule that when God shows people a miracle which they asked for and they still deny His prophets, these people are severely punished, more than ordinary people who disbelieve in God
 
This is what happend in the case of many earlier nations who disbelieved their prophets which are mentioned in the Qur'an
 
In the case of Jesus, peace be upon him, God allowed him to perform many miracles, to the point of giving life back to the dead, but still many people refused to believe
 
When they asked Jesus for God to send them down a table from heaven this is what God said:
 
115- Allah said, "Indeed, I will send it down to you but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed I will punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds." (5:115)
 
That punishment for those who disbelieved was confusion, a punishment which was later made worse by man-made changes in the teachings of God which Jesus, peace be upon him, conveyed to people ...
 
 


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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Islamway
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 3:46am
Why can't Christians get the fact that it's their religion that is an off shot of the religion of the prophets NOT Islam .. It's YOUR religion that is different and has different and foreign beliefs never taught by any prophet before.
And since our religion is in complete agreement with the religion of prophets .. we believe that God is one (and by one we mean one) .. and we believe that God is oft forgiving and most merciful .. He forgives all the sins.
 
So according to Islam, whether Jesus was killed or not, it has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins .. Muslim don't object to the idea of Jesus' crucifixion because God would never let such a thing happen to a great prophet of his, actually we believe many prophets were killed by their people .. we object to his crucifixion simply because it didn't happen .. that's all.
Actually, even according to the bible, people didn't link the death of Jesus to sacrifice and atonement of sins until his alleged appearance 3 days after his death .. before it people thought he was just another prophet killed.
The people who deceived Christians are those who made up the false beliefs of their religion .. not God.
 
[5:77] Say: O people of the book exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.


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Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:52pm
 
 
 Gabriel in Daniel 9:26-27 specifically mentions that Christ would be slain and the events leading up to and afterwards.
 

26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

 
  Either Gabriel was incorrect or it was not Gabriel who spoke with Daniel if Muhammud is correct. Personally i'll stick with the Gabriel of old in Daniel.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Damo

Either Gabriel was incorrect or it was not Gabriel who spoke with Daniel
 
OR Gabriel's words were mistranslated in the version you quoted!
 
The KJV says "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."
 
The specific Hebrew word there is karath meaning to cut, by implication to destroy or consume, but specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces). That is Strong's Hebrew Lexicon's definition of the word.
 
"slain" is a mistranslation.


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

Either Gabriel was incorrect or it was not Gabriel who spoke with Daniel
 
OR Gabriel's words were mistranslated in the version you quoted!
 
The KJV says "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."
 
The specific Hebrew word there is karath meaning to cut, by implication to destroy or consume, but specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces). That is Strong's Hebrew Lexicon's definition of the word.
 
"slain" is a mistranslation.
 
 I missed this one...
 
 Here's the Jewish translation
 
http://bible.cc/daniel/9-26.htm - 26  And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. http://bible.cc/daniel/9-27.htm - 27  And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'
 
 
  So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'. Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merly transended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 But you may mention the omition of the word Christ, it would be hard to find any other character in the Bible who met all the criteria of this prophesy other than Jesus himself.

http://jpsbible.com/daniel/9.htm - http://jpsbible.com/daniel/9.htm



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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Damo

So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'.
 
"be no more (upon earth)" surely you don't think the Hebrew translation there is suggesting that the human spirit of Messiah (anointed one) would be discarded or vaporized rather than returning to Yah who gave it?
 
His earthly term of life was ended, he did not die in the traditional sense of the word, with his body and spirit being separated until the day of resurrection.
 
Originally posted by Damo

Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merely transcended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 
Yes, I'm glad you can recognize that distinction, in a very literal sense he was saved from death, despite the fact that he appeared to die just as any other man would die.


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:49pm
I'm sorry if someone already answered this and I missed it somewhere, but this has never made sense to me either; if Jesus was never actually crucified, but only appeared to be, why would Allah allow his disciples, followers of a true prophet, to remain in deception? Every one of them went to their deaths proclaiming and believing in the resurrection, but there can have been no resurrection if he was never killed.


Posted By: jeffrey lee
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

The fact is Jesus was not crucified and Allah send Quran to tell us the truth and correct the wrong believes , from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified
 
 
but the Qu'ran does not say this at all. it does not say that Jesus was protected by Allah and not crucified.


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:43am
Originally posted by jeffrey lee

Originally posted by mai moslemah

from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified
 
but the Qu'ran does not say this at all. it does not say that Jesus was protected by Allah and not crucified
 
 
Jeffrey, it is in the Qu'ran.  It says that Jesus was never crucified, "but it was made to appear so to them".
 
Can someone please tell me the sura where this is found, and what exactly it says? I know it's there. I've seen it.
 
 


Posted By: hannah114
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:54am
surah 4:157-158
 
"That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah' -- But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, But so it was made To appear to them, And those who differ Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge, But only conjecture to follow, For of a surety They killed him not -- Nay, Allah raised him up Unto HImself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise"


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Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Islamway

Why can't Christians get the fact that it's their religion that is an off shot of the religion of the prophets NOT Islam .. It's YOUR religion that is different and has different and foreign beliefs never taught by any prophet before.
Probably for the same reason that you can't wrap your head around the fact that your religion (and, coincidentally, all religions) may not be based on "fact" at all.
That would be because you are blinded, by the way...just in case you misinterpret or misconstrue what it is that i, in "fact", said.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'.
 
"be no more (upon earth)" surely you don't think the Hebrew translation there is suggesting that the human spirit of Messiah (anointed one) would be discarded or vaporized rather than returning to Yah who gave it?
 
His earthly term of life was ended, he did not die in the traditional sense of the word, with his body and spirit being separated until the day of resurrection.
 
[quote=Damo]
Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merely transcended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 
Yes, I'm glad you can recognize that distinction, in a very literal sense he was saved from death, despite the fact that he appeared to die just as any other man would die.
[/QUOTE=eldon]
 
 
But if i'm not mistaken, the islamic belief is that the cross bore not the body of Jesus at all but another took His place ?
 
 PS.. forgive my hashing of the posts.. i haven't got the hang of this quote set up yet.
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:22pm
Right, I believe there is a theory in Islam that it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified, although I do not think the Qu'ran actually says this.
 
And I'm still hoping for an answer to my original question...
 
Originally posted by StoryMing

I'm sorry if someone already answered this and I missed it somewhere, but this has never made sense to me either; if Jesus was never actually crucified, but only appeared to be, why would Allah allow his disciples, followers of a true prophet, to remain in deception? Every one of them went to their deaths proclaiming and believing in the resurrection, but there can have been no resurrection if he was never killed.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'.
 
"be no more (upon earth)" surely you don't think the Hebrew translation there is suggesting that the human spirit of Messiah (anointed one) would be discarded or vaporized rather than returning to Yah who gave it?
 
His earthly term of life was ended, he did not die in the traditional sense of the word, with his body and spirit being separated until the day of resurrection.
 
Originally posted by Damo

Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merely transcended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 
Yes, I'm glad you can recognize that distinction, in a very literal sense he was saved from death, despite the fact that he appeared to die just as any other man would die.
 
 
 Eldon... i merely mean, gave up His mortal life, just as we do in the Christian sense only in that, we do not choose the time of our passing Jesus did, which is what i meant by death did not call on Him. However i do believe he did die and that it happened on the cross as the Gospels make clear.


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 9:17am
Originally posted by StoryMing

Right, I believe there is a theory in Islam that it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified, although I do not think the Qu'ran actually says this.
 
There are several theories among Muslims that I'm aware of:
 
1. one of his disciples willingly took the place of Jesus before crucifixion
2. Judas was made to look like Jesus and was crucified
3. Simon of Cyrene was somehow substituted for Jesus
4. Barabbas (son of the father) was substituted for Jesus
 
The New Testament implies that a more spiritual substitution took place
 
"our old man was crucified with, that the body of sin might be destroyed"
Romans 6:6
 
It is a Scriptural Christian teaching that the old sin nature of  believers died on the cross, which is certainly not was Jesus himself was, so there is the Christian sort of substitution which the Quran hints at.
 
The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter quotes Jesus in affirming a substitution also, though not  along the lines of those that Muslims believe exactly.
 
 
 
Originally posted by StoryMing

I'm sorry if someone already answered this and I missed it somewhere, but this has never made sense to me either; if Jesus was never actually crucified, but only appeared to be, why would Allah allow his disciples, followers of a true prophet, to remain in deception? Every one of them went to their deaths proclaiming and believing in the resurrection, but there can have been no resurrection if he was never killed.

Jesus submitted himself to Allah before the crucifixion event and to all appearances was crucified anyway, thus what appeared to happen was the Will of Allah and was true enough to die for.

It was only later that the disciples realized that Jesus was somehow saved from death as Hebrews 5:7 implies. Likewise the substitutionary ideas that Paul writes about were not revealed until well after Jesus had left the earth. (2Corinthians 5:21, Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:16,  Romans 8:3)
 
Though most Christians cling absolutely to Jesus' actual crucifixion and resurrection, they have enough information in the NT to see what the Quran implies by the brief mention of the crucifixion therein, even though they won't believe any of the Muslim theories listed above.
 
 
 
 


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by eldon

[QUOTE=StoryMing]
It was only later that the disciples realized that Jesus was somehow saved from death as Hebrews 5:7 implies. Likewise the substitutionary ideas that Paul writes about were not revealed until well after Jesus had left the earth. (2Corinthians 5:21, Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:16,  Romans 8:3)
 
Though most Christians cling absolutely to Jesus' actual crucifixion and resurrection, they have enough information in the NT to see what the Quran implies by the brief mention of the crucifixion therein, even though they won't believe any of the Muslim theories listed above.
 
 
 Eldon.. The verses you posted give absolutely no credance to your claim about Jesus saved from a death on the cross Or even implies it. You do. Infact some of them within a few verses after or before clearly show that.
 Are you now going to suggest that the Bible no-where says Jesus died on the cross, and further more never rose from the dead ?


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by eldon

 It is a Scriptural Christian teaching that the old sin nature of  believers died on the cross, which is certainly not was Jesus himself was, so there is the Christian sort of substitution which the Quran hints at.
 
Of course Jesus was not of a sin nature. The Christian teaching of substitution works the other way: that HE substituted for US, that he took on the penalty and punishment that we deserved; hence, that our sin nature died with him, or in him, on the cross-- not "instead of" him.
 
Originally posted by eldon

Though most Christians cling absolutely to Jesus' actual crucifixion and resurrection, they have enough information in the NT to see what the Quran implies by the brief mention of the crucifixion therein, even though they won't believe any of the Muslim theories listed above.
 
First of all, I have to emphatically disagree that "what appeared to happen was the will of Allah and was true enough to die for", if in fact what appeared to happen was not what actually happened.
 
Secondly, I see no point in the history of the church at which the disciples ever stopped talking about the crucifixion and began taking about Jesus being saved from death in the manner the Qu'ran indicates. Each of the verses you list demonstrates this point: In each case the problem seems to be that you are not looking at the context of verses before and/or after the ones you cite. The first one comes the closest:
 
Hebrews 5:7 ...Jesus... offered up prayers and petitions... to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
 
Ah, very good; but what was his petition and his prayer? To be spared from death? No, his prayer (according to the gospels) was that God's will would be done (Mt 26:39, 42; Mk 14:38; Lk 22:42) and God's name glorified (John 12:27). The next verse, Hebrews 5:8, goes on to say that he learned obedience from what he suffered
 
The rest of the passages, in context, likewise speak of our old self being crucified with him (not instead of him), of being buried with him in baptism and being raised with him from the dead. They speak of having been brought near through the blood of Christ, of his having destroyed "the dividing wall of hostility" in his flesh. and of his having been sent to be a sin offering.
 
We can argue the corruption of texts endlessly, we can argue forever whether the Bible or the Qu'ran is right, but the information we are given in the NT does not at any point indicate what the Qu'ran says, that Jesus was kept safe, that the crucifixion was an appearance only, or that our sin nature somehow replaced Jesus on the cross.


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:47am
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13
 
StoryMing, you and Damo are overlooking the essential nature of Jesus:  he was a man made in the likeness of sinful flesh according to Scripture, but he was also the word & spirit of Allah.
 
His own words there in John 3:13 indicate that he was ever present in heaven, not bound to bodily presence on earth.
 
If you'd read Foxes Book of Martyrs, you'd see that several disciples of Jesus also attained such a heavenly presence that even as their bodies were being burned to death, they were singing hymns of praise.
 
Is it really accurate to say that such people were killed?  It's more like they were set free to fully live.
 
Especially in Jesus' case, his apparent death was the effectual means for death to sin being accomplished as prefigured in the Day of Atonement, so that all believing Israelites could go free unto eternal life, as did Jesus from the cross.
 
Considering all that, the Quran's statement that "they killed him not, but so it was made to appear to them" can be seen as accurate.


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by eldon

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13
 
StoryMing, you and Damo are overlooking the essential nature of Jesus:  he was a man made in the likeness of sinful flesh according to Scripture, but he was also the word & spirit of Allah.
 
His own words there in John 3:13 indicate that he was ever present in heaven, not bound to bodily presence on earth.
 
If you'd read Foxes Book of Martyrs, you'd see that several disciples of Jesus also attained such a heavenly presence that even as their bodies were being burned to death, they were singing hymns of praise.
 
Is it really accurate to say that such people were killed?  It's more like they were set free to fully live.
 
Especially in Jesus' case, his apparent death was the effectual means for death to sin being accomplished as prefigured in the Day of Atonement, so that all believing Israelites could go free unto eternal life, as did Jesus from the cross.
 
Considering all that, the Quran's statement that "they killed him not, but so it was made to appear to them" can be seen as accurate.
 
 But martyrdom strictly speaking refers to one who suffers for a cause. The saints who suffered martyrdom suffered .. even while singing praises to God. To suggest otherwise is to make martyrdom mean only something of a supernatural encounter rather than an example of absolute devotion prior to their death.
 
 John 3:13 only points to Jesus as ever present in heaven throughout time only having desended once to take the likeness of Man, then assending back to where He had been. Especially as no mortal man had died and gone to heaven since  Adam until Christ's Crucifixion, which begs the question why was only Jesus ever present in heaven.
 
 Apocalypse 1:18: And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 But martyrdom strictly speaking refers to one who suffers for a cause. The saints who suffered martyrdom suffered .. even while singing praises to God. To suggest otherwise is to make martyrdom mean only something of a supernatural encounter rather than an example of absolute devotion prior to their death.
 
Life itself (if we live it right) is "only something of a supernatural encounter" despite the sufferings we go through here. So much more is martyrdom, despite whatever degree of suffering is experienced.
 
When I read of martyrs singing while dying in the flames, I perceive the reality of supernatural transcendance that dwarfs and belittles the apparence of death.
 
 John 3:13 only points to Jesus as ever present in heaven throughout time only having desended once to take the likeness of Man, then assending back to where He had been. Especially as no mortal man had died and gone to heaven since  Adam until Christ's Crucifixion, which begs the question why was only Jesus ever present in heaven.
 
On the contrary, I see John 3:13 as indicative of Jesus being present in spirit IN heaven even as he was speaking here upon earth. He also prayed that his followers would experience that same reality while here upon earth:
 
Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am... John 17:24
 
and the apostle Paul recognized that Jesus prayer had been answered for the believers:
 
But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-6
 
 
 
 Apocalypse 1:18: And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
 
 
Yes, I believe that Jesus "tasted death for every man" inasmuch as he was able, yet seeing that he was ever present alive in heaven makes a plain difference between his apparent death and the death of any other man whose spirit and body remain separated until the Day of Resurrection.


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo808

 
 But martyrdom strictly speaking refers to one who suffers for a cause. The saints who suffered martyrdom suffered .. even while singing praises to God. To suggest otherwise is to make martyrdom mean only something of a supernatural encounter rather than an example of absolute devotion prior to their death.
 
Life itself (if we live it right) is "only something of a supernatural encounter" despite the sufferings we go through here. So much more is martyrdom, despite whatever degree of suffering is experienced.
 
When I read of martyrs singing while dying in the flames, I perceive the reality of supernatural transcendance that dwarfs and belittles the apparence of death.
 
 John 3:13 only points to Jesus as ever present in heaven throughout time only having desended once to take the likeness of Man, then assending back to where He had been. Especially as no mortal man had died and gone to heaven since  Adam until Christ's Crucifixion, which begs the question why was only Jesus ever present in heaven.
 
On the contrary, I see John 3:13 as indicative of Jesus being present in spirit IN heaven even as he was speaking here upon earth. He also prayed that his followers would experience that same reality while here upon earth:
 
Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am... John 17:24
 
and the apostle Paul recognized that Jesus prayer had been answered for the believers:
 
But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-6
 
 
 
 Apocalypse 1:18: And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
 
 
Yes, I believe that Jesus "tasted death for every man" inasmuch as he was able, yet seeing that he was ever present alive in heaven makes a plain difference between his apparent death and the death of any other man whose spirit and body remain separated until the Day of Resurrection.
 
 
Eldon.. much of what your projecting here seems to be based on your own opinion without much in the way of support.
 
 Further if he was in heaven while here on earth in the flesh why does John 17.13 say: "But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely."
 
Why say this if he was already present in Heaven ?
You say Jesus "tasted death inasmuch as he was able". .. How was he able ? He either died or did not.. how can one experience death to an extent if thats what you implying.
 
 Romans 5- 8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 
 Or 1 Peter 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.



-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 9:44am
Eldon.. much of what your projecting here seems to be based on your own opinion without much in the way of support.
 
 
On the contrary, Damo, much of what I'm saying goes back to the Catholic catechism I learned as a child.
 
Jesus' words in John 3:13 are used in the catechism to confer "omnipresence" upon Jesus while he was here upon earth. Though I no longer accept the idea of Jesus being omnipresent, I do recognize that he had some sort of presence in heaven even while he was here on earth.
 
 Further if he was in heaven while here on earth in the flesh why does John 17.13 say: "But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely."
 
Why say this if he was already present in Heaven ?

Because his body was still upon earth at that point in time, and he realized that he would soon be taken bodily into heaven.

 


You say Jesus "tasted death inasmuch as he was able". .. How was he able ? He either died or did not.. how can one experience death to an extent if thats what you implying.
 
The same way that one can experience life in the body to the extent that Jesus did, yet maintained some sort of heavenly presence at the same time.
 
 Romans 5- 8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 
 Or 1 Peter 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Those verses don't say that Jesus' presence in heaven was ever broken.
 
Even if you believe the "my God, my God, Why have you forsaken me"  cry from the cross to be Jesus' actual lament instead of him quoting Psalm 22 in its fulfillment, nevertheless, at the end, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, showing he maintained that heavenly connection.


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:08pm
Eldon.. much of what your projecting here seems to be based on your own opinion without much in the way of support.
 
 
On the contrary, Damo, much of what I'm saying goes back to the Catholic catechism I learned as a child.
 
Jesus' words in John 3:13 are used in the catechism to confer "omnipresence" upon Jesus while he was here upon earth. Though I no longer accept the idea of Jesus being omnipresent, I do recognize that he had some sort of presence in heaven even while he was here on earth.
 
 Some sort of presence? He's either a normal man as the Quran would have him or not.
 
 Further if he was in heaven while here on earth in the flesh why does John 17.13 say: "But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely."
 
Why say this if he was already present in Heaven ?

Because his body was still upon earth at that point in time, and he realized that he would soon be taken bodily into heaven.

 So your advocating the idea of omnipresence, while at the same time don't condone the idea. I mean your either omnipresent or not... and only that is attributable to God.
   

You say Jesus "tasted death inasmuch as he was able". .. How was he able ? He either died or did not.. how can one experience death to an extent if thats what you implying.
 
The same way that one can experience life in the body to the extent that Jesus did, yet maintained some sort of heavenly presence at the same time.
 
Again omnipresence. Are thre any examples of this in the Quran ?
 
 Romans 5- 8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 
 Or 1 Peter 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Those verses don't say that Jesus' presence in heaven was ever broken.
 
 
 
Even if you believe the "my God, my God, Why have you forsaken me"  cry from the cross to be Jesus' actual lament instead of him quoting Psalm 22 in its fulfillment, nevertheless, at the end, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, showing he maintained that heavenly connection.
 
 Is Jesus dual presense supported by any Islamic srcipture ?
 
 
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:29am
Some sort of presence? He's either a normal man as the Quran would have him or not.
 
The Quran doesn't say he was just a normal man, but the word and spirit of Allah, the Messiah, and a Messenger of Allah.
 
Such a person as he having greater awareness of Allah's Presence and being somehow present in heaven while here upon earth is no great stretch of faith. 
 
 So your advocating the idea of omnipresence, while at the same time don't condone the idea. I mean your either omnipresent or not... and only that is attributable to God.
 
I agree that omnipresence is attributable only to Allah. What Jesus was talking about would better be described as bi-location.
 
 
Is Jesus dual presense supported by any Islamic scripture ?
 
Well, there's this:
 

2:252 THESE are God's messages: We convey them unto thee, [O Prophet,] setting forth the truth-for, verily, thou art among those who have been entrusted with a message.

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: among them were such as were spoken to by Allah [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher. And We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth, and strengthened him with holy inspiration. . .

 
 
 
I think bi-location would certainly qualify as part of "all evidence of the Truth".


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 12:57pm
Is Jesus dual presense supported by any Islamic scripture ?
 
Well, there's this:
 

2:252 THESE are God's messages: We convey them unto thee, [O Prophet,] setting forth the truth-for, verily, thou art among those who have been entrusted with a message.

 Among those meaning those listed who came before him who had been entrusted.. Not in a litteral sense among them in bi-location, for the Christian teaching is that there was no-one since the time of Adam who had yet entered heaven up until the Crucifixion.

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: among them were such as were spoken to by Allah [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher. And We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth, and strengthened him with holy inspiration. . .

 
 
I think bi-location would certainly qualify as part of "all evidence of the Truth".
 
"All evidence of truth" from the Islamic perspective doesn't specify in any way a hint of bi-location... All evidence of truth meant simply that which was revealed to him by Allah regarding the oral gospel.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 7:45am
I didn't say it specified bi-location. You asked if there was any Islamic scripture which supported the idea of Jesus being present in heaven.
 
"All evidence of the truth" WAS given to Muhammad, also, via his miraculous presence in a visit to heaven, though the record of that event does not specify bi-location either.
 
It is Christian scripture that verifies Jesus having some sort of presence in heaven-- scripture quoting Jesus' own words at that! 
 
You should have no problem with it, and in keeping with my original point in bringing that passage up (John 3:13), realize that it is not accurate to say that someone was killed, when he was actually present somewhere else than the scene of the crime!


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:01am
StoryMing, you may not even be reading this thread any longer, but I want to address your point about 2Corinthians 5:21 being interpreted as  Jesus "having been sent to be a sin offering".
 
I realize that is the most popular Christian interpretation of that text and that is the interpretation that I also temporarily accepted while I was a Christian. It just didn't make any sense whatsoever to believe that "Jesus was made to be sin", as the text very specificly states.
 
Yet Galatians 3:13 confirms that same idea by saying that "Messiah became a curse for us". Jesus, in his own nature, was the direct opposite of sin and a curse, so those NT passages affirm a substitution that took place on the cross, howbeit not the same sort of substitution that most Muslims believe. 


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 10:54am
Hi eldon, yes I'm still here.
Yes, if you look earlier in my post,  I already said I agree that a substitution of a sort took place.
 
Originally posted by storyming

] Of course Jesus was not of a sin nature. The Christian teaching of substitution works the other way: that HE substituted for US, that he took on the penalty and punishment that we deserved; hence, that our sin nature died with him, or in him, on the cross-- not "instead of" him.
 
The Christian doctrine of substitutiary atonement teaches that Jesus substituted for us- that HE took OUR place, not the other way around.
 


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by eldon

I didn't say it specified bi-location. You asked if there was any Islamic scripture which supported the idea of Jesus being present in heaven.
 
"All evidence of the truth" WAS given to Muhammad, also, via his miraculous presence in a visit to heaven, though the record of that event does not specify bi-location either.
 
It is Christian scripture that verifies Jesus having some sort of presence in heaven-- scripture quoting Jesus' own words at that! 
 
You should have no problem with it, and in keeping with my original point in bringing that passage up (John 3:13), realize that it is not accurate to say that someone was killed, when he was actually present somewhere else than the scene of the crime!
 
  Even if you suggest he was present in heaven at the time of the Crucifixion, he did suffer on the cross, with his body present in this world. Suffering to the point of death to which He gave up His Spirit.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 9:21am
Christian substitutionary atonement also teaches that we-- our old man-- the body of sin-- carnal nature-- enmity to the law-- DIED on the cross.
 
Such an atonement is pictured in Leviticus 16 concerning the yearly Day of Atonement ritual in which 2 goats were selected, one to be sacrificed to atone for the holy place, tabernacle, and altar, and the other to make atonement by being set free to bear away the sins of Israel into a separate place.
 
I believe Jesus -- and no one else-- fulfilled that Day of Atonement ritual for Israel. While he was certainly willing to die so that Israel could be set free, and was certainly "evidently set forth as crucified", in effect, all who love him identify their sin as what was slain and receive the freedom of life everlasting that was IN him, which could not be slain.
 
That whole picture is briefly described in the Quran as: "they killed him not nor crucified him but it was made to appear so to them" in order to deny some Jews' boast that they had killed Jesus, without going into the details of what effectually took place there. It was a Victory for Jesus and Allah, not for the Jews and Satan who wanted to kill him.
 
Though it is not necessary for Muslims to believe all of those details, Christians should be able to "read between the lines" enough to see the whole truth of the matter from both the Biblical and Quranic perspective.


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
  Even if you suggest he was present in heaven at the time of the Crucifixion, he did suffer on the cross, with his body present in this world. Suffering to the point of death to which He gave up His Spirit.
 
Apparently so!
 
I wasn't there to see it and I don't know exactly what all happened there; according to the Gospels, it is just as you say.
 
Yet I also believe the Quran to be correct in bluntly denying the Jews' boast that they had killed Messiah.


-------------
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam



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