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Forgivness of sin

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
Forum Discription: Forum for people of various faiths to discuss and inquire about different religions
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22485
Printed Date: 20 July 2019 at 12:43pm
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Topic: Forgivness of sin
Posted By: jamilahz
Subject: Forgivness of sin
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 9:20pm
Today while driving home from shopping I saw a car with a bumper sticker, it said:

1 Cross + 3 Nails = 4GVN

This got Umar and I to talking about it.  Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins.  does this mean that all sins of the past before Jesus were forgiven, and all of the sins that any believing Christian will do are forgiven?

Is it all sins or just specific ones?  Catholics confess to a priest and then do penance, do all denomination do something like that?

Just wondering.

Edit:  One other thing, was it really 3 nails?


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Replies:
Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 2:32pm
It is in fact all sins. I believe the confession to a priest is a strictly Catholic thing, though other denominations could learn from this tradition. There is something to be said for confessing out loud to someone and have forgiveness pronounced to you. On a psychological level, this practice does much good.


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 4:17pm
This is really an interesting topic.

The Mormon interpretation differs from the Christian one, in that Mormons generally believe it takes more than simple confession, apology or what have you to achieve the forgiveness of God.

In the Mormon tradition, one needs to make amends, as far as possible, for whatever wrong you do another. It's only after you repair the damage that you can hope for a spiritual resolution.

So if you stole someone's car, you would need to return it, and compensate your victim for the time he missed work and the stress of the theft also. After that, a person can move on.

Some sins can really not be amended in this life. For example, a rapist who desired atonement would not be able to make up the damage he did to his victim, no matter how much money he gave her, or how sorry he was. He would need to do all he could in this life, with the expectation that he might have other tasks to perform to work off his debt in the afterlife.

http://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Forgiveness-Spencer-W-Kimball/dp/0884944441


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Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:12pm
Thanks for the answers.  So believing that Jesus died for your sins is enough for the main stream Christian?  What about sins like murder and rape?  

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the answers.  So believing that Jesus died for your sins is enough for the main stream Christian?  What about sins like murder and rape?  
 
 Hi Jamilaz.
 
 There are no sins which cannot be forgiven, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or the Father knowingly. However there are sins which are more severe than others sure, which you've already mentioned above.. Whether one truly recieves forgiveness even from a catholic perspective in confession to a priest cannot be guaranteed.
 Speaking from the catholic perspective. When one goes and confesses to a priest, forgiveness is only attainable if the penitent is genuinely remorseful. Not only because they fear the concequences of their actions, but because they genuinely accept their guilt, and can comprehend the gravity of that which they have done. As for other Christians this same reflection of sin applys when seeking forgiveness. Simply doing the act means nothing.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 6:08pm
So even with Jesus dieing for your sins, you still need to make true repentance?

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 6:34pm
How often is confession?  What kind of penance is there?

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by jamilahz



Edit:  One other thing, was it really 3 nails?
 
Yes, 1 on each hand = 2 nails + 1 nail on both feet or angle = 3 nails.   


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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

So even with Jesus dieing for your sins, you still need to make true repentance?
 
 Jesus dying for our sins doesn't automaitically mean people can live whatever lives they desire to. Only that until He did die for our sins, there was no access to heaven, and that -that access is only available through Christ if one is worthy .
 
Originally posted by jamilahz

How often is confession?  What kind of penance is there?
 
 
  Confession is as often as you are sinful, to the extent that your not leaving it too long to become too "burdened" as to recollect the baggage you've been accumulating so to speak, so thats down to the individual, however most priests try to encourage it particularly strongly prior to Good Friday/Easter and Christmas. As for the kind of penance That really is down to the gravity of the sin. For the normal individual who tries there best in life, mostly some form of prayers generally. As to the upper end of the scale... i'm not so sure myself. as each confession is bound by a vow of silence by the priest, who knows what some mortal sins require ? I'd expect there would be some way of enquiring about that though i can't answer that right now. I'll try findin out if you wish .


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:12pm
Thanks Damo.  You said to Hamayoun that before Christ died, there was not access to heaven.  Did his death open that access to the people that came before him as well?




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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 12:44am
Originally posted by jamilahz

1 Cross + 3 Nails = 4GVN

Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins.  does this mean that all sins of the past before Jesus were forgiven, and all of the sins that any believing Christian will do are forgiven?

Is it all sins or just specific ones?  Catholics confess to a priest and then do penance, do all denomination do something like that?

One other thing, was it really 3 nails?
 
This is one of those things that we may never fully know until we get to heaven. My understanding is that Jesus' death was for ALL sin, past present and future, but we can choose to hold on to our sin, or we can choose God.
 
I don't think most Protestant denominations do confession/ penance, not in the way the Catholics understand it at least; we practice something we call "accountability"- we are encouraged to have a close circle of friends with whom we check in regularly, who can challenge us to live and walk more faithfully, and to whom we can talk freely about our struggles and mess-ups. And of course, if we do sin and hurt someone, we confess in prayer to God and make amends to the person we have wronged.
 
Best guess is that it probably really was three nails: one in each hand (or, wrist) and one for the feet.


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 9:08pm
"Yes, 1 on each hand = 2 nails + 1 nail on both feet or angle = 3 nails."

Hmm u sure ..I dont think thats the universal consensus

 Well actually there a lot of versions of how the actual curcifixtion took place some say he was nailed in the palms some say he was nailed in the wrists as it is not physically possible for the hands to support the weight of the body and the would split into two .Some says he was tied and some say he was tied and nailed .
 
 Only one cropse has been found of that era in 1968 at Giv'atha Mivtar which has been crucified and that shows he was tied at the wrists and hung and not nailed ,feet crossed and nailed to a small olive plaque.

 And a personal observation most likely "IF" jesus was crucified and that was suppose to be a form of capital punisment ,public humilation and torture .I don't think the romans after a serious whooping and humiliation leave a little lion cloth to save the persons diginity when being crucified .The victim would be left naked on the cross for all to see and learn a lesson .

 One last thing the cross is more like to be a T than a cross .A horizontal beam affixed over a vertical beam know as a tau or St.Anthonys cross

 Well thats my .02


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks Damo.  You said to Hamayoun that before Christ died, there was not access to heaven.  Did his death open that access to the people that came before him as well?


 
As Christians underdstand it,  thats correct Jamilahz. In Genesis the gates at the garden of Eden were closed fast guarded by the Cherubim. The dead until Christs death went to 'hell' not the eternal hell fire, but hades.
 
 Kings 2:6 6 The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again.
 
 Hell in the damnation sense is eternal, therefore the 'hell' mentioned above is the place of souls prior to the Crucifixion.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: bcgirl
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 10:25pm
Salam, hey just a word to your reply about that bumber sticker...i wish everyone was as blessed as i was a day i was on my way to work and saw a bumper sticker....it read: Why worry? God's in control... that made my whole day....and it is so profound that (and excuse me if i sound a wee bit cuckoo's nest) but if we have the power to not worry...and i mean really not worry because utimately it is all in God's hands yes??? so no matter how much sleep we lose about being 2 days late for rent, or for your car insurance "He" has it all worked out for us!!! as far as 3 nails and sins forgiven???geesh.... i know my friend, this sounds crazy...i beleive in Jesus(pbuh) as you do, but it has already been said in the Qur'an that Jesus(pbuh) did not have a physical death and that he is not the son of Allah, and it is only "He" that can forgive our sins...just stick to the good book and questions like this and when you see the billboards and bumper stickers  you will just smile to yourself and just remember...Canada is the most multi-cultural country probably in existance (i have no documented proof) but as many muslims that live here, it is not an Islamic country...so next time just smile and remember...Why worry, God's in control...Salam Aleikum

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Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...


Posted By: bcgirl
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 10:54pm
Salam Aleikum to everyone who chooses to read my comment... i am in transition at this point but i have learned alot about Islam and lucky for me there are people in my life who have all the answers i seek and more...to me it makes sense that only God can forgive our sins...why would i go into a little booth confess extremely personal things that i am too ashamed to tell my family or significant other and really "believe" that this individual has the power to forgive all that was just spoken to him?? how do i know what this pastor/priest is like outside the church?? is he a credible individual to himself,his family,and the community?i realize most pp know their pastor/priest but what happens if you are a catholic newcomer and join that church?? im sure new pp go every week?? the psychological standpoint i do understand...someone else mentioned that but really...if you pray to God and believe in His infinate power thats all you need. my opinion is if you feel a human who is full of sin, judgement and a whole lot of things can absolve you of your sins ??? then you need to take a good long look in the mirror and really ask yourself...Do i believe in God?? because if you do.. you wouldnt need a human to forgive/absolve you of your sins...i am not judging,please dont misinterpret my words, this is purely my opinion.... and for all the christian,catholics,protestant,and so on... to be considered a muslim you have to believe in all his books and angels and prophets from Adam(pbuh) to Mohammud(pbuh) so if you havent picked up the Holy Qur'an...DO..its a beautiful work of art...like your opinion of the Sistene Chapel or the Vatican....please give it a read..it will change your life..it changed mine...

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Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:01pm
Hi BC Girl:

Sounds like Islam worked a miracle for you. Congratulations!

And I agree about Qur'an. It's great literature on par with any other pillar of western civilization. It's unfortunate that we don't tend to familiarize ourselves with it here (as we do with the Jewish & Christian scriptures) but I trust that will change with time.


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Posted By: hannah114
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:24pm
you are right bcgirl, if someone truly belives in God and all His power then they don't need an intermediary to forgive sins.

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Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

Salam Aleikum to everyone who chooses to read my comment... i am in transition at this point but i have learned alot about Islam and lucky for me there are people in my life who have all the answers i seek and more...to me it makes sense that only God can forgive our sins...why would i go into a little booth confess extremely personal things that i am too ashamed to tell my family or significant other and really "believe" that this individual has the power to forgive all that was just spoken to him?? how do i know what this pastor/priest is like outside the church?? is he a credible individual to himself,his family,and the community?i realize most pp know their pastor/priest but what happens if you are a catholic newcomer and join that church?? im sure new pp go every week?? the psychological standpoint i do understand...someone else mentioned that but really...if you pray to God and believe in His infinate power thats all you need. my opinion is if you feel a human who is full of sin, judgement and a whole lot of things can absolve you of your sins ??? then you need to take a good long look in the mirror and really ask yourself...Do i believe in God?? because if you do.. you wouldnt need a human to forgive/absolve you of your sins...i am not judging,please dont misinterpret my words, this is purely my opinion.... and for all the christian,catholics,protestant,and so on... to be considered a muslim you have to believe in all his books and angels and prophets from Adam(pbuh) to Mohammud(pbuh) so if you havent picked up the Holy Qur'an...DO..its a beautiful work of art...like your opinion of the Sistene Chapel or the Vatican....please give it a read..it will change your life..it changed mine...
 
 I did .. a few years ago.
  And with all due respect, there's more to confession from the Catholic perspective that it seems your aware. Yes only God can forgive sins, Catholics believe this as well as Muslims do.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 1:08pm
Thats cool that you read the Quran Damo... which translation was it?

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Thats cool that you read the Quran Damo... which translation was it?
 
 Hi Jamilahz...
 
  It was one which a female friend lent to me for some time.. I still have the cover of it in my mind, green with golden inlay. It was an english translation. < is that what you meant ?


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 1:21pm
Damo

It must have been Yusuf Ali...

Is this it?



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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 1:27pm

  I think your right Jamilahz.... same shade of green colour and the golden inlay seems very familiar.



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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 1:30pm
Its the version most commonly found at bookstores like border and Barnes and Noble.  The one that I have found I Like the most is http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=120&chapter=0 - Saheeh International

Very plain english, good translation... not much commentary though. 


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: StoryMing
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:16am
I always run into this problem with literature: without knowing the original language, how can I tell which translation is best? And this goes especially for the Qu'ran which is considered to be inherently untranslatable.
 
As to confession/forgiveness, as a Christian I fully agree that only God can forgive sin. We believe that Jesus is our intermediary, but that's a whole other discussion. So no, I don't believe anyone has to go through a priest or minister to get to God; although it seems that He often chooses to work through a human medium


Posted By: hannah114
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:38pm
I use the Yusuf Ali translation....although I wish it had the arabic transliteration as well. but I do like the in-depth explanations throughout the book

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Posted By: Massu
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 1:44pm
I have the Yusuf Ali translation at home... a professor I've been talking back and forth with about Islam gave it to me for my fiancee, who wanted to read the Quran but doesn't read Arabic. I have my own copy in Arabic, and I've been slowly trying to piece together reading it without a translation.

As far as I know, most Protestant denominations do not have any form of confession. Since the nature of the relationship between the believer and God is supposed to be a personal one, one can confess their sins directly to God and ask forgiveness, without having to go through a priest.

yishmael: I was actually raised with a similar attitude towards penance as a Catholic, oddly enough, that you had to not only confess, but to amend the damage you've done because of your sin. Although, I'm not sure if this is something that is universally Catholic or if it was specific to the neighborhood and parish I grew up in. I stopped attending Catholic school before I actually learned much about the religion...


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 3:31pm
yishmael: I was actually raised with a similar attitude towards penance as a Catholic, oddly enough, that you had to not only confess, but to amend the damage you've done because of your sin. Although, I'm not sure if this is something that is universally Catholic or if it was specific to the neighborhood and parish I grew up in. I stopped attending Catholic school before I actually learned much about the religion...

That's so interesting.

I read Kimball's book when I was a little kid. It's frequently criticized, often justifiably so, for the strange ideas contained therein. For example: Kimball contended (based upon earlier Mormon theological ideas) that Cain (the guy who killed his brother in Genesis) was immortally doomed to walk the earth. In the book, Kimball tied him to sightings of Sasquatch. (No, I'm not kidding). Kimball also had some rather bizarre ideas about human sexuality. I read the book with my father (who was then in the stake presidency) and he wisely told me to ignore this nonsense when it occasionally popped up.

All that aside, it was helpful for me to read the book as an early teenager. It was common for kids in my community to imagine that a simple "I'm sorry" was sufficient to get him or her out of whatever harm he might have caused others. Kimball (rightly, in my opinion) dispelled that notion in favor of putting feelings of remorse into actions of reconciliation.

Something interesting I've found on the Catholic perspective can be read here:
http://www.ncccusa.org/pdfs/IFRtomryan.pdf

Father Ryan is a cogent thinker who talks (in this article) about the process of collective reconciliation between bodies of people. He seems to touch on some of the wise ideas you refer to here, promoted by your own individual religious leaders in your youth.


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