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Conversion from Christianity to Islam: wh

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Topic: Conversion from Christianity to Islam: wh
Posted By: hamayoun
Subject: Conversion from Christianity to Islam: wh
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:51pm
Salam

Bayleaf claims:

95% of the people who convert (period) from one religion to another begin their conversion on a spiritual and emotional level.  The quality of the religious experience is initially valued more than the intellectual facticity of the religion itself.  "What I know" about x fares very little in comparison "when I feel" a certain way due to y.  If y causes me to have faith in God, the supernatural, and the beyond, while x offers me very little in the way of spiritual exultation, then it is pure idiocy to remain subjugated to that which "feels" untruthful.

How true is this?  To answer this question, I am going to post a few replies from another forum I frequent where the question was asked of ex-Christians:

what does being muslim offer that christianity doesn't?

Look at the answers for yourselves, and ask if they imply spirtuality/emotion as opposed to what bayleaf calls "intellectual facticity".


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What Islam offers:

Oneness of God (swt)
Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet
Correction and clarity of God’s word
Higher level of spirituality and closeness to God (swt)
Modesty of dress
More focus on modesty of action
More focus on closeness to God (swt)
Less concern for the “things” of this world


There are actually many more things. Some of these things I guess could be found in Christianity. However, as a revert, I do not think Christianity has the level of understanding and commitment that you find in Islam. To fully understand the difference, you would have to go through it yourself. In Islam, I have found a higher level of spirituality that I do not think I could ever have achieved in Christianity.

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Reason and logic.
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In trying to do christianity better I became muslim. Islam cleared up the confusion in christianity and is complete. There was too many holes in christianity and too many questions...Islam answered them all...Islam offers completeness

Christianity, true and untainted is Islam
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Yes I once heard a teacher say the best christians are the Muslims. Islam offers the truth without confusion or doubt and to me that is the first and foremost thing that brings most of us to Islam is finding that clarity at last.
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closeness of the believers without even knowing eachother (example we give eachother salams in the street when we see our brother or sister)

Our Quran has never been manipulated which is not the case for the bible

What other faith prays in congregation the way we do?

There are rules for keeping your chasity and saving yourself for marriage (whereas anything goes in the christian faith)

We have a holy occassion once a year when MILLIONS of Muslims come together to worship Allah together in the same place.

We Muslims are submitters to Allah just as were all the prophets of bible.

The "zakat" we pay is used to benefit the whole Ummah- charity used in christianity usually ends up in the pastors pocket for new houses or bigger cars.

Islam in general offers peace of mind and heart. There's just so much more the list goes on and on...
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When I was a Christian, for many years I went to Sunday School, even Bible Study after school on Tuesdays at my neighbor's house, and Vacation Bible School in the summer at the church around the corner. All I remember about Sunday school in Darby at the Presbyterian Church (less than 5 years old) was Jesus and Mary and Joseph, and one time when we were walking there some bird poop landed on my head. The only thing I remember from Bible Study is that we only liked to go because Mrs Herd always gave us pretzels and juice. And from vacation bible school, I only remember doing arts and crafts and learning the lord's prayer.

So anyway, I say all of this to say that I didn't know much about my religion growing up as a Christian. My mom was an ex-catholic that converted to Lutheranism to marry my dad, who is as godless as they come as far as I could tell.... When I was about 16, maybe 17 I saw this movie called the Prince of Egypt, when the movie came on, there were words on the screen talking about the Hebrews and my mom said, this is a true story, the story of Moses, it's in the Bible.

And when I watched the movie, I learned something that I had never known, and was embarassed that I didn't know that. So basically, after that I started reading the Bible because I wanted to know my religion, wanted to be more spiritual..... and when I read the Bible things were not adding up to me, they weren't making sense, they were contradictory. Namely, the whole Jesus being God's son, Jesus being God thing, as well as why do we pray to Jesus, and where did this "holy spirit" come from? Reading the Bible did not clear these things up for me. Islam did.

None of that stuff in the Bible, the Christian views of Jesus made sense to me, but in the Quran I saw logic. It made sense to me. It didn't seem like lies, and there were logical explanations... so that's what I mean by reason and logic. Especially where Isa (pbuh) is concerned, who he was, what happened to him, etc.

There are several other things that Islam offers besides the truth, but I only mention this as it was the Bible and these things that led me to Islam.
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The five pillars are not present in Christianity, not in the same form.

Shahadah--For Muslims, faith is community, it's not just a private thing (although part of it is private.) The testimony of faith is done in front of witnesses so the community can acknowledge a person as a Muslim, so the community knows them as one. The creed is that there is nothing else worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad was his Messenger--this affirms faith in all prophets prior to Him, and that the Qur'an is the word of God. There's nothing unclear about it. Being a Muslim implies belief in those things.

Salaat--The idea of ritual worship, particularly prayer, is not in Christianity. The point of having a ritual is not so much to force it, but to help the person remember God throughout the day, like a kind of break from the world to concentrate on God. Prayer is also personal, but this particular form of worship joins the entire community together since it's encouraged to pray with other Muslims, and it also ties the community because it's also encouraged to pray it at the mosque. And this is every day, so the reminder is constant. This prayer is a form of worship, and as such there is no equivalent in Christianity.

Zakat--Charity is part of every religion but Islam even mandates where the charity goes, to ensure it pays for the poor. It doesn't go into the pockets of clergymen, for example.

Ramadan--a whole month of fasting during the day is something special in Islam. the concept of fasting is not unique to Islam but in this form, from dawn to sunset, for a month out of the year, is the difference. 30 days is a real commitment, and is also very rewarding.

Hajj--the mandatory pilgrimage (for anyone who can afford it) is also special, because this keeps Muslims all over the world bound to one single thing, and they gather in Mecca, Muslims of every size and color, for the sole purpose of worshiping God. That is very special.

So all in all, these pillars I think are special in Islam. Not because the concepts are new, but the way they are practiced, and Muslims all over the world do them all exactly the same way! That's the miracle of it.

Also, I think the prayer that Muslims have is something very special... here it is:

In the name of Allah, the Merciful the Compassionate
All praise is for Allah, the Lord of the Worlds
The Merciful, the Compassionate
Master of the Day of Judgment
You do we worship and your help we seek
Show us the straight path
The path of those on whom you have bestowed your grace,
not whose portion is wrath, nor those who went astray.

The constant request for guidance shows that Muslims don't assume they have all the answers and are invariably correct all the time in their understanding. They ask God for guidance continuously, in all matters.

This form of worship, I think, does not exist in equivalent form in Islam, and it's what ties Muslims together around the world.
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Islam has offered a complete way of life, which guides us through everything from our purpose here in life to the way we dress and interact with others. Islam is not a faith that only emerges once a week, or on holidays, but from the time one wakes up for their first prayer (Fajr) and all throughout the day. We are in constant reminder of Allah (swt) and what our duty is towards Him (swt). In Islam our faith is always there and our minds are always on Allah (swt) which helps keeps us from straying into wrong behavior, from focusing on the material world, and we never forget there are consequences for our actions.

Islam offers a sense of peace because we are never alone and we know Allah (swt) is always there watching over us, and even when we slip up He (swt) is most forgiving. When one embraces Islam they also gain a huge family of brothers and sisters who are also on the same journey,and its our obligation to help one another along the way.

Islam is beautiful in its simplicity, that there is one God (swt) and Muhammed (pbuh) is his messenger, the beautiful Qur'an (unaltered since it was first revealed) guides us and answers our questions.



I just never had this peace with Christianity, and could not take the religion seriously. It confused me and I could not accept that God (swt) had a son. Now I know Jesus (pbuh) was a great prophet, and that there is only one God (swt) pure and simple
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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/



Replies:
Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:53pm
Salam

More replies.

Islam cleared up confusions at a time in my life when I was completely confused about religion. I could not accept what I was being taught in church, not the Pentacostal ones my mom was attending, not the Baptist ones I had seen as a child. I would go to bookstores and libraries and read about other religions, but my heart was with Islam. I was fortunate enough to work with a knowledgable, down to earth Muslim man who would debate with my mom often, and everything he said would just confirm what my heart was telling me.

Can't say exactly what it is.... the whole 'three gods in one' put me off to Christianity. Islam does not offer that confusion. I could not comprehend the idea that a man, flesh and blood just like me, died for my sins, and the sins of everyone in history, the present, the future... Just seemed so unreal to me. But, Islam cleared this up for me.

There is also the way of life. There is not the concept that you can go get drunk and sleep around, then go to get forgiveness or go to confession once a week. Islam keeps your focus on good, on God, and doing the right thing on a daily basis. This helped a lot, after watching a drunk step father going to pray for forgiveness every Sunday.

The treatment of women, esp mothers, helped me a lot. If it weren't for Islam, I would not have given a second thought to my mom. I felt she had failed me in my life, and I didn't want much, if anything to do with her. But Islam told me different. And after learning what Islam teaches about mothers, my heart opened up to my own. We became close, alhamdulillah. I hate to think what may have happened to her when she got sick, had I not been around.

There is just all this that I found in Islam, and much more, that I never seen in Christianity.
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what islam gives me that christianity did not..............1). direction. islam is very very definite about nearly everything you need to know to live a proper life while on earth. when i was a christian, all i knew were the 10 commandments and just tried to be like jesus, pbuh. otherwise it was just, "be a good girl and you will go to heaven." 2). a better understanding of the oneness of God that i never really understood before. i didnt even know that i needed to understand it until i studied islam. 3). a fantastic closeness with the muslim community. oh yes, as a christian, we were always hugging and kissing at church but as soon as the other turned his/her back we were biting it!!! i dont dare do that anymore. and ppl accept you as you are. i dont have to worry about what clothes im wearing to the masjid. and i know if i ever needed anything at all, as a muslim i could turn to another muslim and receive what i needed no matter what it is. 4). self respect. not saying that i didnt as a christian, but i really know the meaning now. whereas i would even go to church sometimes with a bit of cleavage showing, i wouldnt dare even go to the mall or grocery store with anything showing!!! and i certainly dont require the attention of others (men)!!! 5). acceptance of ppl with different cultures. i have always been very accepting of ppls differences but now i am surrounded by muslims from all parts of the world and literally live in the middle of a hodgepodge of cultures and nationalities!! its great. as a christian, the ppl are the same. we're like homogenized milk. we all fit the cookie cutter profile at church. we never dared to be different!!! 6). the Qu'ran - need i say more?
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Islam offers so many things that Christianity does not. Let's see if I can list them all. I doubt it, but I shall try.

1. Complete and total monotheism. There is no Trinity and no worshiping of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as gods. The only god is Allah!

2. Guidance from all of Allah's prophets. Christianity offers the guidance of all prophets except Muhammad. Christians do not believe in his teachings, though there is more proof of his existence than even that of Jesus.

3. The Holy Quran. The Bible was written from many men, even though it claims to be the word of God. But over the years, Christian churches have been at odds about what books will be part of the Bible, etc. Whole books have been left out. But that's not the case with the Quran. It stands just as it did when it was revealed to Muhammad, mashAllah!

4. Modesty among the sexes. Both men and women are required to be modest, both in appearance and in their hearts. Christianity puts the blame on women for everything. That goes all the way back to Eve, blaming her for the beginning of sin in the world. But in Islam, women and men are truly equals and must guard their own modesty and cannot be blamed for the faults of others.

5. Direct communication with Allah. In Christianity, people often prayed through saints or Jesus to get to God. That's not the case here. Muslims pray directly to Allah without having an intermediary.

6. A true brotherhood/sisterhood among all Muslims. Once you become a Muslim, you are part of a very large family of people from across the world who are united in the belief of Islam. Muslims come from all countries and are comprised of men and women from all races and nationalities. A Muslim is a Muslim, no matter what color or gender you are. And we all respect and embrace that as part of our ever growing community of believers, inshAllah!
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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 6:51pm
What was the point of this post hamayoun?

No one denies that islam offers different things than christianity and judaism.

This comparison is invalid because christianity offers things that islam does not, things that a christian values that muslims do not.

I strived to be muslim, but it does not offer the Truth to me, anymore so than christianity or judaism or any other faith.

I was asked to enumerate my problems with islam in another thread, and I have done so.

In the end my conclusion is that islam is the made up faith of a well intentioned man called mohammed.





Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 6:54pm
The point of the thread is to show, contrary to bayleaf's claim, that when people leave Christianity for Islam, the #1 reason is because the concept of God in Islam is much more logical and far less confusing than that in Christianity.

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

The point of the thread is to show, contrary to bayleaf's claim, that when people leave Christianity for Islam, the #1 reason is because the concept of God in Islam is much more logical and far less confusing than that in Christianity.


I think muslims like to believe this.

However the "concept" of G_D is in and of itself an illogical concept.

It is based on a belief - a belief and a desire to have control over the world we live in.

We believe in G_D because we cannot explain our world completely.

As our understanding of the world increases, we will have more control over it, as our control over our environment increases we will have less need for our belief in G_D.

As I explained to you, wealthy educated muslims from your own homeland are, for the most part, only nominally muslim.
I posit the reason for this is because they were in more control of their environment than their compatriots.

As to whether christianity or islam is more logical I would argue that since the concept is illogical to start with both definitions of G_D are illogical.

It hardly matters if our intellect can grasp one notion more clearly than then other.

In fact I would have to say that neither notion is logical - the simplest example of this is

How can Allah be contained by his own construct - Jannah.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:07pm
Alhamdulilah!  Thank you for posting these.

Some of these stories sound so much like what I was going through.   Growing up Religion played a big part in my life... I think it was what kept me behaving for so long.  I went to Church most every sunday, was an 'alter girl' (not enough boys, Episcopal Church).  I went to confirmation class, learned things about the bible and went on spiritual retreats as a teenager.

I prayed every night... had a fear of God, but started to go astray when I went away to college, got a little crazy, did stupid things etc... anyway... once I got married (in that same episcopal church) we started our lives together and tried to go to church but never really made it.  

Fast forward about 5 years and my husbands mom died suddenly at 50 years old.  I was 7 months pregnant at the time.  Death is a strange thing, it either brings you closer to your faith or pushes you away.  We tried very hard to find a church to go to, somewhere that would help him with his grief, but it was not as easy as you might think.  They didn't seem to have time for us.  In any case we found a church and got our son baptized.  It was a nice place with a nice pastor, BUT we ended up moving back to CT to be closer to his family. 

Again, another 5 years go by and I really want to get back to religion.  I start to read the bible, look at stuff online, call churches to see which one would be good to go to.  Do you know that not ONE of the 1/2 dozen churches I called ever called back??!?!  I guess that was some guidance right there!  Both my husband and I started to read the bible... it was interesting to say the least.. right  around this time I met someone in a chat room for weight loss (I was trying to sell supplements, lol) he was from Morocco and we started to talk about Islam.  He was very good, never pushy or anything, just told me the basics and asked me questions about my faith.  After a few chat sessions I went out and found a quran and started to read it.  It was truly amazing what was contained in that book.  It made so much sense.  At the time I didn't understand anything about how it was revealed or who Muhammad even was...

So, I went on with studying Islam.  Read books, read the Quran, read hadith, talked to  A LOT of people about it and it just became more and more clear.  My Moroccan friend told me to find a quiet place, cover my hair and ask God to guide me.  I did that, and felt an amazing peace and calm.  At that point there was nothing holding me back.  It was the truth.  Alhamdullilah I was guided to the straight path.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by hamayoun

The point of the thread is to show, contrary to bayleaf's claim, that when people leave Christianity for Islam, the #1 reason is because the concept of God in Islam is much more logical and far less confusing than that in Christianity.


I think muslims like to believe this.

However the "concept" of G_D is in and of itself an illogical concept.

It is based on a belief - a belief and a desire to have control over the world we live in.

We believe in G_D because we cannot explain our world completely.

As our understanding of the world increases, we will have more control over it, as our control over our environment increases we will have less need for our belief in G_D.

As I explained to you, wealthy educated muslims from your own homeland were, for the most part, only nominally muslim.
I posit the reason for this is because they were in more control of their environment than their compatriots.



are you ever a happy guy?  And honestly I'm sad for you that you can't find the truth in anything.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:49pm
Thank you, Hamayoun, for posting material from your Even Angels Ask forum - a site dedicated, for the uninitiated who may not know of what I refer, where reverts can come and feel a sense of belonging.  It's sort of like Cheers, except without tasty cold ones or Woody Harrellson.
 
Now, it's obvious, Hamayoun, that you've forgotten you're own conversion when you were the young, autoerotic adolescent that you were, crushing on your dear beloved cousin.  But take a closer look at the replies which your cronies have posted.  Take a look even at jamilah's latest response!  The very first quote which you copy and paste mentions twice the greater level of spirituality experienced within Islam as opposed to Christianity.  The second and third quotes state that Islam cleared up "the confusion" or offered "clarity" (which hardly hints at the 'reason' or 'logic' which you arbitrarily categorize these statements as).  And I'm absolutely befuddled how you could categorize the next statement as suggesting this individual converted due to reason and logic.
 
Is it so unspeakable if a person chooses to convert based on faith, rooted in heartfelt spirituality and emotion, rather than the intellectual facticity which you seem to be so gung-ho about?  Do you even know what the word "convert" means?  Or are you still so busy chomping at the bit creating WhyIslam's own Hezbollah that you've forgotten the basics of true conversion?
 
I remember during the days when I was Muslim that you used to proclaim to the Christians on this forum, "bayleaf [is home] is a Religious Studies major, and he knows a thing or to about religion."  Funny, now that I'm on the other side you've seemed to have forgotten your own advice.


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Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:16pm
Bay

EAA is not like cheers at all, so please spare us the non witty comments. 




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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Challa
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:30pm

I cannot say it was exactly one or the other.. heart or mind. .it was both..

You know you can argue that "wealthy" Muslims are more secular cause theyhave more control of their environment.. or it can be said they have been corrupted.. for greed and arrogance are diseases of the heart.  All the money in the world does not stop one from dying.. What they may have done, for you are juding a whole gorpu of people. But they haves sold themselves to this life.

We are mosre secular because we want to beleive material possessions matter.. and really they matter little..  Al lthe junk won't matter when this part of your journey is over.

And if they were more pious they would realize their challenge is to NOT be greedy, to give charity. We all have different tests..  If they were less secular they would have to think about that their thoughts, actions and deeds are being watched.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Our Quran has never been manipulated which is not the case for the bible

 

Ham, this statement is debatable.



Originally posted by hamayoun

What other faith prays in congregation the way we do?

There are rules for keeping your chasity and saving yourself for marriage (whereas anything goes in the christian faith)

 

My husband and I were the first to know each other. Saying anything goes in the Christian faith is a very broad generalization and extremely unfair because it assumes rampant fornication among Christians and absolutely none among Muslims. How do you know this? Are chastity belts still in use in Islam?


Originally posted by hamayoun



We have a holy occassion once a year when MILLIONS of Muslims come together to worship Allah together in the same place.

 

And this proves what?


Originally posted by hamayoun


We Muslims are submitters to Allah just as were all the prophets of bible.

 

In truth, the prophets of the Bible submitted to Yahweh.


Originally posted by hamayoun


The "zakat" we pay is used to benefit the whole Ummah- charity used in christianity usually ends up in the pastors pocket for new houses or bigger cars.

 

Could I dispel this complaint if I submitted a breakdown of the distribution of funds to various missionaries, a photo of our pastor’s 1991 Buick Regal, purchased used, and subject to frequent repairs normally done by the pastor?


Originally posted by hamayoun


Islam in general offers peace of mind and heart. There's just so much more the list goes on and on...

 

This peace of mind and heart seems to be insufficient for some Muslims. Or is there something else inherent in the beliefs that cause riots over cartoons?
 

Originally posted by hamayoun


 Ramadan--a whole month of fasting during the day is something special in Islam. the concept of fasting is not unique to Islam but in this form, from dawn to sunset, for a month out of the year, is the difference. 30 days is a real commitment, and is also very rewarding.

 

30 days of giving up food during daylight hours, ostensibly. Try a real say four day fast sometime if you’re interested in learning about the spiritual side of fasting.


Originally posted by hamayoun


Hajj--the mandatory pilgrimage (for anyone who can afford it) is also special, because this keeps Muslims all over the world bound to one single thing, and they gather in Mecca, Muslims of every size and color, for the sole purpose of worshiping God. That is very special.

So all in all, these pillars I think are special in Islam. Not because the concepts are new, but the way they are practiced, and Muslims all over the world do them all exactly the same way! That's the miracle of it.

 

Read a book called Thought Contagion sometime.



Originally posted by hamayoun


The constant request for guidance shows that Muslims don't assume they have all the answers and are invariably correct all the time in their understanding. They ask God for guidance continuously, in all matters.

 

Am I to assume you are making assumptions about Christians thinking they have God all figured out? Speaking for myself, that is not the case. I can’t hold a discussion with any teacher about some student without needing guidance from God.

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Originally posted by hamayoun

Islam has offered a complete way of life, which guides us through everything from our purpose here in life to the way we dress and interact with others. Islam is not a faith that only emerges once a week, or on holidays, but from the time one wakes up for their first prayer (Fajr) and all throughout the day. We are in constant reminder of Allah (swt) and what our duty is towards Him (swt). In Islam our faith is always there and our minds are always on Allah (swt) which helps keeps us from straying into wrong behavior, from focusing on the material world, and we never forget there are consequences for our actions.

 

Here again you are generalizing unfairly, thinking that my faith is only important to me on Sunday.


Originally posted by hamayoun

Islam is beautiful in its simplicity, that there is one God (swt) and Muhammed (pbuh) is his messenger, the beautiful Qur'an (unaltered since it was first revealed) guides us and answers our questions.

 

Again, the unaltered nature of the Qur’an is debatable



Originally posted by hamayoun

I just never had this peace with Christianity, and could not take the religion seriously. It confused me and I could not accept that God (swt) had a son. Now I know Jesus (pbuh) was a great prophet, and that there is only one God (swt) pure and simple


Can't say exactly what it is.... the whole 'three gods in one' put me off to Christianity. Islam does not offer that confusion. I could not comprehend the idea that a man, flesh and blood just like me, died for my sins, and the sins of everyone in history, the present, the future... Just seemed so unreal to me. But, Islam cleared this up for me.
 

 

When you think in three dimensions, this confusion is understandable. Give God credit for not being bound by time and space as you and I are. “Flesh and blood”, yes, but  “just like you”? Not hardly. Islam cleared it up for you how; by saying it’s not true therefore making life easier in that you don’t have to consider the possibility? That sounds intellectually dishonest to me. I don’t want to have to deal with it, so I’ll ignore it. Mohammed said I could.

Originally posted by hamayoun

There is also the way of life. There is not the concept that you can go get drunk and sleep around, then go to get forgiveness or go to confession once a week. Islam keeps your focus on good, on God, and doing the right thing on a daily basis. This helped a lot, after watching a drunk step father going to pray for forgiveness every Sunday.

 

No Christian who really understands their faith will look at sin in this way. The price paid to rectify the problem of sin was too great to not view sin as an extremely serious matter, not something that can be confessed and forgiven lightly.





Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 9:32pm
all of the things in Hamayouns post are what reverts have said about why they reverted.  Its not a challenge to anyone to dispute them but our reasons why we did what we did. 

And I really find your dissing Ramadan to be a bit rude, but whatever.  When you talk of 'real' fasting are you saying you wont eat or drink anything for 4 days? 


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 10:24pm
I will drink water, sometimes flavored with a little lemon. For three days prior to a fast, there is a decrease in caloric intake, then it is just water for four days. But it did take me a number of months to work up to a four day fast.

Fasting without food or water is very tricky business and should not be engaged in without very clear guidance from God.

The intent was not to be disrespectful. When I hear about a fast that lasts from sunup to sundown, it strikes me as something less than the sort of fast I'm talking about, that's all.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 10:35pm
Try to not eat or drink anything for 15 hours everyday for 30 days... its not easy...

We fast during Ramadan because it was commanded by Allah to do so.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 10:36pm
Salam

Like Jamilahz says, these are the views of 'been there, seen that' ex Christians, some of whom were VERY practicing.  I am NOT giving my own views here, simply pasting what ex-Christians say.

http://www.mercyofallah.com/basics/pillars/saum.html - Here is a good link to what Ramadan is really about. 


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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 10:51pm
Please see my replies below.

Originally posted by bayleaf

Thank you, Hamayoun, for posting material from your Even Angels Ask forum - a site dedicated, for the uninitiated who may not know of what I refer, where reverts can come and feel a sense of belonging.  It's sort of like Cheers, except without tasty cold ones or Woody Harrellson.

H: The forum that bayleaf is talking about is a forum for reverts only, whose function is to give reverts the kind of support they can sometimes only get from other reverts.
 
Now, it's obvious, Hamayoun, that you've forgotten you're own conversion when you were the young, autoerotic adolescent that you were, crushing on your dear beloved cousin. 

H: Very classy.  You now decide to openly publicize information I told you in confidence.  Whatever religion you follow, that kind of behaviour really says a whole lot about you personally.

But take a closer look at the replies which your cronies have posted.  Take a look even at jamilah's latest response!  The very first quote which you copy and paste mentions twice the greater level of spirituality experienced within Islam as opposed to Christianity.  The second and third quotes state that Islam cleared up "the confusion" or offered "clarity" (which hardly hints at the 'reason' or 'logic' which you arbitrarily categorize these statements as).  And I'm absolutely befuddled how you could categorize the next statement as suggesting this individual converted due to reason and logic.

H: I disagree.  That's why I opened this thread.  Of course we could try discussing it in a polite manner rather than the aggresive approach you seem to be taking here.  But my point is that the 'clarity' only comes through reason and logic.
 
Is it so unspeakable if a person chooses to convert based on faith, rooted in heartfelt spirituality and emotion, rather than the intellectual facticity which you seem to be so gung-ho about?  Do you even know what the word "convert" means?  Or are you still so busy chomping at the bit creating WhyIslam's own Hezbollah that you've forgotten the basics of true conversion?

H: Of course it's possible, but ultimately they VERY first thing muslims are supposed to call non muslims is the fact of one God.  Without that being in place, spirutality and emotion are of no point whatsoever.  I have come across people who het excited abotu Islam after reading stuff from slightly weird sufis (not all sufis are like that), but that is NOT how to come to islam or hwo to call to Islam.  As for your very lame Hezbollah attack, the new Dawah Forum was created (a) to prevent disruptive muslims from damaging polite discussions on Islam, and (b) to prevent these kind of derogratory, personal attacking posts.
 
I remember during the days when I was Muslim that you used to proclaim to the Christians on this forum, "bayleaf [is home] is a Religious Studies major, and he knows a thing or to about religion."  Funny, now that I'm on the other side you've seemed to have forgotten your own advice.

H: Okay, you do know a thing or two about religion.  But that does not mean that I  am not allowed to disagree with you.





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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:27am
This is kind of tedious.

hamayoun in all fairness you must also post the comments of ex-reverts like bay and myself.

I claim that my attempt to reconcile islam with my own conscience failed miserably, not least because islam to me while being a wonderful faith, came with as many problems as benefits.

With as many inconsistinencies as any other faith.

The bottom line is that as time progresses you will find thousands of ex-reverts, some like bay will be at peace with islam, others like me will be more beligerent.

The bottom line is that islam sticks for some folk, and for some folk it dont work.

For me the problem with islam was a moral code that I found primitive.
Why would I trade a far more refined moral code for one from the 7th century CE.


Posted By: devd
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:46am
Originally posted by algebra


Why would I trade a far more refined moral code for one from the 7th century CE.


I don't know, you tell us:

To learn humility?

To learn the truth?

To get into the pants of some hot babe?


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:22am
Originally posted by jamilahz

Try to not eat or drink anything for 15 hours everyday for 30 days... its not easy...

We fast during Ramadan because it was commanded by Allah to do so.


To deny your desires at any time is difficult.

However this entire thread is a silly my car is bigger and shinier than your car thing.

when will we realise that its not the car, but the driver that matters?

islam was not the car that fit my style, I found islam morally inconsistent and illogical.

another revert finds it logical and wonderful- everybody is different.

i took the trouble to examine islam thoroughly, in the end I found it didnt work for me.

In all honesty, I find christianity is way more morally consistent than islam.

However the theology of christianity is a stretch for me.


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by hamayoun

The point of the thread is to show, contrary to bayleaf's claim, that when people leave Christianity for Islam, the #1 reason is because the concept of God in Islam is much more logical and far less confusing than that in Christianity.


I think muslims like to believe this.

However the "concept" of G_D is in and of itself an illogical concept.

It is based on a belief - a belief and a desire to have control over the world we live in.

We believe in G_D because we cannot explain our world completely.

As our understanding of the world increases, we will have more control over it, as our control over our environment increases we will have less need for our belief in G_D.

As I explained to you, wealthy educated muslims from your own homeland were, for the most part, only nominally muslim.
I posit the reason for this is because they were in more control of their environment than their compatriots.



are you ever a happy guy?  And honestly I'm sad for you that you can't find the truth in anything.
Just because one doesn't necessarily believe in god doesn't mean that one is unhappy or that one cannot find the truth in things.  You are so wrong to think this.
Because you need to believe in a god to be happy, is in no way indicative that everyone needs to believe in god to be happy.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: ScoobyGurl
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:02pm
The one question I have is why is converting for spiritual and/or emotional reasons a bad thing? Religion is ultimately based on spirituality and our emotional relationship to God, the universe, or whatever else we believe in.
 
I can't deny that I find it much easier to grasp the Islamic concept of God over the Christian concept. That being said, a lot of things I do are spiritual in nature. Believing in a God who isn't remote but who is involved in everyday affairs is spiritual and emotional, no?
 
Maybe conversion is a combination of logic and spiritual and emotional factors.


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http://modernmuslimwoman.com/ - "Every Muslim ought to be able to say 'The Qur'an has been revealed for me.'" Muhammad Asad
http://islaminviewforum.com - Islam in View


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:17pm
Salam

Yes Scooby, of course it's a combination.  The point I am making is that when it comes to Christianity to Islam (can't talk of other conversions), reason and logic plays a very large part, more than the small part which bayleaf is talking about.  Let's remember that the Quran calls to both polythiests and to Christians and Jews thru reason and logic.


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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: ScoobyGurl
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:31pm
No, I'm not denying reason and logic. They do play a large part. I just wasn't sure what you were saying about spirituality.

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http://modernmuslimwoman.com/ - "Every Muslim ought to be able to say 'The Qur'an has been revealed for me.'" Muhammad Asad
http://islaminviewforum.com - Islam in View


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by scruggnut

Originally posted by jamilahz

Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by hamayoun

The point of the thread is to show, contrary to bayleaf's claim, that when people leave Christianity for Islam, the #1 reason is because the concept of God in Islam is much more logical and far less confusing than that in Christianity.

I think muslims like to believe this.

However the "concept" of G_D is in and of itself an illogical concept.

It is based on a belief - a belief and a desire to have control over the world we live in.

We believe in G_D because we cannot explain our world completely.

As our understanding of the world increases, we will have more control over it, as our control over our environment increases we will have less need for our belief in G_D.

As I explained to you, wealthy educated muslims from your own homeland were, for the most part, only nominally muslim.
I posit the reason for this is because they were in more control of their environment than their compatriots.



are you ever a happy guy?  And honestly I'm sad for you that you can't find the truth in anything.
Just because one doesn't necessarily believe in god doesn't mean that one is unhappy or that one cannot find the truth in things.  You are so wrong to think this.
Because you need to believe in a god to be happy, is in no way indicative that everyone needs to believe in god to be happy.


Well scrugg, I honestly do feel sad that Algebra feels he has to rip everything apart... maybe that does make him happy.  I never said he had to believe in God to be happy, I just sense an overwhelming amount of sadness in him right now.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:53pm

The only logic involved in converting from Christianity to Islam is the disassociation of God from an otherwise triune nature, which, in the minds of those who ultimately convert, has been a gradual process nonetheless.  It's not to say some people don't have epiphanies, but what are those epiphanies rooted in?  I don't convert to Islam because the theological and philosophical presumption of tawhid is logically sound.  I convert because the concept of tawhid makes me feel something

The triune nature of God does not have to make a lick of sense if I willingly choose to believe.  I do not have to be able to explain what a hypostasis is in order to enjoy the merits of following Christ and living a Christian life.  And I most certainly do not need to ponder for long the tawhid of Allah if I'm already spiritually and emotionally perplexed, fatigued, and dead to what I'm hearing from the pulpit.


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Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by jamilahz

Try to not eat or drink anything for 15 hours everyday for 30 days... its not easy...

We fast during Ramadan because it was commanded by Allah to do so.


To deny your desires at any time is difficult.

However this entire thread is a silly my car is bigger and shinier than your car thing.

when will we realise that its not the car, but the driver that matters?

islam was not the car that fit my style, I found islam morally inconsistent and illogical.

another revert finds it logical and wonderful- everybody is different.

i took the trouble to examine islam thoroughly, in the end I found it didnt work for me.

In all honesty, I find christianity is way more morally consistent than islam.

However the theology of christianity is a stretch for me.


Dearst Algebra - the thread was not meant to be like that.  It did get taken off track, I admit I was upset a bit that our fasting legitimacy was questioned, but I was wrong to do that. 

I think that you have said in this forum about a zillion times that Islam was not for you.  I think we get it now. 


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by jamilahz

Try to not eat or drink anything for 15 hours everyday for 30 days... its not easy...

We fast during Ramadan because it was commanded by Allah to do so.


To deny your desires at any time is difficult.

However this entire thread is a silly my car is bigger and shinier than your car thing.

when will we realise that its not the car, but the driver that matters?

islam was not the car that fit my style, I found islam morally inconsistent and illogical.

another revert finds it logical and wonderful- everybody is different.

i took the trouble to examine islam thoroughly, in the end I found it didnt work for me.

In all honesty, I find christianity is way more morally consistent than islam.

However the theology of christianity is a stretch for me.
I have to disagree.  Morally, islam is less convoluted than christianity...and therefore, more consistant and logical.  But you are right, to each their own.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:32pm
Then scruggy we are dearly in need of your insight on the worshipping Allah thread, where we are debating the moral consequences of the verse 4:23, part of which states that men are legally entitled to have sex with their female captives.

To me, this is a perfect example of the convoluted nature of islam.

lets not forget - lying to murder an opponent of islam being accepted by Allah, who also states that killing one person is like killing all of humanity.

Not to mention Allah that asks men to deny themselves wine in this world, only to present them with rivers of wine in the next.

Reading all of these contradictory teachings would leave me positively schizophrenic.

Compare all these dubious teachings with the teachings of jesus in the sermon on the mount.

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted
Blessed are the meek,
for that shall possess the earth
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice
for they shal be satisfied
Blessed are the merciful
for they shall obtain mercy
Blessed are the clean of heart,
for they shall see God
Blessed are the peacemakers
for they shall be called children of God
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are you when men reproach you, and
persecute you, and
speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you,
for my sake.



I cant begin to understand how you have concluded the morality of christianity is convoluted.


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:46pm
ets not forget - lying to murder an opponent of islam being accepted by Allah, who also states that killing one person is like killing all of humanity.

Not to mention Allah that asks men to deny themselves wine in this world, only to present them with rivers of wine in the next.


Murder allowed by islam? I never saw that in the Qur'an, and the 'rivers of wine" is simply a metaphorical expression about a heaven or paradise we have never experienced.

Good luck to you.

Regards,
S.Waheed


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 3:45pm
Salam

Please stay on topic, thank you everyone.


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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: ScoobyGurl
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by bayleaf

The only logic involved in converting from Christianity to Islam is the disassociation of God from an otherwise triune nature, which, in the minds of those who ultimately convert, has been a gradual process nonetheless.  It's not to say some people don't have epiphanies, but what are those epiphanies rooted in?  I don't convert to Islam because the theological and philosophical presumption of tawhid is logically sound.  I convert because the concept of tawhid makes me feel something. 

The triune nature of God does not have to make a lick of sense if I willingly choose to believe.  I do not have to be able to explain what a hypostasis is in order to enjoy the merits of following Christ and living a Christian life.  And I most certainly do not need to ponder for long the tawhid of Allah if I'm already spiritually and emotionally perplexed, fatigued, and dead to what I'm hearing from the pulpit.


I disagree. Yes, believing in God can make you feel something but belief in God or one God, I think can be logical. As a Religious Studies major in college, I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the concept of Philosophy of Religion, which in some respects, does use logic to explain certain religious concepts. So why isn't possible for logic to be involved in process of accepting tawheed. This doesn't mean that there aren't some converts who didn't use logic when converting but your statement implies that it's not possible.


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http://modernmuslimwoman.com/ - "Every Muslim ought to be able to say 'The Qur'an has been revealed for me.'" Muhammad Asad
http://islaminviewforum.com - Islam in View


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:02pm
 
I said in a post elsewhere. Converting to Islam is easy. However making the switch from Islam to Christianity commonly brings with it complete rejection from within Islamic society, immediate as well as extended family and thats just in the West. In many Islamic theocratoc states one can expect the latter as well as demotion in employment at one end of the scale through to death at the other, with many other discomforting trials in between. That to me is a true demonstration of faith.  Now i know some Muslims converts here have claimed to have been treated shamefully when switching but this is extremely rare, certainly nowhere in comparrison.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: bayleaf
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by ScoobyGurl

I disagree. Yes, believing in God can make you feel something but belief in God or one God, I think can be logical. As a Religious Studies major in college, I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the concept of Philosophy of Religion, which in some respects, does use logic to explain certain religious concepts. So why isn't possible for logic to be involved in process of accepting tawheed. This doesn't mean that there aren't some converts who didn't use logic when converting but your statement implies that it's not possible.
 
Isn't this what I said, tho?  Did I not say that the only logic involved in conversion from Christianity to Islam is the disassociation of God from all other things, including the triune nature which central to Christianity?  But, in the same breath, I still maintain that logically coming to the realization of tawhid is not the catalyst for the actual conversion; otherwise, a person who "converts" based upon competing ideologies without an actual, true 'turn around', or change of heart, is no better than the whole of German Philosophy, latching onto that which seems most suitable to the age.
 
EDIT:  Does the shahadah not say, "I testify (bear witness) that there is no god except for Allah, and I testify (bear witness) that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"?  What does this mean?  Does it not just mean that I affirm as fact that Allah is One Allah, but also I bear witness (i.e., I choose to live as if) as if Allah is One Allah?  Without the latter part, there is no conversion to Islam and the remaining pillars rest on quicksand.
 
Take me, for instance.  I actually agree with the Islamic concept of tawhid, and I have stated before my own certain disaffections for the triune God.  I've even stated in this very forum, only a few months ago, as a Catholic Christian, that I could even accept Muhammed as a prophet and his message of divine origin.  But I'm not a Muslim, and I have no inclination to ever be a Muslim again no matter what anyone, not even family, might happen to say.  Why?  Because I, personally, feel no spiritual connection to Islam. 
 
And, speaking of the Philosophy of Religion, I should like to quote James Fitzjames Stephen, who the father of the Philosophy of Religion, William James, also quotes in his essay entitled, "The Will to Believe":
 
What do you think of yourself? What do you think of the world? ... These are questions with which all must deal as it seems good to them. They are riddles of the Sphinx, and in some way or other we must deal with them. ... In all important transactions of life we have to take a leap in the dark. ... If we decide to leave the riddles unanswered, that is a choice; if we waver in our answer, that, too, is a choice: but whatever choice we make, we make it at our peril. If a man chooses to turn his back altogether on God and the future, no one can prevent him; no one can show beyond reasonable doubt that he is mistaken. If a man thinks otherwise and acts as he thinks, I do not see that any one can prove that he is mistaken. Each must act as he thinks best; and if he is wrong, so much the worse for him. We stand on a mountain pass in the midst of whirling snow and blinding mist, through which we get glimpses now and then of paths which may be deceptive. If we stand still we shall be frozen to death. If we take the wrong road we shall be dashed to pieces. We do not certainly know whether there is any right one. What must we do? 'Be strong and of a good courage.' Act for the best, hope for the best, and take what comes. ... If death ends all, we cannot meet death better."


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Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:06pm
I am sorry, I think I have missed some conditioning.

What is logical about 'one' god, as opposed to 10 gods?



Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:11pm
Think about if you had two presidents of the USA. One Democrat, and one Republican. What could ever get done!? We have two Democrats running against each other now and even they can't agree!!!
 
So more than one ruler doesn't make sense logically, there would be conflict--who would be superior? There has to be only One.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:26pm
You are also assuming that G_Ds would be imperfect in the sense that they would not have a perfect understanding of each other.

I posit that G_Ds having perfect faculty would be in perfect agreement in all matters.

let us establish that these G_Ds have the same essential qualities as the quran defines.

omnipotent, omniscient beings.

You are projecting human failings onto G_Ds, to prove your point.
However the basic definition of G_Ds nullifies your arguement.



Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:44pm
Not really. You in fact are projecting the perfection of the unity of God (tawheed) onto the situation, assuming that God is the same, meaning there is only One.
 
If there were more than one God, which one would people need to rely on? If one god were a creator god and the other a destroyer, how could there be any agreement, it only makes sense for One to do both.
 
The attributes of God, like being omnipotent and omniscient, these only make sense if they are attributed to Only One. Which is why I'm saying you are the one projecting the perfection of God's Unity onto something that inherently would be flawed.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:48pm
what is the problem with Islam is the multiple personilities in the theology which we(christians who had came from Islam) don't know that it refers to the one God. Since Islam is simple then we could never know what personality he has, nevermind what form he has, and what to do in our obligation. I usely see when christians convert to Islam that they carry the christian personality theology to Islam than from a taliban(who is a muslim) who sees otherwise--->.      

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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:54pm
uh? omni is latin for 'all'

all powerful , all knowing, immortal.

Uni is latin for 'one'.

All knowing, all understanding beings that are all powerful would never dispute because they would be of 'one mind' on all matters.

Since there is only 'one' perfect understanding of any matter, we have to conclude that both beings would have the exact same understanding.

Essentially no dispute.

Suddenly islam is seeming to me, more and more like a man made faith, and even more so by a man with a rather limited intellect.



Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:10pm

Actually what you're saying when you write "both beings would have the exact same understanding" is that both being are the exact same. Meaning there aren't two beings. Just ONE. Which was my point.

The limited intellect I'm seeing here is indeed responsible for a man-made religion. That would be your intellect, and your religion.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:10pm
I've shared my story here, is there anyone else that can give us a few lines about how they came to Islam and how it changed their lives.  It might help steer things away from the bitter negativity that this thread was not meant for. :)

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I've shared my story here, is there anyone else that can give us a few lines about how they came to Islam and how it changed their lives.  It might help steer things away from the bitter negativity that this thread was not meant for. :)

Or, more precisely, what brought you from Christianity to Islam.  Would you have come without the reason and logic?


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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Actually what you're saying when you write "both beings would have the exact same understanding" is that both being are the exact same. Meaning there aren't two beings. Just ONE. Which was my point.




Whoa there....you are beginning to sound like a christian.

2 beings -1 mind, 1 purpose?

I stated 2 beings, now you are saying the two beings are really 1.

we seem to have arrived at christianity by using logic.




Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:19pm
LOL. No.
 
You stated two beings, but provided a situation which can only exist when there is ONE being.
 
So there must only be One.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:19pm
Goodness me algebra, give it a break!  I hate to break this to you, but not too many people here want to hear about your very own 'man made version' of Islam.  Now can we please stay on topic?  Since you were NOT a Christian who came to Islam, I really think you should leave this thread for the intended audience.


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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:38pm
......

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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:40pm
So start another thread.  STAY ON TOPIC please.

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Originally posted by jamilahz

I've shared my story here, is there anyone else that can give us a few lines about how they came to Islam and how it changed their lives.  It might help steer things away from the bitter negativity that this thread was not meant for. :)

Or, more precisely, what brought you from Christianity to Islam.  Would you have come without the reason and logic?


It had so much to do with reason and logic... it all made perfect sense.  I don't know the stats but there are so many scientist etc that come to Islam because of the scientific miracles in the Quran.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Think about if you had two presidents of the USA. One Democrat, and one Republican. What could ever get done!? We have two Democrats running against each other now and even they can't agree!!!
 
So more than one ruler doesn't make sense logically, there would be conflict--who would be superior? There has to be only One.
 
 Hi Amy.
 
 Taking a step aside from both our faiths for a sec. Whether God is one individual or three distinct individuals in one Godhead we are talking about the Divine. Man is man and imperfect in nature. God on the other hand is perfect in relation to all things . If God truly is 3 distinct individuals in one Godhead, then to suggest friction ( for want of a better word) between them is to suggest something less than divine, or weakness in one being in comparrison to the other, a corruptability if you like. Other than that i think its risky to dis-regard that which we dis-agree about God when reasoned by human logic. Strictly speaking God is not a logical concept. 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

LOL. No.
 
You stated two beings, but provided a situation which can only exist when there is ONE being.
 
So there must only be One.


why??? why??? what precludes two beings existing?

give me proof of why my situation is an impossibility.


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:16pm
Hamayoun,

If you want to tout the logic of islam, it is important to show readers both sides

I question the much vaunted 'logic' of islam,

IMHO if a person has come to islam, it is because they have lacked the logical insight to question its position.

A truly logical human being would reject the basic tenet of islam - tawheed.
tawheed - illogically defines boundaries on the nature of G_D.
Something I have always had a huge problem with.

Mind you, i dont object to monotheism - simply islamic monotheism.

I have logically shown you that christian monotheism is as valid if not more valid than islamic monotheism.

In effect, if logic is the reason why you leave christianity for islam - you have left christianity for the WRONG reason.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:49pm
Simplicity of its theology should be the reason why people leave christianity to come to islam.
 
Oh! And also rationality. Muslims are not ask to give credence to such as the irrational concept of a triune divinity. 
 
Wait. There's another. Equality. The universality of Islam's brotherhood is appealing to westerners. In Islam, everybody is equal. The janitor and the CEO stands side by side.
 
What abt practicality? Islam is a very practical religion as against christianity's abstractionist outlook towards life on this earth.
 
There's more.


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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Damo808

Hi Amy.
 
 Taking a step aside from both our faiths for a sec. Whether God is one individual or three distinct individuals in one Godhead we are talking about the Divine. Man is man and imperfect in nature. God on the other hand is perfect in relation to all things . If God truly is 3 distinct individuals in one Godhead, then to suggest friction ( for want of a better word) between them is to suggest something less than divine, or weakness in one being in comparrison to the other, a corruptability if you like. Other than that i think its risky to dis-regard that which we dis-agree about God when reasoned by human logic. Strictly speaking God is not a logical concept. 
 
It's not friction which suggest something less than divinity, it is saying that God exists as more than One individual. To say God is two or three or more distinct individuals is what suggests something less than divine. That is the weakness.
 
If God makes himself as "father" and "son" then that is an analogy to humanity. But is a father the same as the son? Do the father and the son always agree? Or does one have to bow and respect the other? Isn't one inferior to the other? Naturally. So there's no sense in using an analogy that is already flawed? Or isn't that an analogy already in use. So I'll use it too.
 
If there is One purpose, then there is Only One God. But if you split that up, there is friction. It's not because humans are flawed, but in fact the very analogy is flawed. The only logical conclusion is that God is One.
 
And it is logical, of course. It is the conclusion which most people will independently arrive at.
 
For who do they call on in their moment of absolute peril? "Oh God!" When someone is confronted with death--who do they call on? "Oh God!" Just God. Just One. The Only One who can help. This is natural, it is a natural inclination really, that people tend to. What is illogical is to distort the natural inclination, which your body and your soul tell you, and to make things up about God that aren't true.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:24am
Amy,

Please explain to me why having two beings with One purpose is a weakness?

your original assertion was that the weakness would be friction, I have explained to you that there will be none since an essential understanding of G_Ds if you will is that they are omniscient.

Amy, if you are truthful and can follow the logic of my posts, you will accept that islam works for you, not because it is more logical, but because you feel like believing in islam.

You have not been able to show that islamic monotheism is logically superior to the monotheism we have been discussing.

In truth your acceptance of islam is instinctual and not logical.

Perhaps you converted to prove a point to someone? to rebel? i dont know.
Either way you should never claim you converted because islam is more logical- its not.


Posted By: Soeharto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:29am
Salam my brothers & sisters,
 
Remember that we all are created by the same Allah. He teaches us to love one another, even he or she is your enemy.
 
We all now still alive due to His Mercy & Love. And we all soon or later will go back to His place in heaven. In heaven He won't ask your skin color, nationality, status, education and religion. He will ask you what you have done in this world.
 
We cannot say we are the servant of Allah if we do not follow Him.
Allah teaches us Love, so do not hate others. Killing is still Killing no matter the reason is.
 
The true servant of Allah will be the light for the people, not a burden for the society. Action sounds louder than a thousand word. So act and thing as the real servant of Allah. 
 
No Killing but Loving
No Blaming but Forgiving
No selfish but serving
Who are we, thus we can say we are right and they are wrong?
Can we say all buddists go to hell and others go to heaven?
 
No matter your religions, 
No matter how bad you are,
No matter how rich you are,
We are all created by the same creator, ALLAH.
Allah is full of Love and Mercy, so do love and mercy to others.
 
Allahhu Akbar!   
 
   


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Wassalam, Soeharto Baramuli


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 9:01am

a leader is what god wants. A follower doesn't know what he is doing and trips over God's planned. then what religion does matter if it works within a person to believe in order to answer for their creation. God is important to us all...



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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

LOL. No.
 
You stated two beings, but provided a situation which can only exist when there is ONE being.
 
So there must only be One.
But, if the 2 beings were gods, how would we, as human beings and not gods, know or understand how effectively 2 gods (even if they were seperate beings) could work together?
I think you are looking at it in a human perspective...i.e, using governments as a diagram or model just doesn't cut it when talking about something we cannot understand.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: hannah114
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by algebra


Either way you should never claim you converted because islam is more logical- its not.
 
 
who are you to claim that you know why Amy reverted to Islam? are you some all-knowing being of some sort? for someone as confused as yourself who changes his religion like an old pair of socks you are in no position to judge others


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Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:42pm
Actually I dont know why Amy converted to islam. I made that very clear.

I simply stated that it cannot be because islam is more logical because its not more logical.


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:58pm
Although I'd love to reply to some of the posts on this, I am going to leave it and just try to reply to the topic of the post.

I was born into a Christian family, my father was raised Catholic and even went to Seminary for a few years before deciding it wasn't for him. My mother was raised Lutheran. I was baptised Catholic for the benefit of my father's mother who wouldn't hear of us being baptised Lutheran, but we were raised Lutheran. My father had found too much in Catholicism that didn't make sense to him. I grew up attending church every week, going to Sunday school, participating in youth activities. I was so involved that when my confirmation class had to put on our own service prior to being confirmed I was selected to act as the pastor and led the service. Like many people, after confirmation and due to college and things I fell away from regular church attendance but maintained a deep believe in God and prayed daily.

My wife (Jamilah) already told a lot of the in between how we had thought several times about going back and did for a while after my mother died and our son was born but nothing really seemed to stick and we never really found a place that fit our beliefs.

When we decided to start thinking more seriously about religion a couple of years ago and started reading the bible, I came at it from a logical perspective. I am a computer programmer, and always excelled in math, science and logical studies in school, so that has always been the tool I have relied on in most areas of my wife.

As we read the Bible, I found many things that were contradictory and didn't make sense. Some verses saying the son is not responsible for the sins of the father others saying that people are punished to a thousand generations (sorry don't remember the number or the verse) for the sins of the father. And of course the concept of original sin where all of mankind is born into sin for the sin of Adam and Eve. There are many examples, but as I started to learn about Islam these contradictions went away. There was no concept of original sin, people are only responsible for their own sins. Children are not damned to hell if they are not baptised. Children who die go to paradise because they are innocent of sin until they are capable of understanding it. This made much more logical sense to me. How can a fair God punish people for things they didn't do or things they don't understand?

I continued to cling to the emotion of Christianity, I had a hard time letting go of my concept of Jesus even though the trinity does not make logical sense. Islam was much more logical to me. I had several oportunities to be pulled by emotional things, that I can't really explain. I tried very hard to not pay attention to things I now see as obvious signs as I had been praying for guidance. I got to the point that I had accepted that the Islamic concept of God and Tawhid were more logical. I had even accepted that Jesus was not sent to die for our sins. I had some good Muslim friends that helped me with some historical things that I didn't quite understand. I was to the point that my logical side had accepted the truth of Islam but I still clung to Christianity from an emotional perspective.

In the end I needed an emotional experience to pull me away from the emotional attachment to Christianity and I got that one day when  friend advised me of a prayer to say in asking for guidance. I had the emotional experience I needed immediately after saying that du'a. My logical acceptance of Islam could finally overcome my emotional attachment to Christianity and I said my shahada. Alhamdulillah.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by algebra

Actually I dont know why Amy converted to islam. I made that very clear.

I simply stated that it cannot be because islam is more logical because its not more logical.


Just cause you say it don't make it true...


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: BookWorm
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:54pm

It is possible that a person can convert to another religion threw logic and not have emotion play a significant role. From where I’m standing you’re putting a limitation on people when you say that they can’t. Humanity is vase and what we can do at times seem unless. What makes sense to one person, or what’s logical to them is not logical to everyone. I believe that someone using their standard of logic and thinking can come to the conclusion that there exist many Gods, or one God or no God. It is true that all conversion has some form of emotion within it but to dismiss how large a place logic has within the conversion process is not very logical to me; maybe it’s logical to you.



Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:10pm
Let me try another example as two why the weakness in algebra's argument is the fact that there are "two" and that there being "two" implies faults in perfect divinity.
 
Let's look at two identical twins. They were born from the same mother, same father, have the exact same DNA so are physically identical. They are the same in every way possible.
 
But they are two individuals. Even though they are exactly the same, they won't have the same view of everything, they are two individuals who will disagree.
 
Your theory of two gods who are exactly the same is similar to my example. In both cases, the view of each CANNOT be the same as the other's. So they are different. It is not possible to ignore that difference, to gloss over it by saying they are the same.
 
The only way for real sameness to exist is in the existence of ONENESS. 


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 11:41am
Why CANNOT the 2 G_Ds have the same view on every situation?

Again you are imposing a human limit (incomplete understanding of a situation) on the nature of G_D.

You simply cannot redefine the nature of G_D (not omniscient) at whim - to limit the nature of G_D - to a human notion of oneness.

Their understanding of all matters is complete. Since there can be only one perfect and complete understanding - they will be in complete concordance on all matters.

If they are omniscient,  they will always be of one mind.

Again Amy, I believe I have made my case.
It doesnt interest me to repeat over and over the same idea.

If you are content with your understanding of the matter, that is fine.

However if in the interest of truth, you are willing to continue this discussion I will be only to happy to comply. We only learn by exploring.

I would love to pursue this discussion if only to see where we end up.

For me too this has been an eye opening discussion.

At the start of this thread, my greatest problem with christianity was their notion of the trinity.

After this discussion with you, I will have to revisit their scriptures, because their definition of G_D seems plausible.


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by algebra

Why CANNOT the 2 G_Ds have the same view on every situation?

Again you are imposing a human limit (incomplete understanding of a situation) on the nature of G_D.

You simply cannot redefine the nature of G_D (not omniscient) at whim - to limit the nature of G_D.

Their understanding of all matters is complete. Since there can be only one perfect and complete understanding - they will be in complete concordance on all matters.

If they are omniscient, they will automatically think the same thing at the same time, they will be of one mind.


You are doing exactly what you are accusing Amy of here. You are applying your incomplete understanding. You are making God into a computer that if you take 2 computers and program then exactly the same they will produce the same output. You are completely removing any aspect of personality (obviously not necessarily our understanding of personality) from God.

Look at Allah's creation. He created Angels to obey him completely and worship him always. He created Mankind and Jinn with freewill. Can you say for sure that another omniscient, omnipotent god would not create just creatures that obeyed and worshiped him completely? Or maybe created more kinds of intelligent creatures with freewill or made it so humans could see Jinn also or any other possibility? Just because they would both be all knowing and all powerful does not mean they are identical in every way? And if there was more than one, why wouldn't they create separate universes/creations to be the lord of instead of sharing one universe? You are showing a very narrow view of this and then criticizing others for not sharing your narrow view.

If there were 2 all powerful gods, could one destroy the other? If not then are they all powerful? If so are they all powerful? I think being all powerful may negate there being more than 1.

Originally posted by algebra


At the start of this thread, my greatest problem with christianity was their notion of the Trinity.

After this discussion with you, I will have to revisit their scriptures, because their definition of G_D seems plausible.


But the trinity is not 3 gods right? It is one God in 3 parts or something. The 3 parts being different, having different roles, different personalities so to speak but somehow being in complete agreement as 1 God.


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 1:44pm
2 computers will always give you the same output for the same input because each computer program defines a closed system.
In truth, within the closed system of the program the computer is omniscient.
(not unlike G_D and the universe)

Humans will not give you the same output because we do not know everything about the system i.e. the universe.
When you refer to personality, personality is not really a distinct component of a persons identity , as much as personality is the sum total of a persons understanding of their lifes experiences.
This is why personalities are different - it is because two peoples understanding of a situation is different.

However in the 2 G_Ds hypothesis this is not the case. They will both have complete and perfect understandings of any situation. (And there can be only 1 complete and perfect understanding of any situation)

Again the Omnipotence idea is a logical fallacy - let me ask you a question since you say you understand mathematics - which is greater infinity or infinity + 1.
If both G_Ds are infinitely powerful, equalities and inequalities do not hold.

I already considered this possibility prior to posting.
Again you are trying to define a human trait for G_D.

Destruction (or any such mortal trait) is not defined for G_D(s)

In other words, ask yourself the question - if your G_D is all powerful can he commit suicide?
Can G_D impose mortality on Himself? Is mortality a trait of G_D? If not, then your question is not valid.

Interestingly the quran poses the same question, another reason why I believe that quran is the words of a man - it lacks a logical foundation.

In the same way to answer your questions
1. could one destroy the other?
Is mortality defined for G_Ds? if not , then the question is not valid.
It is akin to me asking you the question - Can Allah create a stone so heavy that he himself cannot carry it?

2. If not then are they all powerful?
Yes they are, just like your G_D is.
When dealing with infinities, I would like to remind you that equalities and inequalities do not apply.

Finally as for the trinity I do not have complete information to answer your questions, however I will say this only - it seems plausible.

But I will have to consider the prospect logically.

P.s. I too have studied mathematics (engineering) , and I am heavily involved in islamic finance. - we should enjoy this discussion.


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 2:19pm
The question that begs asking about the trinity is this.

What defines one G_D?

Can one G_D be defined as - One mind, one purpose?

Is this what christian scripture says?  perhaps a christian can give us his input.


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by algebra

2 computers will always give you the same output for the same input because each computer program defines a closed system.
In truth, within the closed system of the program the computer is omniscient.
(not unlike G_D and the universe)

Humans will not give you the same output because we do not know everything about the system i.e. the universe.
When you refer to personality, personality is not really a distinct component of a persons identity , as much as personality is the sum total of a persons understanding of their lifes experiences.
This is why personalities are different - it is because two peoples understanding of a situation is different.

However in the 2 G_Ds hypothesis this is not the case. They will both have complete and perfect understandings of any situation. (And there can be only 1 complete and perfect understanding of any situation)


So you are assuming there is ever only 1 right answer? Given infinite knowledge and power there is only 1 way to do something? You are also referring to a situation. What about the beginning of creation? Is there only 1 perfect way to create a universe? Is it reasonable to assume that 2 all powerful all knowledgeable beings would want to create the exact same universes?

I know I am using human terms but since we don't have other terms to use, do you think a god does not have any kind of emotion or personality? Nothing that would make him distinct from another being that had the same characteristics in terms of power and knowledge. That seems like a pretty big assumption to me.

Originally posted by algebra


Again the Omnipotence idea is a logical fallacy - let me ask you a question since you say you understand mathematics - which is greater infinity or infinity + 1.
If both G_Ds are infinitely powerful, equalities and inequalities do not hold.


Right you can't use infinity in math because its not a real number.

OK, take the mortality of the proposed gods out of it. Does it makes sense that there can be more than one being that is infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of a second god mean they are not infinitely powerful? If one god created something and the other wanted to destroy it. If the one cannot destroy it how can he be infinitely powerful? If one cannot protect it how can he be infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of more than 1 put a limit on the power of one or both of them?

Originally posted by algebra


I already considered this possibility prior to posting.
Again you are trying to define a human trait for G_D.

Destruction (or any such mortal trait) is not defined for G_D(s)

In other words, ask yourself the question - if your G_D is all powerful can he commit suicide?
Can G_D impose mortality on Himself? Is mortality a trait of G_D? If not, then your question is not valid.

Interestingly the quran poses the same question, another reason why I believe that quran is the words of a man - it lacks a logical foundation.


What question is that? And why is it not logical?

Originally posted by algebra


Can Allah create a stone so heavy that he himself cannot carry it?


That is actually not a hard question. Allah exists outside of his creation and he can always affect it. Allah can create something so heavy nothing in creation can lift it. But he will always be able to move, destroy whatever that object because it is his creation. And what is weight? Weight is a part of the system Allah created, it is based on mass and gravity, which are all part of Allah's creation. Without these things the object weight is meaningless.




Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by algebra

The question that begs asking about the trinity is this.

What defines one G_D?

Can one G_D be defined as - One mind, one purpose?

Is this what christian scripture says?  perhaps a christian can give us his input.


Have fun finding any information about the trinity in the Christian scripture. 


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by UmarZ


So you are assuming there is ever only 1 right answer? Given infinite knowledge and power there is only 1 way to do something? You are also referring to a situation. What about the beginning of creation? Is there only 1 perfect way to create a universe? Is it reasonable to assume that 2 all powerful all knowledgeable beings would want to create the exact same universes?

I know I am using human terms but since we don't have other terms to use, do you think a god does not have any kind of emotion or personality? Nothing that would make him distinct from another being that had the same characteristics in terms of power and knowledge. That seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


There is no assumption here UmarZ, there can only ever be 'one' perfect answer. To use your computer analogy, the universe is a closed system to G_D(s), they have perfect knowledge of it from start to end. Hence no matter how they approach it the perfect answer will always be the same.


Originally posted by Umarz



Right you can't use infinity in math because its not a real number.

OK, take the mortality of the proposed gods out of it. Does it makes sense that there can be more than one being that is infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of a second god mean they are not infinitely powerful? If one god created something and the other wanted to destroy it. If the one cannot destroy it how can he be infinitely powerful? If one cannot protect it how can he be infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of more than 1 put a limit on the power of one or both of them?


Why should it be a limit? why can you not have 2 infinitely powerful beings?

This is the exact same question i posed to amy.


Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?


I will search for this and post it.


Originally posted by Umarz



That is actually not a hard question. Allah exists outside of his creation and he can always affect it. Allah can create something so heavy nothing in creation can lift it. But he will always be able to move, destroy whatever that object because it is his creation. And what is weight? Weight is a part of the system Allah created, it is based on mass and gravity, which are all part of Allah's creation. Without these things the object weight is meaningless.



You have not answered the question, you have only shown me  - like I showed you with the mortality question - that the question itself is incorrect.

I have a follow up question to this one though - if G_D is outside of creation and G_D is in heaven.

How can G_D be contained by heaven? For that matter G_D sitting on his throne as mentioned in the quran - is the throne created ? or not?


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:52pm
Two computers with the same program actually won't always give the same output. The computer can be affected by other variables, like available memory and temperature (not to mention other conditions which could affect the components.) But more importantly, the input variables are different--and if "two gods" existed then their perspective would be different.
 
The flaw is in having two--that is the illogical nature of your argument. The attributes of God only make sense in the framework of tawheed, of oneness.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:59pm
Salam

Good grief... why is this so difficult to understand?  Here is a description of the Islamic concept of God.  Is there anything here that does not fall under the category of 'logical' ???

  • God, and God alone, created the universe and everything in it.
  • God is the sustainer and maintainer of the universe.
  • God is the absolute controller of the universe and all actions occurring within it.
  • God has complete power over all things.
  • God is not dependent on anyone or anything, whereas everyone and everything is dependent on Him.
  • God does not have a "family" : no wife, no children, no parents.
  • There is nothing like God.
  • God is transcendent above His creation.
  • God cannot be manifested in any of his creation.
  • God does not become incarnate in any of his creation.
  • God is the only being who can hear our prayers.
  • God is the only being who has the power to answer our prayers, since He is the only one who can control the actions of the universe and of everything within it.
  • God is the only entity who deserves to be worshipped.
  • Humans do not need any intercessor or intervener between themselves and God when worshipping or praying to Him, but should turn directly to God.




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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Two computers with the same program actually won't always give the same output. The computer can be affected by other variables, like available memory and temperature (not to mention other conditions which could affect the components.) But more importantly, the input variables are different--and if "two gods" existed then their perspective would be different.


uh?? for an engineering student you are being particularly dense.

the input variable for a particular 1-1 function will always give you the same output.

Or have you suddenly forgotten basic mathematics?

I have explained to you, that the input variable cannot be different, because each of them is omniscient (they know everything) or in other words - everything is inputted, they have perfect wisdom so they process it identically - end result - same output.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by algebra



uh?? for an engineering student you are being particularly dense.




Why do you have to be so rude? 


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www.hudastore.com

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Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:16pm
because I hold her to a higher standard; she has a brain - she ought to use it to the best of her ability.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:17pm
is that supposed to sound nice?  

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Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:18pm
no, its simply the truth. The girl is smart.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:23pm
She is very smart you are right, but that does not mean you have to be a big meanie all the time.  Think before you type man... would you want anyone to say that to you?  

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by algebra

uh?? for an engineering student you are being particularly dense.

the input variable for a particular 1-1 function will always give you the same output.

Or have you suddenly forgotten basic mathematics?

I have explained to you, that the input variable cannot be different, because each of them is omniscient (they know everything) or in other words - everything is inputted, they have perfect wisdom so they process it identically - end result - same output.
 
But the input variable MUST be different, because they are not the same god according to you, because there are two. Moreover, gods aren't computers.
 
And while you hearken to "basic math" I'm calling you to a higher plane--what are computers made of? Chips, made of transistors. I am taking a class in transistors and I can tell you that sometimes if you breathe on these things differently they will operate differently.  We use "tolerances" and ranges of operation rather than simple basic figures--because the real world is too complicated for basic math.
 
And yet you try to simplify god to something more basic than even reality.
 
If one god is All-knowing, then it knows what the other is thinking.
The other god is all-knowing, then it knows what the first is thinking.
 
Are they thinking the same thing?


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:37pm
to be honest - I dont see her objecting to my tone, until then I will believe that its well received.

From what I know of her, she gives as good as she gets, so I am not going to bring out the kid gloves yet.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:38pm
ok then feel free to be a big meanie all you want.  Charming you are.

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

 We use "tolerances" and ranges of operation rather than simple basic figures--because the real world is too complicated for basic math.


tolerances are used because we cannot control factors outside the system.

Within the closed system, there is no variability.

You are implying that there are variables that are beyond the control of the G_D(s).

Since creation is a closed system to the G_D(s), there are no variabilities.









Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

 
But the input variable MUST be different, because they are not the same god according to you, because there are two. Moreover, gods aren't computers.



No they must not be, because the input is the super set of all events (to have ever occurred in creation)
 



Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Charming you are.


I must not be, obviously it was not enough to keep my wife with me.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:52pm
I am sorry to hear that..   But you still have a sweet baby coming and that is a nice thing to look forward to... now back to arguing.

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Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:55pm
Yes August 20th  - a boy.

So silly to fight over these things, religion...how does it make any sense?

what if i was born muslim, and decided that it didnt work for me? would the same thing have happened?

well...enough ranting...back to the discussion.


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 5:01pm
Perhaps it explains why you analyze religion to death.... instead of letting your heart take over.. I don't know.  I do feel sorry for what you are going through, but Allah guides who ever he wishes and perhaps there is still hope.

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Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 5:24pm
Here's another angle:
 
algebra, suppose that someone is faced with death--his car fell over a bridge in a river and he's about to drown. and this is in your analogy where there are two gods. Which god should he call on for help? Or both?


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: algebra
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?



UmarZ:

"If there were, in the heavens
And the earth, other gods
Besides Allah, there would
Have been confusion in both!
But glory to Allah,
The Lord of the Throne:
(High is He) above
What they attribute to Him!"
              [Al-Qur’an 21:22]

For "confusion" to reign, would imply a weakness in the nature of G_D (an imperfect understanding of the intentions of the other G_D )

How can G_D forget His very nature? Is He not omniscient? Wouldnt he know it all?

G_D could not be the author of this statement, because it would mean that G_D does not know his own attributes.

Another thing - If G_D is removed completely from creation- how can G_D exist in heaven? or is heaven uncreated?


Aviatrix:

In your example it would not matter which G_D he calls out to. Or rather, how would it matter which G_D he calls out to?


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 6:47pm
Would one god save him and the other not?
 
Would he have to call on both to be saved or could just one save him? If he called on one and not the other would that be fair? What if he was saved and then started telling people that the one god had saved him but not the other one. So people would start worshiping only the one god and not the second one, thinking the second was impotent maybe or not helping them. That would cause some conflict don't you think?


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:02pm
If a ship has 2 captains, surely there'll be confusion for the crews. How hard is that to understand.
 
 


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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:10pm
http://www.welcome-back.org - One never converts to Islam, but only returns to his or her original nature
 
 


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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 12:07am
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by UmarZ


So you are assuming there is ever only 1 right answer? Given infinite knowledge and power there is only 1 way to do something? You are also referring to a situation. What about the beginning of creation? Is there only 1 perfect way to create a universe? Is it reasonable to assume that 2 all powerful all knowledgeable beings would want to create the exact same universes?

I know I am using human terms but since we don't have other terms to use, do you think a god does not have any kind of emotion or personality? Nothing that would make him distinct from another being that had the same characteristics in terms of power and knowledge. That seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


There is no assumption here UmarZ, there can only ever be 'one' perfect answer.


That's an awfully big assumption. You are trying to convince us that there could be 2 all powerful, all knowing gods but want to limit every situation to one perfect answer? Why?

Originally posted by algebra


 To use your computer analogy, the universe is a closed system to G_D(s), they have perfect knowledge of it from start to end. Hence no matter how they approach it the perfect answer will always be the same.


OK so using another computer analogy, if you and I are given the exact same specs to write a program, and lets assume the specs are perfect in detail and describe exactly what needs to be done. Couldn't we each come up with a different way to accomplish that? Couldn't both approaches be equally efficient and equally correct without the programs we create being exactly the same?

Originally posted by algebra


Originally posted by Umarz



Right you can't use infinity in math because its not a real number.

OK, take the mortality of the proposed gods out of it. Does it makes sense that there can be more than one being that is infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of a second god mean they are not infinitely powerful? If one god created something and the other wanted to destroy it. If the one cannot destroy it how can he be infinitely powerful? If one cannot protect it how can he be infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of more than 1 put a limit on the power of one or both of them?


Why should it be a limit? why can you not have 2 infinitely powerful beings?

This is the exact same question i posed to amy.


I think I explained that. How can 2 infinitely powerful beings exists. The very nature of 2 beings means 1 must be more powerful than the other or they are both limited by the fact that they can not affect each other or each or each others creations or do something contrary to the others will. How can that not be a limit?

Originally posted by algebra


Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?


I will search for this and post it.


Originally posted by Umarz



That is actually not a hard question. Allah exists outside of his creation and he can always affect it. Allah can create something so heavy nothing in creation can lift it. But he will always be able to move, destroy whatever that object because it is his creation. And what is weight? Weight is a part of the system Allah created, it is based on mass and gravity, which are all part of Allah's creation. Without these things the object weight is meaningless.



You have not answered the question, you have only shown me  - like I showed you with the mortality question - that the question itself is incorrect.

I have a follow up question to this one though - if G_D is outside of creation and G_D is in heaven.

How can G_D be contained by heaven? For that matter G_D sitting on his throne as mentioned in the quran - is the throne created ? or not?


I did answer the question. Allah can not create something so heavy he can not move it. That is not a limit of his power that shows the extent of his power because no matter how large he makes it, so large we couldn't even begin to possibly fathom it, he can always affect it, move it, destroy it

Allah is not in heaven, he is above it and he does not sit on his throne he is above it.

It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne (Qur'an 13:2)

His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth (From ayat al Kursi 2:255)

So his Kursi (footstool) is over the heavens and he is over his throne.


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 12:17am
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?



UmarZ:

"If there were, in the heavens
And the earth, other gods
Besides Allah, there would
Have been confusion in both!
But glory to Allah,
The Lord of the Throne:
(High is He) above
What they attribute to Him!"
              [Al-Qur’an 21:22]

For "confusion" to reign, would imply a weakness in the nature of G_D (an imperfect understanding of the intentions of the other G_D )

How can G_D forget His very nature? Is He not omniscient? Wouldnt he know it all?


 The translations I looked up for this verse all say "they would have both been ruined" in place of the line about confusion.

You are making a jump here that I don't get. Allah's attributes are all based on his oneness so saying those attributes apply in a situation of mulitple gods is a leap. It is saying that had there been other Gods in heaven and earth it would have caused ruin in both. Allah is disputing your assertion that mutliple Gods would all have the same purpose, goal, plan, etc and no difference would ever arise which I still contend is a huge leap of faith.

Originally posted by algebra


G_D could not be the author of this statement, because it would mean that G_D does not know his own attributes.

Another thing - If G_D is removed completely from creation- how can G_D exist in heaven? or is heaven uncreated?


Answered in my other reply, he is not in heaven, he is above it as it says in the Qur'an and multiple ahadith.




Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 9:37am
How can any of you even try to describe the ability or inability of 2 gods who work together?
Any attempt to do so is ludicrous.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 4:31pm

Ludicrous because the existence of 2 gods is entirely illogical, because there must only be One, and He as revealed Himself to us?

Or some other reason?


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 8:47pm

Ludicrous because any example we would use would be from an entirely human perspective...2 gods working together would not and could not, work together like 2 human beings, provided the 2 gods co-existed at all.

I'm more inclined to believe in the idea of one god, if any at all; but again...this is from the perspective of a human being; which is all i, and consequently we, have to work with


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: amoxoxoma
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by algebra

The question that begs asking about the trinity is this.

What defines one G_D?

Can one G_D be defined as - One mind, one purpose?

Is this what christian scripture says?  perhaps a christian can give us his input.
 
Relevant scriptures from a website regarding Biblical Panentheism found here
 
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php#mystic - http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php#mystic
 
The Bible on the Divine Presence:

In Christ were created all things in heaven and on earth
everything visible and everything invisible.... Before anything was created, he existed, and he holds all things in unity. Col. 1-15-17

...the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him.
2 Chr. 2:6 KJV

The heavens declare the glory of God,
the vault of heaven proclaims his handiwork;
day discourses of it to day,
night to night hands on the knowledge. Ps. 19.1-2

Deep is calling to to deep as your cataracts roar;
All your waves, your breakers have rolled over me. Ps. 42.7

Where could I go to escape your spirit?
Where could I flee from your presence?
If I climb the heavens, you are there,
there too, if I lie in Sheol.
If I flew to the point of sunrise, or westward across the sea
your hand would still be guiding me, your right hand holding me.
Ps. 139.7-10

We could say much more and still fall short; to put it concisely, "He is all."
Sir. 43.27

Do I not fill heaven and earth? It is Yahweh who speaks. Jer. 23.24

Look at the birds in the sky. They do not toil or reap or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. ... And why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers growing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his regalia was robed like one of these. Mt. 5.26,28-29

Through him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through him. All that came to be had life in him and that life was the light of men, a light that shines in the dark, a light that darkness could not overpower. Jn. 1.2-5

The bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world...I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never be hungry. Jn.6.33,36

In him we live, and move, and have our being.... "We are his offspring." Acts 17.28 NIV

For from him, and through him and to him are all things. Rm. 8.36 NIV

There is one God who is father of all, over all, through all and within all. Eph. 4.6

God is love, and anyone who lives in love, lives in God, and God in him. —1 Jn. 4.16

God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1 Jn. 1.5

... 

Most great truths of Christian faith, and perhaps most great truths, period, are expressed as paradox. God is completely One, and yet, Triune and Infinite. Jesus is fully and completely human, but fully divine, as well. Panentheism presents another one: God is completely transcendent, and yet, immanent throughout his Creation. Like the mysteries of Trinity and Incarnation, panentheism is an ancient theological realization.

The Greek Church Fathers referred to the transcendence of God as God's "essence" (ousia) and the immanence of God as his "energies" (energeia). In 553, at the Second Council of Constantinople, the universal Church proclaimed a panentheistic vision of the Trinity, developed from St. Paul's writing in Ephesians: "There is One God and Father from whom all things are, one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are." God is in all things, for they spring from him, and all things are in God, for they subsist in him, yet he transcends all as well as emanates in all.

...

No view of God is larger than the panentheistic view. All other theisms (deism, theism, polytheism, animism, pantheism, atheism) are fragmented theologies compared to panentheism. This is the ground for an inexhaustible faith-that God is present right now, in every cell of our bodies, in every beat of our hearts, in every person, in every star, in every loving thought, birthing every particle of every atom of the entire Creation into a constant stream of existence, the invisible Nothing and Nowhere that brings forth Everything and Everywhere. God in all things and all things in God invites wonder...

I acknowledge this is a cut/paste from another website. I can't put it any better in my own words, but if the admin feels the cut/past is too long I will edit the post. 
 
In Sufism there is a very similar idea - Wahdat-ul-Wujood :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_metaphysics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_metaphysics


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The more deeply we are our true selves, the less self is in us.
Meister Eckhart


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Salam

Good grief... why is this so difficult to understand?  Here is a description of the Islamic concept of God.  Is there anything here that does not fall under the category of 'logical' ???

  • God, and God alone, created the universe and everything in it.
  • God is the sustainer and maintainer of the universe.
  • God is the absolute controller of the universe and all actions occurring within it.
  • God has complete power over all things.
  • God is not dependent on anyone or anything, whereas everyone and everything is dependent on Him.
  • God does not have a "family" : no wife, no children, no parents.
  • There is nothing like God.
  • God is transcendent above His creation.
  • God cannot be manifested in any of his creation.
  • God does not become incarnate in any of his creation.
  • God is the only being who can hear our prayers.
  • God is the only being who has the power to answer our prayers, since He is the only one who can control the actions of the universe and of everything within it.
  • God is the only entity who deserves to be worshipped.
  • Humans do not need any intercessor or intervener between themselves and God when worshipping or praying to Him, but should turn directly to God.


Ummm, how about all of the above.
The last thing that any religion would be, is logical.  I'm well aware that you think it is, but then, a racist thinks that his hatred of another race is just as logical...in both cases one would be wrong.
However, religion being an illogical thing does not dictate whether a god truly exists.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 1:33am
Originally posted by hamayoun

The point of the thread is to show, contrary to bayleaf's claim, that when people leave Christianity for Islam, the #1 reason is because the concept of God in Islam is much more logical and far less confusing than that in Christianity.


I would have to agree with hamayoun....
that the reason for Christians to leave Christianity to join Islam.......
is because of their concept of God is illogical and/or confusing........
which concept about God is.....
THE TRINITY THEORY.

I have heard this over and over again. 

However, one point I'd like to reiterate.....is that not all Christians are trinitarians.  If a Christian has a problem with the trinity theory....that person is a member of the wrong church....for not all Christian churches teach the Trinity theory.








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