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Incest

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Discription: The place to discuss various current events around the globe
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22376
Printed Date: 22 April 2019 at 12:47am
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Topic: Incest
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Incest
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:23pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7334649.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7334649.stm

I can't believe nothing has been done about this. These people need to be separated and given serious help, not just 'tolerated' like this. The poor kid, even if she does turn out to be healthy how is she going to live any sort of normal life with everyone knowing that her parents are father and daughter? That's just horrible, did they even consider the trauma they'd be inflicting on their children when they try to convince us that they're 'consenting adults' (in other words, leave us alone we're not hurting anyone)? Nevermind the previous kid who died...

We have a serious problem in liberal democratic societies (or whatever you want to call it) where we can imagine anything done by 'good' people as immoral. Even in what surely should be a black-and-white case as this, when they fall back on the 'we're just normal people who've fallen in love like everybody else' we're expected to think think that what they're doing is normal, they just happen to be biologically related. It's like people have this mental image of evil things being done only by easily identifiable 'evil people', and so when we see someone engaging in an 'evil' act who seems to be a good person then we think the act can't really be evil, can it?

Of course it can. Even otherwise good people can do evil, disgusting things, especially when nobody tries to stop them.



Replies:
Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:45pm
There's nothing wrong with incest so long as it's kept within the family.

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Posted By: jana.z
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 10:27pm
there are some really warped ppl in this world!!!
 
this statement made my stomach roll
 
"I was looking at him, sort of going, oh, he's not too bad. Like you might look at a man across the bar at a nightclub," she said."
 
thats really disgusting.


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Posted By: Nura
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:15pm
I have recently heard about two german people, brother and sister, who gave birth to 4 children -two are healthy and two have some handicaps.
The man will be jailed for 4 years, since incest is prohibited in Germany.
It sparkled a debate, since in other countries (for example Britain) incest is not prohibited.
 
Now, of course I condem incest from a moral point of view. BUT if we live in society which states that sexuality is a private thing, and adultery or homosexuality are not prohibited, so why prohibitting incest? Children from incest are likely to have so health problems, but so are children whose mother are over 40 (even if in aminor rate). And, on the other side, from adultery come children who sometimes don't know who is their biological  father, and it is possible that they grow on and marry their own sister or brother without knowing it. So, if adultery can lead to incestuos relationships, why it is not a crime and incest is?
 
So I don't find it ok, but I find it more coherent with general western principles not to consider incest a crime.


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Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:58pm
This is disgusting. That's all I can say.

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Posted By: BookWorm
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 2:15pm
It kind of makes you wonder what kind of relationship they had growing up. As her father he is her first male role model and first authority figure. Did this “naturally” happen or did he do something to foster this feeling back when she was developing physically, mentality and emotionally for her, at this date, to say that she freely chooses to be with him in a sexual manner?


Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by BookWorm

It kind of makes you wonder what kind of relationship they had growing up. As her father he is her first male role model and first authority figure. Did this “naturally” happen or did he do something to foster this feeling back when she was developing physically, mentality and emotionally for her, at this date, to say that she freely chooses to be with him in a sexual manner?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the article sort of spells out that he was absent for nearly 30 years of her life - in which case there was nothing more than a biological father-daughter relationship.


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Posted By: BookWorm
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 2:49pm
oops then I guess I should have read the article then


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:25pm
Nura, your post begs the question of where morality comes from in the first place.

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Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 4:05pm
Where inshaAllah, we(the muslims)'ll eventually realize that the ultimate reason incest is immoral is because God ruled it as such.
 
To us it might be disgusting as well, but that's not a good enough reason by itself, nor is one person's taste fit to be applied to all others. I mean, some people find cousin marriages disturbing but others are keen for it and have practiced it for centuries. The same applies to interracial marriages, polar age marriages etc.


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Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 5:08pm
I don't even know what to say.  Words fail me.

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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: ScoobyGurl
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 5:22pm
We've been talking about this in my Black Family course-exogamy I mean. Basically, exogamy is marrige or relationships outside specific groups. It's opposite, endogamy is marriage within specific groups. So not marrying your parent or child is one example of exogamy. In the US, not marrying your cousin is another. Not marrying children in Western societies is another. An example of endogamy is only allowing heterosexuals to marry.
 
I think Nura, Amy, and Marwan have a point. How exactly do we determine which groups can marry and which can't? As Muslims, we have the Qur'an of course. But in the West, this issue is becoming much more problematic. I mean what justification do secular socities have for banning incest or cousin marriage (do European countries or Canada ban cousin marriage)? I'm not asking to be funny or sarcastic.


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Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 5:30pm
I do not believe that you need to be religious to understand that it's messed up to do anything like this guy did with his daughter and vice-versa.
Maybe i was lucky and had good parents (one of which was very religious, christian, and the other was an atheist); but it goes back to what i've said on several occasions...if you need a book to tell you what is right or wrong, you will always be on the cusp of doing both.
Hopefully, if one is that type of person, they read the right book.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: M.A.R.W.A.N
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 5:54pm
Scurggnut, we understand because we happen to share the same conscious as you regarding this issue.
 
However, for muslims, to prove it is haram, our understanding isn't enough, we need evidence from Qur'an/Sunnah. You'll notice muslims scholars don't normally say "Such and such act is haram because it's messed up and disgusting".....instead, they usually say "Qala Allah and Qalah Rasul  "Said Allah .... and said the Prophet pbuh....." Added to that are there own logical deductions and reasoning but never are they to assume their intellect is solely responsible for determining the righteousness or evil of any given act.
 
Even in this there is methodology in morality, it's not based on individual thought patterns (like that, that was a reference to Chuck Schuldiner RIP, of the famed metal band Death.....miss him) for then everyone would be on a different standard.  Islam is very much a universal religion when it comes to important things like physical relationships.


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Posted By: IssaRaheem
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 6:33pm
Salaam,
 
I don't think incest is just a Liberal western problem... There isn't too many people I know who would accept this relationship here in America.. Purely disgusting is the only words..


Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 7:55pm

I don't know anyone here in America who would accept this relationship.  I mean, my God...look at them - they're both fat!



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Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:34pm
 
Yuck.  I guess this woman never knew the man as her father, but still....
 
 
Along similar lines:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/08/AR2008040801742.html?hpid=moreheadlines - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/08/AR2008040801742.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Texas authorities have taken more than 400 children into custody from the ranch, authorities said Monday. The children were joined by 133 women, in homemade ankle-length dresses, who departed voluntarily.

A central goal of the court-ordered sweep was finding and identifying the 16-year-old girl who telephoned authorities late last month. Acting on the complaint, District Judge Barbara Walther ordered all children removed.

We have a serious problem in liberal democratic societies (or whatever you want to call it) where we can imagine anything done by 'good' people as immoral.

I agree with the thought, but I'm uncertain if this is an example of that. (I think you meant "where we cannot imagine.")
 
BUT if we live in society which states that sexuality is a private thing, and adultery or homosexuality are not prohibited, so why prohibitting incest? 
 
Not marrying children in Western societies is another (example of endogamy). An example of endogamy is only allowing heterosexuals to marry.
 
How exactly do we determine which groups can marry and which can't? As Muslims, we have the Qur'an of course. But in the West, this issue is becoming much more problematic. I mean what justification do secular socities have for banning incest or cousin marriage (do European countries or Canada ban cousin marriage)?

These are reasonable questions and comments.  But I think the cousin and incest questions have been answered -- those relationships produce offspring that can be harmed.
Every society "draws a line" somewhere, and where that line is or should be can certainly be argued.  Sexual relations between consenting adults is considered private in the west.  Homosexuality is tolerated.  I don't admire much about the lifestyle, but I try to deal with people as indivduals.  I certainly don't think they should be executed or criminially punished.
 
Infidelity is another private matter between two adults.  There are civil reprecussions for this behavior.

 



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Posted By: Misbah
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:50pm

Salaam,

On the topic, i read this last Monday in my magazine, didn't think much of it apart from 'Gosh that's really, really strange, i couldn't do that' and that's all i thought.

You know you get all sorts and all kinds in this world from anyone to everyone.

It's disturbing but we don't and (we can speculate and assume) but will never know why things like this happen.

And BTW, marrying ones cousins is totally and MOST defiantly NOT like marrying ones father, so please, cut out the *ahem* and stop picking silly little squabbles over 'well you guys do it don't you',? ....  listen, look marrying cousin is not like sleeping with your own father and mothering your fathers child! end of! yeah? can we all agree with that?

Now, please grow up!







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"Don’t be so humble - you ain't that great."


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:52pm
Salam

It happens because society has been getting more and more liberal when it comes to sexual morals.


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Posted By: Misbah
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:57pm

Salaam,

Yeah true, Society wants us to be normal and act human, society wants us to accept abnormal, society wants us to be shocked at 'terror' society also wants us to accept 'self-defence'..

Where does it end? it don't, unless one starts at least think and do for themselves and not others!

Know whats right, know whats wrong, and stand by it with your life.

Anyway, sorry I'm just..






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"Don’t be so humble - you ain't that great."


Posted By: MedGirl
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Misbah

Salaam,

Yeah true, Society wants us to be normal and act human, society wants us to accept abnormal, society wants us to be shocked at 'terror' society also wants us to accept 'self-defence'..

Where does it end? it don't, unless one starts at least think and do for themselves and not others!

Know whats right, know whats wrong, and stand by it with your life.

Anyway, sorry I'm just..






lol I know. Good points. I noticed rules are made to cater to their own desires, like 'drink responsibly'.


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Posted By: ScoobyGurl
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by IssaRaheem

Salaam,
 
I don't think incest is just a Liberal western problem... There isn't too many people I know who would accept this relationship here in America.. Purely disgusting is the only words..


No, I'm not saying this only happens in the West. The issue is how secular societies determine which relationships to condone and which not to. Ancient Egyptians engaged in incest. It's disgusting to me too. But is something being disgusting to an individual enough. I mean cousin marriage is "disgusting" to a lot of people in the US but people in African and Asian societies have no issue with it. It's halal.




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