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Coincidence ?

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
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URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22454
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Topic: Coincidence ?
Posted By: desertdude
Subject: Coincidence ?
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:38pm
 I came upon an documentry I was watching recently which got me thinking and did some research as to what it has to say might be true or not .So after some online research This is what I found ,Actually this all was started by the thread by Giovani why muslims hate paul which in turn could have been started by my thread "I was reading recently ".(I know its getting a but complicated now ,so i'll cut to the chase and get right to it )

 I first came across this when I was reading about paul and how he had seamingly mixed pagan ideas into chirstianity and then again it was brought up by this certain Documentry I recently watched... (excuse me ppl I'm bout to do a huge cut n paste job ,I hardly do so i should be forgiven )

Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Conception: By a virgin. There is some doubt about this matter By a virgin.
Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).
Mother: Meri. Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). Joseph.
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.
Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.
Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother.
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solistice(typically DEC-21). Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.
Birth announcement: By angels. By angels.
Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds.
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men.
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual,  when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.
Age at the ritual: 12 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.
Age at baptism: 30. 30.
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.
Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.
Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples. Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.
Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father,  from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.
Method of death By crucifixion. By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.
Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.


There are also quite a lot of similarites among other ancient Gods like the greek god attis of frygian,The greek God Dionysus,Mithra of persia but Horus seems to match the biblical jesus point for point .

Now I leave it up to you ( the reader ) to come up with your own conclusion .



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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen



Replies:
Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:38pm

 Hi DD

 I've heard this theory before, though has been thoroughly debunked. 
 
 Much of whats presented in the table above under Jesus is also held by Muslims such as Born of Virgin, mother by the name of Mary, Joseph as His father figure, Gabriel the Angel visiting Mary.
 Though i think you'll find that much of what is claimed under Horus is fiction for purpose. Which makes me wonder how far some Muslims will go cutting their own nose to spite their own face when posting things which present heretical ideas to their own faith as well as the Christian faith purely because they see it as justifying the argument for corruption of scripture. Some even still cling to the gospel of Barnabus when even it doesn't fit squarely with Islam, ohh but it takes a swipe at the gospels so that will be suffice. What logic is that ?To suggest the above is true, is not only to negate Jesus as the Messiah which Islam teaches, but indirectly imply's that the concept of the Messiah belongs to Egyptian mythology and nothing more. So am i to assume you've abandoned your Islamic roots in favour of the mystery religions ?
 
 I see you never provided reffrences. However please take the time to read http://bringyou.to/apologetics/HORUS.htm - here  for a better understanding backed by impeccable sources.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:46pm
Was the documentary called The God That Wasn't There? I enjoyed that film, even though it had a bit of an emotional tone to it and wasn't as evenhanded as it could have been.

I'm sure I'll offend nearly everyone here with the following, and I'll apologize in advance.

When I was a student, I spent hundreds of hours in various libraries, attempting to reconcile the story of Jesus in the Christian Bible and Book of Mormon with reality. The conclusion I came to was that no such person ever likely existed as a historical character.

This does not mean that I'm sure that Jesus did not exist. Anything is possible. This just means that there's no evidence suggesting he did, and I'm extremely skeptical.

I do love many aspects of the literary character which is Jesus Christ (saw). He teaches a lot of great lessons.

If I have faith today, it's the same sort of faith that the great Muslim philosopher ibn-Sina referred to when he wrote: thought brings about a generality of forms. That can be translated any number of ways, but I apply it (in this specific case) to mean that contemplating G-d is ultimately fruitless. If we are to spend our time thinking about Him, we will inevitably generalize Him, project our human qualities upon Him, and lower Him to our level in the process. It's easy to disprove the existence of something you can anthropomorphize.

I am grateful to G-d, even though, like ibn-Sina, I can not hope to understand Him. It's enough to know that I'm here, I'm in good health, having already enjoyed 30+ years of wonderful life on this Earth. What or who He is, and whether or not He exists is irrelevant in this context. Belief in something that the human mind can probably never comprehend is a waste of time. I thank Him regardless. Being alive is miracle enough.

Muslim philosophy is a wonderful thing, ain't it? For the first time in my life I can say: G-d is great!


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Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 9:37pm

DUPE Post .. sorry



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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Was the documentary called The God That Wasn't There? I enjoyed that film, even though it had a bit of an emotional tone to it and wasn't as evenhanded as it could have been.

I'm sure I'll offend nearly everyone here with the following, and I'll apologize in advance.

When I was a student, I spent hundreds of hours in various libraries, attempting to reconcile the story of Jesus in the Christian Bible and Book of Mormon with reality. The conclusion I came to was that no such person ever likely existed as a historical character.

This does not mean that I'm sure that Jesus did not exist. Anything is possible. This just means that there's no evidence suggesting he did, and I'm extremely skeptical.

I do love many aspects of the literary character which is Jesus Christ (saw). He teaches a lot of great lessons.

If I have faith today, it's the same sort of faith that the great Muslim philosopher ibn-Sina referred to when he wrote: thought brings about a generality of forms. That can be translated any number of ways, but I apply it (in this specific case) to mean that contemplating G-d is ultimately fruitless. If we are to spend our time thinking about Him, we will inevitably generalize Him, project our human qualities upon Him, and lower Him to our level in the process. It's easy to disprove the existence of something you can anthropomorphize.

I am grateful to G-d, even though, like ibn-Sina, I can not hope to understand Him. It's enough to know that I'm here, I'm in good health, having already enjoyed 30+ years of wonderful life on this Earth. What or who He is, and whether or not He exists is irrelevant in this context. Belief in something that the human mind can probably never comprehend is a waste of time. I thank Him regardless. Being alive is miracle enough.

Muslim philosophy is a wonderful thing, ain't it? For the first time in my life I can say: G-d is great!
 
 
 
See http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm - here for some non-biblical accounts of Jesus.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:28pm
Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
 
 
 If indeed they were true. Or are you an apostate from Islam also ?


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:45pm
Whats that supposed to mean Damo?

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Whats that supposed to mean Damo?
 
 Hi Hamayoun..
 
 I don't say it lightly.
 
  DD says in his post "So after some online research This is what I found"
   He provides ZERO sources. Man i could do some online research and post a thread which claims the earth is still flat.
 
 But that aside, i checked up on the claims in the table, and found that on the whole almost ALL the claims made about Horus are completey bogus. My link in my initial post provides data which is supported by the following sources and thoroughly debunks the whole Horus v Christ nonesense.
  Forgive the paste job.. But i feel the source list supporting my link  is something which can't be overlooked when something so profound is portrayed as reliable above :
  • The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian gods and goddesses by George Hart (Routledge, 2005)
  • Dictionary of Ancient Egypt edited by Toby Wilkinson (Thames & Hudson, 2005)
  • Gods and Men in Egypt, 3000 BCE to 395 CE by F. Dunand and C. Zivie-Coche (Cornell Univ Press, 2004)
  • The Complete gods and goddesses of Ancient Egypt by Richard H. Wilkinson (Thames & Hudson, 2003)
  • Handbook of Egyptian Mythology by Geraldine Pinch (Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO, 2002)
  • The Ancient Gods Speak: A Guide to Egyptian Religion edited by Donald B. Redford (Oxford Univ Press, 2002)
  • The Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt edited by Margaret Bunson (Oxford: Facts of File, 1991, 2002 revised)
  • The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt edited by Donald B. Redford (Oxford University Press, 2001)
  • The gods of Egypt by Claude Traunecker, trans by David Lorton (Cornell University Press, 2001)
  • Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt by Jan Assmann, trans by David Lorton (Cornell Univ Press, 2001)
  • The Great Goddesses of Egypt by Barbara S. Lesko (Univ of OK Press, 1999)
  • Gods, Priests, and Men: Studies in the Religion of Pharaonic Egypt by Aylward M. Blackman, compiled/edited by Alan B. Lloyd (Kegan Paul Intl, 1998)
  • Egyptian Religion by Siegfried Morenz, trans by Ann E. Keep (Cornell Univ Press, 1992, orig 1960)
  • The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Egypt: an illustrated history by Manfred Lurker, trans by Barbard Cumming (Thames and Hudson, 1980)
  • Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt by R.T. Rundle Clark (Thames & Hudson, paperback 1978, 1993)
  • The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts in 3 volumes, edited by R.O. Faulkner (Aris and Phillips, 1973, 1978)
  • The gods of the Egyptians by E. A. Wallis Budge (Dover Publications, 1969), 2 volumes

   Now to suggest what DD provided may be true, is no different to suggesting that the Messiah Jesus, spoken of in the Quran is nothing more than Egyption mythology, which logically leads to the conclusion that Quran's roots stem from there also by association with Christ's legitamacy as the Quran has Him as  genuine Prophet of God. He cannot be a Prophet of God, and at the same time be associated with Mythology of ANY kind. Which is why i say to even suggest such is true is incompatable with Islam as it is to Christianity at the very least. At worst a very grave Heresy indeed.

 So as DD says "I leave it up to you ( the reader ) to come up with your own conclusion .


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:37pm
I mean why are you calling Jamilah an apostate?

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:44pm
Hi Damo808,

I appreciate your response.

Originally posted by Damo808

See http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm - here for some non-biblical accounts of Jesus.


Thank you very much for the web page. I read it in its entirety. I've also read the originals (in my youth I was a big classics fan, and I can still read Latin and Greek, albeit slowly and with a grammar). Tacitus and Pliny the Younger were not writing about a historical Jesus, but about early Christians, and he was mentioned in that context.

I found it interesting that the site put a Talmud reference into the mix. The author of the site doesn't seem to realize that the Talmud has a wide variety of references to Jesus, including some which acknowledge that he didn't exist literally.

Talmud itself is not a historical work. It is a collection of debates authored by various Jewish scholars, compiled over the course of centuries. The author will be interested to note that it is also not a single book. It's very large, and might be compared to a set of encyclopedias. My wife was born into a Jewish family and we have a set in our library.

Josephus' account has been disputed and it is widely believed to be a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
In 93, the Jewish historian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus - Josephus published his work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews - Antiquities of the Jews . The extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources, even the recently recovered Arabic version, contain two passages about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus - Jesus . The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. Its authenticity has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This conclusion was questioned in the 20th century and the intellectual controversy will probably never be resolved. The other passage mentions Jesus as the brother of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just - James , also known as James the Just. The authenticity of this latter passage has been disputed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Sch%C3%BCrer - Emil Schürer as well by several recent popular writers.

Even if it wasn't, Josephus never claimed to have met Jesus. He was simply passing on pieces of the story as he heard it from early Christians, and he only mentioned him in passing, in only two places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeH49SVPj8I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq0q4k_o11U&feature=related

These are clips from one of the popular films which explores the matter further.

I have a lot of respect for Christians, and I'm sure we can agree to disagree on the matter. In any event, this might help clarify the historical -vs- spiritual dichotomy which exists whenever we examine Jesus' life.

Peace,

Yishmael


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Posted By: MedGirl
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
 
 
 If indeed they were true. Or are you an apostate from Islam also ?

Jamilah is a Muslim.


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Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 1:22am

My impression of the original table there is that the accounts about Horus were just made up. I don't know if Damo was able to prove that or not; I don't have proof but that is the impression I get from reading it.

Frankly, I wouldn't believe it.
 
Moreover, I don't think Paul is attributed with the story about Jesus's birth, or any real stories about his life, so it doesn't make sense to blame Paul for the entirety of all that. Besides, Muslims believe in a lot of it too.


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:41am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

My impression of the original table there is that the accounts about Horus were just made up. I don't know if Damo was able to prove that or not; I don't have proof but that is the impression I get from reading it.

Frankly, I wouldn't believe it.
 
Moreover, I don't think Paul is attributed with the story about Jesus's birth, or any real stories about his life, so it doesn't make sense to blame Paul for the entirety of all that. Besides, Muslims believe in a lot of it too.
 
 
 Hi Amy... correct you are in your suspicions on the table above. In the link i provided, each point the table makes in about Horus is completely blown away probably halfway down the page. I felt it nessessary to paste the sources as they come from research done by major universtities rather than just from a Christian source offering a rebuttal.
 
Originally posted by hamayoun

I mean why are you calling Jamilah an apostate?
 
 
 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless). She as a Muslim is free to believe whatever she wishes, and i respect that. But i respect her enough also to point out that the table  is as detrimental to Islam as it is to Christianity. Ofcourse the table falsely leans more on the similarities between the Christian account of Jesus rather than the Islamic account. But both faiths agree on some accounts regarding Christ, and those are contained in the table also. And to be honest i'm surprised no mods have locked up the thread as the claims made - true or not have absolutely no sources in which to verify where this fantasy came from. .. Now... if the shoe was on the other foot so to speak regarding Mohammud or Islam and slated either without ANY source whatsoever it would have been seized upon in minutes and closed. And rightly so 
 
 
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:17am
Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Damo808,

I appreciate your response.

Originally posted by Damo808

See http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm - here for some non-biblical accounts of Jesus.


Thank you very much for the web page. I read it in its entirety. I've also read the originals (in my youth I was a big classics fan, and I can still read Latin and Greek, albeit slowly and with a grammar). Tacitus and Pliny the Younger were not writing about a historical Jesus, but about early Christians, and he was mentioned in that context.

I found it interesting that the site put a Talmud reference into the mix. The author of the site doesn't seem to realize that the Talmud has a wide variety of references to Jesus, including some which acknowledge that he didn't exist literally.

Talmud itself is not a historical work. It is a collection of debates authored by various Jewish scholars, compiled over the course of centuries. The author will be interested to note that it is also not a single book. It's very large, and might be compared to a set of encyclopedias. My wife was born into a Jewish family and we have a set in our library.

Josephus' account has been disputed and it is widely believed to be a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
In 93, the Jewish historian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus - Josephus published his work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews - Antiquities of the Jews . The extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources, even the recently recovered Arabic version, contain two passages about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus - Jesus . The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. Its authenticity has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This conclusion was questioned in the 20th century and the intellectual controversy will probably never be resolved. The other passage mentions Jesus as the brother of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just - James , also known as James the Just. The authenticity of this latter passage has been disputed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Sch%C3%BCrer - Emil Schürer as well by several recent popular writers.

Even if it wasn't, Josephus never claimed to have met Jesus. He was simply passing on pieces of the story as he heard it from early Christians, and he only mentioned him in passing, in only two places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeH49SVPj8I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq0q4k_o11U&feature=related

These are clips from one of the popular films which explores the matter further.

I have a lot of respect for Christians, and I'm sure we can agree to disagree on the matter. In any event, this might help clarify the historical -vs- spiritual dichotomy which exists whenever we examine Jesus' life.

Peace,

Yishmael
 
 Hi Yishmael
  The link i provided does point out that the accounts of Josephus are a point of contention among historians, however there is much also that weighs in its favour. And there is still Tacitus, Thallus, Pliny and Lucian all of whom were essentially pagans. That aside.. i can respect and understand the view of those who view take a sceptical view of these accounts as its not by these alone Christians stake their faith. 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Giovanni
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:08am
  Great links Damo, this topic is typical of DD trying hard to discredit Christianity, thing is he normally does not think things thru, and tends to chop his own legs off.  For if Jesus is a copycat god as he is insinuating, well that throws a big monkey wrench into Islams sacred Qu'ran.

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May the Love of God be With you.


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:21am
 First of all I'm not saying jesus didnt exisit or his virgin birth and his miracles didnt happen .For me being a Muslim it is an article of faith for me to recognise and believe in jesus.

 But the other similarities between the biblical jesus and other pagan gods of the past Including Horus , Attis of phrygia ,Mithra of persia and dionysus including birthdates ,baptization in rivers ,crucifixtion or violent deaths,betrayal, an approximate "dead time " of three days ,resurection ,sharing titles like son of god ,alpha and omega ,lamb of god among many and accesion to heaven. Only makes one think that maybe,just maybe some one to make christianity more platable to many ,seeing some similarites in jesus and pagan gods ,incorporated the other factors into the life of jesus .

 This is just my own theory and I'm allowed to have an opinion arn't I .I could be right but then again could be wrong .

 Like I said I leave it up to you to do your own research and come up with your own conclusions regarding this .

 And it is also not uncommon to have many chirstians attribute Paganism with Islam .I have read most of them and done my own reasearch and come to my own conclusions .

 As for references You have the worlds biggest information resource at your fingertips do your research as any info posted on the internet is always somewhat baised but also does not mean its does not have any truth in it also.And its your job to sift thur the wheat from the chaff .You have to check up from multiple sources and try to form your own opinion.As i can find many sites backing up any claim I choose to make .Does'nt mean just so X number of sites back up what I say is right .

 As for josephus there is still the debate going on with out any conclusion as to wheter its a forgery or not .
 


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:46am
 Dude Damo contarary to ur beliefs i'm not in the biz of one up manship .I just like to share to what I come across most of it not on pourpose .I came up on this horus theory on a article I was reading about on Paul .Then again in the documentry Zeitgeist .And I totally dont agree with the first part of the documentry about Jesus where this theory is also mentioned.

 This sparked my intrest and I decided to look it up and found that there is "some" truth to the link on paganistic ( Is there such a word ? ) gods and the biblical jesus .All in all it could be a conicidence but then again ?.I am willing to admit I could be totally wrong as I am not authority on anything .But like to explore different viewpoints .

 Like I said I am entitled to my own opinion and I'm just sharing it ppl here .This is neither doctrine or absolute conclusion.

 Just like the majority of chirstian and non muslims believe that Islam is religon made up by One person who lifted a lot of what he "wrote" from other scriptures .

 Some even express that idea openly here .

 Take a chill pill bro and learn to relax a little.Life is too short to go thru it being upset all the time


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:00am
Thanks guys, for such an interesting discussion.

Originally posted by Giovanni

...if Jesus is a copycat god as he is insinuating, well that throws a big monkey wrench into Islams sacred Qu'ran.


Muslims don't seem to have the sorts of problems with literalism that Christians do.

We can't question the existence of Muhammad as a historical character, because there are hundreds of disinterested sources which verify his existence. We can question certain things about his story. What I've found (and I've been a little bit surprised about this) is that Muslims are much more open to various possibilities, and they tend to be able to agree to disagree about whether this or that actually happened.

I'm referring specifically to a debate I saw on the internet a few weeks ago. It had to do with the night journey (for those that don't know, that's where Muhammad miraculously flew to Jerusalem, and from there ascended to heaven to pray with Moses and Jesus). One party insisted that it was a literal account of something that happened in the physical world. The others pointed to sources (one of Muhammad's wives) who suggested that he remained in his tent physically, and these people argued that the journey was an allusion to a psychological process.

Despite the disagreement, none of the parties got personal, and nobody called anyone else an apostate or unbeliever. It was a vigorous but decent argument and it looked like everyone remained friends despite the different interpretations of the narrative.

Does Christ really need verification by historians? If I brought back solid proof that he was nothing more than a character in a story, would it make him any less real? If he's real to you, then that should be all that matters. The power of the story (be it the story of Jesus or the night journey) is the real, transformative power people find in deconstructing it, and using the underlying lessons to better themselves and the world they live in.

I don't believe Jesus is a historical figure (admittedly I might be wrong, and that's just my own personal conclusion) but he's real to me nonetheless.

In conclusion, I'll apologize for any offense I've given (none was intended, but it certainly might have happened). I hope that anyone who might have spoken hastily will apologize and retract any offense he might have given to another, so that we can all move on with no hard feelings.

I'm convinced that the prophets (neither Jesus nor Muhammad) would not want their stories to put friends at odds with one another. Apostasy is something only G-d can declare, because He alone knows our thoughts. And G-d knows best...

Yishmael


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Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:11am
Originally posted by desertdude

 First of all I'm not saying jesus didnt exisit or his virgin birth and his miracles didnt happen .For me being a Muslim it is an article of faith for me to recognise and believe in jesus.

 But the other similarities between the biblical jesus and other pagan gods of the past Including Horus , Attis of phrygia ,Mithra of persia and dionysus including birthdates ,baptization in rivers ,crucifixtion or violent deaths,betrayal, an approximate "dead time " of three days ,resurection ,sharing titles like son of god ,alpha and omega ,lamb of god among many and accesion to heaven. Only makes one think that maybe,just maybe some one to make christianity more platable to many ,seeing some similarites in jesus and pagan gods ,incorporated the other factors into the life of jesus .

 This is just my own theory and I'm allowed to have an opinion arn't I .I could be right but then again could be wrong .

 Like I said I leave it up to you to do your own research and come up with your own conclusions regarding this .

 And it is also not uncommon to have many chirstians attribute Paganism with Islam .I have read most of them and done my own reasearch and come to my own conclusions .

 As for references You have the worlds biggest information resource at your fingertips do your research as any info posted on the internet is always somewhat baised but also does not mean its does not have any truth in it also.And its your job to sift thur the wheat from the chaff .You have to check up from multiple sources and try to form your own opinion.As i can find many sites backing up any claim I choose to make .Does'nt mean just so X number of sites back up what I say is right .

 As for josephus there is still the debate going on with out any conclusion as to wheter its a forgery or not .
 
 
 DD the claims you mentioned, and which i have highlighted in bold above those " other similarities" have already been proven to be bogus in the link, which you obviously have paid absolutely no attention to so please if you want to continue claiming the earth is flat yes your entiteled to express your theory... but i think its only fair , and is generally expected of everyone on here to back up their claims by providing sources for their opinion. Yes we have the words largest database at our fingertips, however if someone on here was to suggest a highly revered prophet to some on here were infact a martian, providing absolutely zero justification for presenting such an idea you can see how this would open the floodgates for any amount of rediculous claims presented from both sides without the need to justify whats said. So sorry its not my job to separate the wheat from the chaff,from a gazzillion web pages out there its your job to provide a source at least for your point of view, then i may argue whether what your using as your source is wheat or chaff and vice versa.  
 
Originally posted by desertdude

 Dude Damo contarary to ur beliefs i'm not in the biz of one up manship .I just like to share to what I come across most of it not on pourpose .I came up on this horus theory on a article I was reading about on Paul .Then again in the documentry Zeitgeist .And I totally dont agree with the first part of the documentry about Jesus where this theory is also mentioned.

 This sparked my intrest and I decided to look it up and found that there is "some" truth to the link on paganistic ( Is there such a word ? ) gods and the biblical jesus .All in all it could be a conicidence but then again ?.I am willing to admit I could be totally wrong as I am not authority on anything .But like to explore different viewpoints .

 Like I said I am entitled to my own opinion and I'm just sharing it ppl here .This is neither doctrine or absolute conclusion.

 Just like the majority of chirstian and non muslims believe that Islam is religon made up by One person who lifted a lot of what he "wrote" from other scriptures .

 Some even express that idea openly here .

 Take a chill pill bro and learn to relax a little.Life is too short to go thru it being upset all the time
 
 
 No chill pill required DD. On the contrary i now regard you as light entertainment.
 
 True there have been and will continue to be threads and posts on here which can be regarded as offensive to both sides. But i think most Muslims on here as well as Christians can accept whats said IF they can justify what they say by relevent and credible sources.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless).

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two

So saying something is interesting is "Practically backing the table as legitimate?

How do you know she wasn't just replying to the initial post without having read your follow up yet (which is the case)? How do you know what is in her heart, what her intentions are? That is the problem with throwing out blind accusations, because only Allah knows someones intentions, especially when all they say is "its interesting". Something can be interesting to someone for any number of reasons.



Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by Damo808

 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless).

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two

So saying something is interesting is "Practically backing the table as legitimate?

How do you know she wasn't just replying to the initial post without having read your follow up yet (which is the case)? How do you know what is in her heart, what her intentions are? That is the problem with throwing out blind accusations, because only Allah knows someones intentions, especially when all they say is "its interesting". Something can be interesting to someone for any number of reasons.

 
"its very interesting to see the similarities between the two"
 
 IF indeed they were true....I wrote
 
 If you actually read what i wrote, i posed the question to her, admittedly in a retorical manner. Look... slate me if it makes you happy while your own makes a mockery of Islam as well as Christianity by the absurdity of the thread claim.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by Damo808

 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless).

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
So saying something is interesting is "Practically backing the table as legitimate?

How do you know she wasn't just replying to the initial post without having read your follow up yet (which is the case)? How do you know what is in her heart, what her intentions are? That is the problem with throwing out blind accusations, because only Allah knows someones intentions, especially when all they say is "its interesting". Something can be interesting to someone for any number of reasons.

 
"its very interesting to see the similarities between the two"
 
 IF indeed they were true....I wrote
 
 If you actually read what i wrote, i posed the question to her, admittedly in a retorical manner. Look... slate me if it makes you happy while your own makes a mockery of Islam as well as Christianity by the absurdity of the thread claim.


Damo

I didn't respond because I was too upset when I read it and didn't want to say something obnoxious (something you seem to have no problem with).  I can find lots of things interesting. Just today I heard a story on NPR that I found interesting... thats all, it was INTERESTING.  You may not know or care to know but accusing a Muslim  of being an apostate is very serious.  And I think its even a violation of the TOS of this forum, but I could be wrong.

At this point I would ask you to apologize for saying such a horrible thing to someone you don't even know.  Take a step down from your self made pedestal and admit that you were out of  line.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:42pm
Damo tsk tsk 


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:40pm

 Hey Jamilahz... i take it back... and i am truly sorry ... No sarcasm here ok

 The way i read it at the time... i assumed you bought DD's Theory and who knows maybe you still do which i will take no business in, what you do is your own thing so for that again i appologise. However as much as i may dis-agree with Islam my comment was rather to... yes get your back up... so that maybe then you'd realise and do a double take on what was really behind the smoke and mirrors of DD's coy little table.  One of your very own rolled out a thread which  not just made a mockery of what i believe in , but what you do also, i couldn't make sense of that. My comment was sarcastic and rhetorical and no i didn't think for a minute you seriously were an apostate, hence the irony of the remark.
 
 Still... i'm surprised at the reaction of other Muslims in this thread no ... not at me... but their apparent indifference to what DD's table means for Islam, the Quran, and Mohammud. All that goes down also in that table.
 
Originally posted by desertdude

Damo tsk tsk 
 
 
  The shame's on you bro... not me.. At least i can put my hands up to offending others... You won't do it even when it offends the Almighty.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:43pm
Hey Damo,

Have you heard of the demythologization movement? I guess Thomas Jefferson might be considered a founder (one of many), but it apparently held some sway with a few prominent Jesuit scholars in the early 20th century. Apparently Catholic intellectuals wanted to get away from the idea that Jesus was a historical character, and simply wanted to concentrate on the underlying messages his story promotes. It'd be an interesting topic to discuss here sometime.

Peace,

Yishmael


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Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:09pm
 
 
 Hey Yishmael... 
 
I could be wrong but wasn't Jefferson a Deist ?
 
 As far as a demythologization movement is concerened, hell i believe that idea has been fermenting and brewing for a long long time, exactly how long is anyone's guess. But then we could go into the Illuminati, the Rosicrucian's, hell even some elements of Masonry. Its decifering the truth from the fiction thats difficult, and i'm not well read enough to know how to go about that. In MOHO, there just simply is no way prove His non-existence, and if their was, we Christians would not be present in this forum. I feel the onus is on those who support the idea He didn't exist to prove so.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:42pm
Damo sez:

I could be wrong but wasn't Jefferson a Deist ?

Something like that. He liked Jesus though, and re-wrote part of the New Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

I feel the onus is on those who support the idea He didn't exist to prove so.

It's sorta impossible to prove something didn't happen. If I told you that space aliens kidnapped me last night, and let me do aerial tricks in their UFO, before returning me safely to earth, nobody would be able to prove I was a liar without sitting beside my bed. The burden of proof is upon the person who asserts something, to provide evidence supporting his theory.

You're wrong about one thing. I know many Christians who are able to reconcile the fact that Jesus is a mythological character and keep a measure of faith. It's a process called reconstructionism.

Reconstructionism is popular today among many Christians (and probably Muslims too) but it was originally spearheaded by a Rabbi named Mordechai Kaplan, in NYC. Aside from being an interesting guy, he was my grandfather-in-law's rabbi when he was a little boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordecai_Kaplan

Anyway, I think it's a shame people feel that their faith hangs on history. Even if he didn't exist in history, Jesus is a far cooler guy than many historical characters who did, and he's at least as real today as anyone else who once lived, and is now gone, simply because we're talking about him.

Take Care,

Yishmael

P.S.: You're a good man to apologize & retract, by the way. I respect that a lot.


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Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Damo sez:

I could be wrong but wasn't Jefferson a Deist ?

Something like that. He liked Jesus though, and re-wrote part of the New Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

I feel the onus is on those who support the idea He didn't exist to prove so.

It's sorta impossible to prove something didn't happen. If I told you that space aliens kidnapped me last night, and let me do aerial tricks in their UFO, before returning me safely to earth, nobody would be able to prove I was a liar without sitting beside my bed. The burden of proof is upon the person who asserts something, to provide evidence supporting his theory.

You're wrong about one thing. I know many Christians who are able to reconcile the fact that Jesus is a mythological character and keep a measure of faith. It's a process called reconstructionism.

Reconstructionism is popular today among many Christians (and probably Muslims too) but it was originally spearheaded by a Rabbi named Mordechai Kaplan, in NYC. Aside from being an interesting guy, he was my grandfather-in-law's rabbi when he was a little boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordecai_Kaplan

Anyway, I think it's a shame people feel that their faith hangs on history. Even if he didn't exist in history, Jesus is a far cooler guy than many historical characters who did, and he's at least as real today as anyone else who once lived, and is now gone, simply because we're talking about him.

Take Care,

Yishmael

P.S.: You're a good man to apologize & retract, by the way. I respect that a lot.
 
 Well thankyou Yishmael .
 
 Thats an interesting take you have above... 
 
 I can understand your perspective on the aliens analogy thing, however i don't think we can pigeonhole all things the same way.    The way i see it regarding the historical Jesus is that his non-existence poses more mystery than his reality. I mean how does one explain the sudden phenomenon of belief in one character by so many in such a short space of time, how does one explain the willing martyrdom by so many over a mythical character within that time.  I believe people are far easier duped by false religion now than then. People then certainly were not idiots. Who among the wealthy and prosperous at the time could have willingly wanted to be a Christian then in the beginning with everything to loose - status, heritage, wealth, honour amongst peers even their very lives  including even the lives of their immediate family in exchange for a life far removed of luxury, but of lowlyness humility and humbleness ? Can such a message sell so easily and so quickly without a spark to ignite it ?What was it that converted the gentiles, the barbarian pagan tribes to give up their hedonistic and sometimes bloodthirsty ways in exchange for one which demaned one love their enemies, turn the other cheek etc..preached to them by men un-armed alone and aparently defenceless who denied their gods to their face and yet lived. Surely they witnessed something which caused them to abandon their former ways. 
 I guess thats why religion is something which requires faith for those who do not see yet believe as the good book says.
 
 As for those christians you mentioned who believe Jesus is a Mythological character yet keep a measure of faith... Begs the question .. faith in what ? faith in a fictional character ? Like the Jedi religion ? I can see no difference. I hardly think the title of Christian is applicable here IMO. after all the litteral definition of a Christian is :  of or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ : as the http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=13403&dict=CALD - cambridge dictionary would have it . Perhaps they adopt the moral example of Jesus, but thats completely different to an actual faith. What do they believe happens beyond death ? A Christian is someone who not only believes in Jesus, but believes in every prophet mentioned previous to him in the OT also.
 
 Anyways...i'm sure you have your own reasons to believe otherwise. But i don't want to be caught in the crosshairs again by anyone else for breaking thread topic rules here. A thread on it would be your best bet to go further.
 
   


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 10:07pm
"offends the Almighty"....how ?


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 9:14am
Originally posted by desertdude

"offends the Almighty"....how ?
 
 Does the Quran not say Jesus was born of a Virgin birth ?
 
that His mother was named Mary
 
that an angel fortold His birth ?
 
that He had twelve followers 'friends' ( which your table suggests 2 were theives.. other than Judas i'm unaware of who the other traitor was)
 
that He performed Mirracles ?
 
 The five listed above are upheld in the Quran also.
 
  So if a non-Muslim, non-Christian individual puts the above claims to you and suggests that the Jesus of the Quran mirrors very much that of the myth of Horus and that the Quran had perhaps plagurized the account of Horus. Who else could you suggest they'd been mistaken with ?
 
  And as far as i'm aware, there is non else in history match these pretty distinct similarities to Jesus in the Quran in such a parrallel other than your theory regarding Horus. Unless you could can enlighten me ?


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 7:28pm
 Dude maybe u did'nt read all my posts thorughly ,Did'nt u read What I  wrote about jesus in posts here any many other threads .

 No one Is denying the virgin birth ,the miracles and the accession to heaven . Before u start ripping out your hair in a rage to flame someone on an online forum .Take the time to read what ur going to discredit.

 In your desperate attempt at self righteousness and to be a self proclaimed defender of your faith .READ what one is trying to say before u charge out the door with all cylinders firing.

 Or is this too much to ask .

 This whole thread is about a theory .Yes it could be possible that all the facts about horus are not true ,But none the less the myth exsists .Cound'nt it be remotely possible that this myth exsited at that time .As not only horus but a lot of mythlogicals gods have many things in common with the biblical jesus.To name a few Dionysus and mithra .they even share the same alleged birthday of jesus .Which we now now that it is not the actual birthday of jesus .

 If you would have taken a min extra to read ,U would know what i was putting forward was that MAYBE ( PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION HERE I SAID MAYBE I DIDNT SAY IT IS ,So I dont want a follow up flame up )That someone or a group of ppl saw the personality of the prophet jesus and decided to add spice to his character ,and to make him more than he actually was borrowed some ideas from pagan mythology and combined it with a real jesus ,to make him see more of a god like figure .

 And yes this is just my theory and I have absoutley no evidence to back it up as of now of maybe never will .But none the less it just a theory .

 I never said as u suggested that jesus is a myth as u suggest .

 Another hope for this thread was that maybe there could be a sane disscussion of wheter such a possiblity could exsit .But ofcourse all you do is just wait for something to like this to blip on ur radar and u can shoot it down ( contorary to ur beliefs I dont only post threads meant for you )


I always try to refrain from making personal remarks but some one said it very well here ,you seem to put ur self very high on ur self made pedestal ,and somehow think you are better than everyone here .And in you attempts to dole out your brand of justice u will leave no stone unturned and will say just about anything to anyone.




 


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 8:38pm
Based on the mythology articles in our encyclopedia, Horus’s mother is Isis.  Isis was married to Osiris.  The article doesn't indicate for how long they were married, but I'll assume the marriage was consummated.  After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked to pieces) except for his penis, which was tossed in a river or a lake.  Isis makes a substitute penis for him, they engage in marital relations and Horus resulted.  Little about this sounds remotely virginal.

That's as far as I've delved to this point, but the Jesus/Horus gambit doesn't sound promising.


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 9:39pm
see thats the kinda I was talking about .The facts u mentioned above also sound similar to a story about a Hindu deity I heard long time ago or maybe a combination of 2 deities.

 Almost all ancient gods have if not very some similar features.So what I was suggesting that maybe even if the facts about horus are wrong ( Although there is still debate on that ) but like today the myth about them exsist and maybe they were also present in eairlier times .And maybe some malicious group made a concoction of the real jesus with the eyptian horus and came up with a all new version of jesus ?

 Which takes me back to paul for a bit I'll qoute a passage from an article which actually is resposible for starting quite a few threads heres including this one .Now I'm not saying is 100% accurate or even true for I cannot say that .But it is also a theory which does deserves atleast some pondering

"Paul's originality lies in his conception of the death of Jesus as saving mankind from sin. Instead of seeing Jesus as a messiah of the Jewish type human saviour from political bondage he saw him as a salvation-deity whose atoning death by violence was necessary to release his devotees for immortal life. This view of Jesus' death seems to have come to Paul in his Damascus vision. Its roots lie not in Judaism, but in mystery-religion, with which Paul was acquainted in Tarsus. The violent deaths of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dionysus brought divinization to their initiates. Paul, as founder of the new Christian mystery, initiated the Eucharist, echoing the communion meal of the mystery religions. The awkward insertion of eucharistic material based on I Corinthians 11:23-26 into the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels cannot disguise this, especially as the evidence is that the Jerusalem Church did not practise the Eucharist."

 and Damo spare me the holier than thou speech this time



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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:46pm
Desert, you are taking great pains to read what you'd like to see into things, it seems.

1 Cor. 11 23-26-

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.


The assumption you make is that Paul came up with this notion before the gospel writers, who were there at the last supper? You are therefor making a rather strong indictment of the low moral character of Jesus' followers, stooping to fabricating a new element of the story based on something Paul, not one of the original twelve, said. Given the high standards Jesus held them all to, is this really likely? I mean, Jesus leaves them and they begin making up stories?


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by desertdude

 Dude maybe u did'nt read all my posts thorughly ,Did'nt u read What I  wrote about jesus in posts here any many other threads .

 No one Is denying the virgin birth ,the miracles and the accession to heaven . Before u start ripping out your hair in a rage to flame someone on an online forum .Take the time to read what ur going to discredit.

 In your desperate attempt at self righteousness and to be a self proclaimed defender of your faith .READ what one is trying to say before u charge out the door with all cylinders firing.

 Or is this too much to ask .

 This whole thread is about a theory .Yes it could be possible that all the facts about horus are not true ,But none the less the myth exsists .Cound'nt it be remotely possible that this myth exsited at that time .As not only horus but a lot of mythlogicals gods have many things in common with the biblical jesus.To name a few Dionysus and mithra .they even share the same alleged birthday of jesus .Which we now now that it is not the actual birthday of jesus .

 If you would have taken a min extra to read ,U would know what i was putting forward was that MAYBE ( PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION HERE I SAID MAYBE I DIDNT SAY IT IS ,So I dont want a follow up flame up )That someone or a group of ppl saw the personality of the prophet jesus and decided to add spice to his character ,and to make him more than he actually was borrowed some ideas from pagan mythology and combined it with a real jesus ,to make him see more of a god like figure .

 And yes this is just my theory and I have absoutley no evidence to back it up as of now of maybe never will .But none the less it just a theory .

 I never said as u suggested that jesus is a myth as u suggest .

 Another hope for this thread was that maybe there could be a sane disscussion of wheter such a possiblity could exsit .But ofcourse all you do is just wait for something to like this to blip on ur radar and u can shoot it down ( contorary to ur beliefs I dont only post threads meant for you )


I always try to refrain from making personal remarks but some one said it very well here ,you seem to put ur self very high on ur self made pedestal ,and somehow think you are better than everyone here .And in you attempts to dole out your brand of justice u will leave no stone unturned and will say just about anything to anyone.

 
 
 
  ... Sorry DD..
 
   I'm not buyin that...  You can try back peddlin all you want. In your first post you said after watching the documentary you were not sure if what was contained was true or not. THEN after some research online this is what YOU found which you omitted to say was reliable or not notibly without sources. Commenting on how it was something that Giovanni had said regarding Paul which had caused you to go so out of your way to produce the data you did .  What i can't understand is that it took me less than 2 minutes to find the article required to refute this table. How long did it take you in your research to find this table ? Being that research usually includes verification to proove something either one way or another. Can't say i hold much admiration for how you conduct your research.
 
  Further i could accept if this was just a little innocent find you thought was interesting and worth posting if you were demonstrative eslewhere of neutral posts which had no bearing on one faith or another but i don't remember any.  And i do wonder however if you'd have done the same if at its root  the table was a hit peice on Islam ?
 So please spare me the insincere wishy washy gesture of impartiality on this thread. ... And me self righteous.... hahaha... gimme a break  have i not already demonstrated that me like anyone else is at times wrong and openly appologise. Though again... you stick your head in the sand. Infact your probably the most self righteous member i've encountered on here.... and believe me that reaaaaallllly is sayin somethin.
 
 Spare you the holier than thou speach
 
  I intend to... as i already said DD - your light entertainment
 
 Ohhh look there yet another ( unspecified source) article posted by DD that he even states may not be 100% acurate, but still we have to take his and the articles word for everything else...
 Geeez.. why do i think about the Gospel of Barnabus at this kinda comment.... But wait ... i feel a huge guffaw coming .. do excuse me..


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 7:04pm
* Yawn *....wake me up when u have something useful to say ..zzzzzzzzzzzzz

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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen



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