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Yishmael & Janet Waters Discuss Their Dif

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Topic: Yishmael & Janet Waters Discuss Their Dif
Posted By: yishmael
Subject: Yishmael & Janet Waters Discuss Their Dif
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 10:40pm
Sister Waters,

You seem to have more to say to me. Lest we derail anyone else's discussion, I thought I'd create a sandbox for further sound 'n' fury. If you see me post something that you feel is incorrect, and you'd like to get personal with the Secular Mormon, go ahead and bring it here.

In your last article, posted here:
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22338&PN=3
you again implied I was an apostate and that I should have my name removed or be otherwise excommunicated from the church.

Fortunately, I have a bishop and a stake president who are both decent non-Utah, non-fanatic type fellows. They have made me perfectly welcome despite the fact that I have a postmodern interpretation of Mormon Doctrine.

I am committed to keeping my temple recommend until my youngest sibling gets married. At that point, I might take you up on your offer. Bear in mind though, that excommunication does not remove one from the body of "Mormons". If I were excommunicated, I would remain a Mormon for the rest of my life.

Being a Mormon is similar to being a Jew. You never really get away from it, even if you want to. If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.

you wrote:


All you have given me is excuses and excuses of why you can't believe.  Stand up and quit being a victim.  Quit hiding behind words. 

As our fore-fathers sing from the dust:

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard? 
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins;
fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell--
All is well!  All is well!!


And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day!   All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow too;
With the Just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain;
Oh how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well!  All is well!!


I take it by this that you're here to "gird up your loins" and "fight" with people of other faiths. I think that's unfortunate -- for you most of all -- as I've learned that fighting tends to teach little and harm much. I have as much in common with these people as I do with you, and I prefer to learn new and interesting things to squabbling back and forth.



Replies:
Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by yishmael

In your last article, posted here:
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22338&PN=3
you again implied I was an apostate and that I should have my name removed or be otherwise excommunicated from the church.


I'm saying that you are either a believer or not.  You profess to be an atheist........therefore you are not a believer.

Originally posted by yishmael

Fortunately, I have a bishop and a stake president who are both decent non-Utah, non-fanatic type fellows. They have made me perfectly welcome despite the fact that I have a postmodern interpretation of Mormon Doctrine.


All Bishops/Stake Presidents will welcome all.  Every erring individual is given space to grow and repent.....as long as that individual is not dangerous to the welfare of others.


Originally posted by yishmael

I am committed to keeping my temple recommend until my youngest sibling gets married. At that point, I might take you up on your offer. Bear in mind though, that excommunication does not remove one from the body of "Mormons". If I were excommunicated, I would remain a Mormon for the rest of my life.


In order to have and keep a temple recommend-- a person has to be able to honestly answer certain questions.  These answers are given "on your honor" directed to God through his anointed messengers.  Based on our previous conversations.....you would not be able to honestly answer these questions and retain that recommend.  Therefore to continue to keep that recommend and walk into the temple is to do so unworthily.

You may fool some of the people some of the time, however, God cannot be fooled.  To enter his house (the temple--not the church) unworthily is to drink damnation to the soul.  I hope being there for your youngest sibling's marriage is worth that....to you.  I'm sure if the rest of your family was aware of this....they would want far better for you than you want for yourself.



Originally posted by yishmael

Being a Mormon is similar to being a Jew. You never really get away from it, even if you want to. If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.



I see that you consider yourself a "cultural mormon."  Even still this will not save you of the second death.  Both faith and works are required in order to lay claim to the name of a true believer.


New Testament | Revelation 2:7 - 11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
8  And unto the angel (servant:Bishop) of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Originally posted by Janet Waters

All you have given me is excuses and excuses of why you can't believe.  Stand up and quit being a victim.  Quit hiding behind words. 

As our fore-fathers sing from the dust:

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard? 
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins;
fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell--
All is well!  All is well!!


And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day!   All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow too;
With the Just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain;
Oh how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well!  All is well!!


Originally posted by Janet Waters

I take it by this that you're here to "gird up your loins" and "fight" with people of other faiths. I think that's unfortunate -- for you most of all -- as I've learned that fighting tends to teach little and harm much. I have as much in common with these people as I do with you, and I prefer to learn new and interesting things to squabbling back and forth.


No, I'm on this site as a true representative of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am here for varied reasons, one of which, is to dispel the incorrect assumptions about us and our doctrine.

Other organizations, who are not us, try to fool people into believing that they are us, and thus continue the ignorance that prevails.  For short we are the LDS Church....we are not the FLDS or the RLDS or anyother organization who choose to call themselves "Mormon" when they are not.  (Including this self proclaimed "secular mormon" belief system that is not consistent with mormon doctrine).

Those who do not believe in our doctrine are free to join another church or create one of their own making.  A person is either one of us (Mormon) or he is apart from us.  We do not have sects within the Church.  Those who cannot live the gospel are excommunicated and are not a part of us.

We as a people are commanded to be "one" as the Father and the Son are one.  This oneness means to be unified with one heart, might, mind, and strength.  If we as a people are not united we are not "HIS."

If we allow ourselves to be divided (into sects like others) we will not be accepted of the Lord.  If we allow ourselves to become divided...this is when the destroyer comes in amongst us and sows tares amongst the wheat.  This is how the harvest is destroyed.

Therefore, for the benefit of all, only the true believers who are in good standing with the Church are the body of the Church.  All others need to either conform their lives to be in accordance with this..........or leave.








Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

In your last article, posted here:
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22338&PN=3
you again implied I was an apostate and that I should have my name removed or be otherwise excommunicated from the church.


I'm saying that you are either a believer or not.  You profess to be an atheist........therefore you are not a believer.

Originally posted by yishmael

Fortunately, I have a bishop and a stake president who are both decent non-Utah, non-fanatic type fellows. They have made me perfectly welcome despite the fact that I have a postmodern interpretation of Mormon Doctrine.


All Bishops/Stake Presidents will welcome all.  Every erring individual is given space to grow and repent.....as long as that individual is not dangerous to the welfare of others.


Originally posted by yishmael

I am committed to keeping my temple recommend until my youngest sibling gets married. At that point, I might take you up on your offer. Bear in mind though, that excommunication does not remove one from the body of "Mormons". If I were excommunicated, I would remain a Mormon for the rest of my life.


In order to have and keep a temple recommend-- a person has to be able to honestly answer certain questions.  These answers are given "on your honor" directed to God through his anointed messengers.  Based on our previous conversations.....you would not be able to honestly answer these questions and retain that recommend.  Therefore to continue to keep that recommend and walk into the temple is to do so unworthily.

You may fool some of the people some of the time, however, God cannot be fooled.  To enter his house (the temple--not the church) unworthily is to drink damnation to the soul.  I hope being there for your youngest sibling's marriage is worth that....to you.  I'm sure if the rest of your family was aware of this....they would want far better for you than you want for yourself.



There is a reason that the temple recommend questions are specific and that the leadership is not allowed to delve any deeper than simple yes or no answers. I've been very open for many years (with the right people, of course -- I don't talk to true believers too much, because I'm generally not interested in what they have to say).

The brethren welcome people like me to remain recommend holders and the brethren consider me worthy, despite the fact that I define the recommend questions differently than you and other true believers do. Whether this is due to open-mindedness at the top, or whether it's simply a desire to get (what I define as) a full tithe out of me is not a question I can answer.

Here's what you don't seem to understand: You don't get to define me, or anyone else. Mormonism isn't a church you get to wall up. You don't get to tell me I'm unworthy, either. The fact that you're doing so here means you are putting yourself above God and his "judges in zion". You might want to talk to your own bishop about this, as by your own definition you are as sinful as anyone.

All others need to either conform their lives to be in accordance with this..........or leave.


This is the statement of a cult leader, not an honorable seeker of the divine. Interesting that you mentioned the FLDS earlier, as this is precisely what they base their theology upon.

Best,

Yishmael


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Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by yishmael



If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.




Salam Yishmael

Hope I'm not butting in, but what do you mean about another church or Episcopalians not holding the belief in a literal God?

Jamilah


-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:14pm
Hi Jamilah,

Many Episcopalians (American Anglican Christians) and many Reform Jews (followers of another American movement) do believe in a literal, personal God.

These two movements, in practice, are a bit more tolerant about members who do not see God in the personal, traditional way that is common.

Rabbi Kaplan would probably have been very welcome in either movement, as it exists today.

Kaplan affirmed that God is not personal, and that all anthropomorphic descriptions of God are, at best, imperfect metaphors. Kaplan's theology went beyond this to claim that God is the sum of all natural processes that allow man to become self-fulfilled. Kaplan wrote that "to believe in God means to take for granted that it is man's destiny to rise above the brute and to eliminate all forms of violence and exploitation from human society."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism

I wish I could put my own thoughts on God better than the Rebbe here, but I can't.

Another (typically American) movement which is said to have a similar tolerant structure are the Unitarian Universalist congregations. I don't know as much about them and have never been to one of their services, so I hope any members will feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Muslims can perhaps see something similar in the subtext here:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Harmony_of_Religions_and_Philosophy
If I find an ibn-Rushd style masjid in my area, then I might start attending that once in a while too. :)

I hope that explains my own position a little bit better than I did previously. If you're more confused than ever, well, I am too. It's tough trying to figure out all the whys and wherefores of this life, and I'm nowhere near getting to the secrets of the universe. I resigned myself long ago to the idea that asking questions is more important than mere belief anyway, so I'm likely to change my mind tomorrow if circumstances or evidence manages to sway me in any particular direction.

Best Regards,

Yishmael


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Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:42pm
Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.

-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.


That's good. I hope I do not come across as the typical "Mormon missionary" who thinks that he has the "one true way" with which to stump. I'm here neither to convert, nor be converted. I'm not here to defend the faith. I'm just here to educate myself.

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.


-------------


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by jamilahz

Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.


That's good. I hope I do not come across as the typical "Mormon missionary" who thinks that he has the "one true way" with which to stump. I'm here neither to convert, nor be converted. I'm not here to defend the faith. I'm just here to educate myself.

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.


Brigham Young would be appalled with that claim.

This is insane!  There is only one Church by the name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or otherwise known as The Mormon Church).

All other organizations who claim that they are.........are deceivers and are in reality anti-mormon....whether or not they smart enough to figure that out! 

People who are ex-communicated from the Church.........are no longer associated with us and are not members of the same faith.  They can get their own identity through another organization who call themselves another name.  AND NOT MADE-UP COMBINATIONS OF OUR NAME--- WHICH ARE BEING USED TO DECEIVE THEMSELVES AND/OR OTHERS INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE MEMBERS OF OUR CHURCH.

If you want to follow your own doctrines........do it with another name. 







Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 7:35pm
Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by jamilahz

Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.


That's good. I hope I do not come across as the typical "Mormon missionary" who thinks that he has the "one true way" with which to stump. I'm here neither to convert, nor be converted. I'm not here to defend the faith. I'm just here to educate myself.

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.


Brigham Young would be appalled with that claim.

This is insane!  There is only one Church by the name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or otherwise known as The Mormon Church).

All other organizations who claim that they are.........are deceivers and are in reality anti-mormon....whether or not they smart enough to figure that out! 

People who are ex-communicated from the Church.........are no longer associated with us and are not members of the same faith.  They can get their own identity through another organization who call themselves another name.  AND NOT MADE-UP COMBINATIONS OF OUR NAME--- WHICH ARE BEING USED TO DECEIVE THEMSELVES AND/OR OTHERS INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE MEMBERS OF OUR CHURCH.

If you want to follow your own doctrines........do it with another name. 



Sorry. RLDS, FLDS and others do have a historical and legitimate claim to the word "Mormon", whether or not they embrace it. As does D. Michael Quinn and others who may have been excommunicated from the Brighamite faction.

D. Michael Quinn is a "Mormon" because he was born into a Mormon family and he still calls himself one. He's smarter than both of us and I trust him to know enough about himself to describe himself accurately. Whether or not his name is on the membership roster in SLC is of no consequence whatever. The fact that Janet Waters doesn't recognize him as a "Mormon" means absolutely nothing to everyone, with the possible exception of "Janet Waters".

You seem to feel that ours is the "Church of Janet Waters" and as such, you can tell others who and what they are. Needless to say, I don't recognize your authority as prophet, seer and revelator and I'll encourage anyone else here not to take you too seriously either.

I was going to let this go, but I'll also point out that your earlier claim of being some sort of official spokesperson for the LDS church is laughable and ridiculous. The church is a corporation, and has a PR department and a bunch of apostles (i.e. a board of directors) who have the job of speaking for the church. Neither of us can usurp their positions.

You wrote:
I'm on this site as a true representative of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am here for varied reasons, one of which, is to dispel the incorrect assumptions about us and our doctrine.


So far you've treated me (your brother in the faith) with far more contempt than any Muslim or Christian has so far done. Not only that, but you've also opened up the freakin' BOOK OF ABRAHAM as a legitimate topic of discussion. (LOL! LOL! LOL!)

I doubt any "true representative" possessed of an ounce of discretion or good sense would have done this.

You don't speak for me or any other Mormon. You don't represent the LDS church. You speak only for yourself. Remember that.

Best,

Yishmael


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Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:03pm
I don't know if this is just me... but you (yishmael)seem to call yourself a Mormon and a atheist... this is very confusing for anyone with a brain... Being an atheist you believe there is no god or that god has no authority over the people here on earth... and being a Mormon you believe that god loves all his children and that you will be saved and your so religious... blah blah blah... Mormons and atheist are complete opposites... one is PRO GOD and one is ANTI GOD... I don't know... maybe you have a split personality and you go back and forth but either way you're confused... try your logic on someone else in your state of confusion/delusion cause I'm not buying.

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Shanna


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by sbananamarie11

I don't know if this is just me... but you (yishmael)seem to call yourself a Mormon and a atheist... this is very confusing for anyone with a brain... Being an atheist you believe there is no god or that god has no authority over the people here on earth... and being a Mormon you believe that god loves all his children and that you will be saved and your so religious... blah blah blah... Mormons and atheist are complete opposites... one is PRO GOD and one is ANTI GOD... I don't know... maybe you have a split personality and you go back and forth but either way you're confused... try your logic on someone else in your state of confusion/delusion cause I'm not buying.


Nice to see another missionary here to defend the faith, indulging in personal attacks rather than debating the issues.

Steve Benson is a secular Mormon who (like me) is skeptical about the existence of God. He won a Pulitzer Prize. Margaret & Paul Toscano have also called themselves secular Mormons. They write peer reviewed journal articles. They're all good examples of people who have a better grasp on logic than you (and me too).

Whether you and Janet like it or not, I'll continue to define myself by the *Mormon* label, which is my birthright. If I'm ever interested in your own interpretation, I'll look for the "Church of sbananamarie11" and see about attending meetings. Until then, you'll just have to deal with it.

Take Care,

Yishmael


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Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 10:55pm
So do you "secular mormons" have regular meetings? or do you just spit out claims of "being mormons" without the doctrines to support yourselves?

And what issues are you supposedly talking about... the name of the forum is to discuss your differences... isn't that what I am doing? or did you over look that?

And these references mean nothing to me... I've never heard of them... so I looked them up...

1st Steve Benson never once claimed he was a secular mormon....

and 2nd neither did Paul Toscano or his wife ever claim they were "secular mormons" and I quote "Toscano has stated that he lost his faith and said he feels remorse only for being so angry at the LDS Church." They write books... not articles.

And what is this birthright you speak of... is it the birthright to manipulate words and doctrines at your wim to suit your fancy?

And no you won't find the "church of sbananamarie11" because that doesn't exist. Sbananamarie11 knows what church she belongs to and doesn't have to make one up.



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Shanna


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:18pm
Now I'm curious... is there some master list of who is mormon somewhere?  You mentioned that he could be ex communicated from the church??


-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Steve Benson is a secular Mormon who (like me) is skeptical about the existence of God. He won a Pulitzer Prize. Margaret & Paul Toscano have also called themselves secular Mormons. They write peer reviewed journal articles. They're all good examples of people who have a better grasp on logic than you (and me too).


Do you personally know Steve?  I don't.  However, I know other family members within the Benson family.  President Benson's sister, spoke at my father's baptism.  I grew up with her grandchildren (nephews of Pres. Benson) in their native state.  Over the years, I had weekly if not daily contact with them seeing them grow up in the Benson family.  They were true blue faithful members.  They had respect for their great uncle.  Not to say that they were all perfect, but they were believers.  Unfortunately, every good family ends up having a black sheep or two.  I'm sad to see the Benson's were no different.

So in order to join the "black-sheep" society--- you need to be excommunicated?  If that's the group you identify with.....why don't you make it legal. 

There again back and forth.......back and forth.  Are you schizophrenic too or just bipolar? 







Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:22pm
I'm surprised at you Janet.. I would never think you would ask someone if they had a serious medical disorder as a joke at their expense.  

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Now I'm curious... is there some master list of who is mormon somewhere?  You mentioned that he could be ex communicated from the church??


Yes Church Headquarters.  Individual records can be looked up by the clerk of the congregation (ward) within the geographical boundaries that the individual lives in.

When a person is excommunicated their name is blotted-out from the records of the Church.




Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm surprised at you Janet.. I would never think you would ask someone if they had a serious medical disorder as a joke at their expense.  


I'm giving him a chance to save face....since he is full of excuses.






Strike out!


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:44pm
What I meant is that I don't expect you to stoop to such a level as to say such a childish thing.  

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:48pm
No.... in all seriousness....sometimes it takes a shocking remark to help a person realize there is something seriously wrong.  If this person expects to be taken seriously, then he needs to go back and re-read his posts and try to make sense of his own contradictions.

I have "0" Tolerance....sorry.





Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:56pm
I know you take yourself very seriously.. .but you can't just go around calling people things like that.  

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:07am
LOL well if the shoe fits...


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:08am
Hi Shana,

Someone told me that you're Janet's teenage daughter. It's strange that someone who claims to be on a mission from the church needs her family members to shill for her, but not surprising.

Of course I have meetings. I go to a regular ward. I usually attend sacrament meeting and skip out on the rest.

Secular Mormons are in your own ward. We teach gospel doctrine and do service projects. You don't see us because we know how you'll react ... and your mother's reaction is an excellent example.

I don't dislike your mother. She's insecure and probably doesn't have very much in the way of faith. People like your mother cling to ritual to cover your own doubts.

I have met Steve Benson on more than one occasion personally. We're not close personal friends (I live on the other side of the country) but we had a couple of very cordial conversations. I believe he's taken to describing himself as an "ex-Mormon" recently, but he's a Mormon nonetheless.

I have not met Paul Toscano, but I have met Margaret Toscano personally. People like your mother had her excommunicated simply for publishing an article which did not conform to the specific ideas of God that the brethren promote. I was about your age, a student at the University of Utah, when this happened.

I have never attempted to manipulate anyone with words. I have been very honest about my doubts. There are thousands of us inside and outside the church right now. We know what kind of people you are, and this is the reason that you don't get to know who we are. You understand that, right? We don't want our children harassed or assaulted. We don't want people to tell our neighbors the things that you and your mother are telling people on this forum...references to drugs, mental illness, crime. It's unpleasant, and rather than fight you, we choose to keep our distance from people like you. We let you have your beliefs, and we have our doubts quietly.

My birthright is the same as yours. I was born a Mormon, into a Mormon family. We disagree, but that doesn't make either of us less Mormons. Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan don't agree on much of anything, but they never tried to tell one another that either was not an Irish American. Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas traded insults, but neither was silly enough to tell the other he wasn't an African-American. I see Muslims argue, and I've seen Muslims express skepticism, but when this happens it is not common to see one call the other an "anti-Muslim".

When you examine your reaction, and the reaction of your mother, and you compare it to the reactions of other social and religious groups, it doesn't seem rational. So far, your mother has implied that I am involved in drugs and pornography, without any evidence. You and she are now implying that I am mentally ill.

There are groups that indulge in such behaviors. They're called cults. They're not religions. When viewed in that context, you and your mother are not helping the image of the church. You are destroying it. In a very real, tangible way, you are the anti-Mormons. By your fruits, you are known.

Best Regards,

Yishmael

Originally posted by sbananamarie11

So do you "secular mormons" have regular meetings? or do you just spit out claims of "being mormons" without the doctrines to support yourselves?

And what issues are you supposedly talking about... the name of the forum is to discuss your differences... isn't that what I am doing? or did you over look that?

And these references mean nothing to me... I've never heard of them... so I looked them up...

1st Steve Benson never once claimed he was a secular mormon....

and 2nd neither did Paul Toscano or his wife ever claim they were "secular mormons" and I quote "Toscano has stated that he lost his faith and said he feels remorse only for being so angry at the LDS Church." They write books... not articles.

And what is this birthright you speak of... is it the birthright to manipulate words and doctrines at your wim to suit your fancy?

And no you won't find the "church of sbananamarie11" because that doesn't exist. Sbananamarie11 knows what church she belongs to and doesn't have to make one up.



-------------


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:14am
Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters

LOL well if the shoe fits...


I'm glad that you've given such a candid display of the shaming that goes on in Mormon culture. To recap, earlier you implied that I might be involved with both illicit narcotics and pornography. Tonight you have taken to pronouncing some sort of diagnosis of mental illness.

The Muslims are likely pretty interested in this facet of Mormon social behavior. I can attest to the fact that it is very common in our tradition (particularly among people in Janet's generation) to rely upon personal attacks, libel and slander whenever a Mormon is faced with troubling historical or theological evidence that their beliefs might not be perfectly accurate.

This is common in many fringe groups. Scientology is a good example. It does not seem common among Muslims (except perhaps for the most extreme and unpleasant variety).


-------------


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:31am
Originally posted by Janet Waters

LOL well if the shoe fits...


I think I am seeing your true colors now. 


-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:59am
Don't you just love that song....I see your true colors shin'in thru.  A faux Mormon can fool some of the people some of the time....but he can't fool a real one.

Originally posted by Janet Waters

LOL well if the shoe fits...


Originally posted by yishmael

I'm glad that you've given such a candid display of the shaming that goes on in Mormon culture. To recap, earlier you implied that I might be involved with both illicit narcotics and pornography. Tonight you have taken to pronouncing some sort of diagnosis of mental illness.


I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.  This was my quote:


Originally posted by Janet Waters

Y
ou are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


You sure do like to twist words and their meanings to suit yourself don't you?  Untwist your mind and you might get it straight next time.  Take a little truth.....and twist it.....and twist it....with the intention to deceive....nice touch there.

I could go back and re-post each quote that you have twisted.  But its not worth the time for you contradict your own words and don't seem to recognize that.....so why bother?


Originally posted by yishmael

The Muslims are likely pretty interested in this facet of Mormon social behavior.


So are you now the poster child for Muslims and what they are interested in?  Make up your mind who you are and what one thing you think.  Don't speak for other people.


Originally posted by yishmael

I can attest to the fact that it is very common in our tradition (particularly among people in Janet's generation) to rely upon personal attacks, libel and slander whenever a Mormon is faced with troubling historical or theological evidence that their beliefs might not be perfectly accurate.


Honey.....you have made it clear that WE don't have a "common tradition."  So speak for yourself and your own traditions.  Remember you are the atheist and I am the Mormon here.

My generation....what is that suppose to mean?  Was that suppose to be an insult?  ouch!!

How is it, that anyone could think that your beliefs are perfectly accurate.....when you contradict those beliefs in every other paragraph?  You claim that you are an atheist then next paragraph you are a Mormon.  You use all the anti-mormon stuff to dispute Mormon Doctrine and then you are a "secular mormon" who has the same "traditions" but don't reveal who you are in public around Mormons for fear of rejection.  Then you will even admit that you are confused then you say that it is everyone else who is confused.  Get a grip....you are either confused or not.  Make up your mind.  But don't speak for what others believe as though you are them....you are you.

I've been overly patient with you.  But no more.   Maybe you should  rewrite that high school essay and use yourself and your own doctrines for the purpose of psychoanalyzing (instead of doing to others that you don't even know).

Originally posted by yishmael

This is common in many fringe groups. Scientology is a good example. It does not seem common among Muslims (except perhaps for the most extreme and unpleasant variety).


Quit speaking for other people and their beliefs.  And....by the way quit stereo typing people that you don't know into one person.  You sure don't have a problem grouping yourself into just one person.






Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:03am
Obviously I am not a teenager... and I have been on and off this site for 4 years now, held my tongue, for the purpose of familiarizing myself with the beliefs of others so that I can become a more informed person. Not until I have seen your recent posts did I become irritated enough to say anything. I'm irritated b/c you are the type of people that give the church a bad name. You go around confessing that you are a mormon but don't believe in what the mormons believe to be true. Where I grew up there weren't a lot of members and lines were clearly defined.... you were either for or against... plain and simple. Not until I was in college did I come to the realization that in other parts of the country it was not the same. People felt like they had to all be "Molly Mormons" and "appear" to be like everybody else... they didn't know how to think for themselves and to be who they really were. Gray areas were added into the mix. I know who I am and I'm not ashamed to have to pretend like you and so many others are. Stop hiding behind your excuses and be a man. If you don't believe then that's your problem... and then that would mean you aren't a "mormon". There are many people who have high standards and a moral conscience that doesn't mean they are mormon by association. The very same could be said about you. Just b/c you claim to be mormon doesn't mean you are a believer... it's just a title to hide behind b/c you don't have the guts to stand up and say you are what you are.

Race and a religious belief are two different inheritances. You can choose to be a mormon or a catholic or a baptist... but you can't suddenly choose to be white or black or hispanic. It doesn't work that way.

And how do you see that you are helping the image of the church since you say that I am hurting it?  Do you feel that b/c you are being refreshingly honest on here instead of in your life you are helping anyone?

It doesn't seem "rational" to be something your not.

The whole idea of a "secular" mormonism  just doesn't make any sense... what's the point?

-------------
Shanna


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:56am
Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters



I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.


Here's what you wrote:

You are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


Remember: I never framed you for a liar.

Have a good night,

Yishmael


-------------


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:05am
Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters



I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.


Here's what you wrote:

You are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


Remember: I never framed you for a liar.

Have a good night,

Yishmael


You love to throw in those fighting words....then frame them softly as though you are the victim.....and you need sympathy. 
You are one or the other....but not both at the same time.  Which thing I know is very confusing to you.

Before you re-read my quote again.....take off the victim glasses so you can see what is really there.












Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:14am
Hi Shana,

Right. Your profile alleges you're 21. About the same age as I was when the Toscanos were slandered, libeled and dragged through endless filth in Salt Lake City by true believers who didn't like their interpretation of theology. They were painted as possibly being part of polygamy or an illicit sex ring. Was this true? No, it was not true. It was utter filth, spread about two wonderful people, by true believing Mormons. In essence, it was exactly what any cult would do to people who disagreed on a minor issue, and it is exactly what you and your mother have attempted to do here.

Mr. Benson is still being slandered by Mormon fanatics. I write articles for wikipedia on occasion, and the administrators have had to lock his entry because of the insane and untrue filth that Mormon apologists have attempted to falsely ascribe to him. He is also a wonderful man, and I wish I knew him further than a couple of brief but warm conversations. The digital danites have soured him on Mormonism forever. He's one of the best artists alive in America today, and he'll never come back due to all the personal abuse that he, his wife, and his children have suffered.

I go to a reform temple with my mother in law. Half the Jews in the congregation will openly talk about not believing in God. Do any of the other believers slander them, or spread lies about them? Do the skeptics get told that they are "anti-Jewish" because they are openly skeptical? No, they do not do this. Judaism is a religion, not a cult. People are judged upon their deeds, not upon differences of opinion.

Here's the news. Mormonism is a religion too. You don't see it, because you're voluntarily living in the cult that Mormonism used to be. I don't blame you for this. You're only 21 and it seems like you might have enjoyed a rather (and I'm putting this nicely) interesting environment in your formative years. Ask yourself why people like me manage to keep our recommends? The church has changed in the last 10 years. We are encouraged to stay. I have been begged to stay, personally, and I'm hardly the only one.

There are many of us in your ward right now, whether it's a singles ward or a family ward. We don't interfere with people like you. We love people like you, even if we don't agree, and despite the un-Christlike behavior you so often display.

Those of us who have decided to stay in love the church, despite some of the members. We live the teachings of the church, loving our brothers and sisters, rather than spewing insane accusations at those we disagree with.

I am a Mormon and will remain one until the end of my life. We all will. It's a unique sociocultural group built around the westward migration. It's an ethnic group of its own. Nobody can take Mormonism away from me.

Have a good night,

Yishmael

Originally posted by sbananamarie11

Obviously I am not a teenager... and I have been on and off this site for 4 years now, held my tongue, for the purpose of familiarizing myself with the beliefs of others so that I can become a more informed person. Not until I have seen your recent posts did I become irritated enough to say anything. I'm irritated b/c you are the type of people that give the church a bad name. You go around confessing that you are a mormon but don't believe in what the mormons believe to be true. Where I grew up there weren't a lot of members and lines were clearly defined.... you were either for or against... plain and simple. Not until I was in college did I come to the realization that in other parts of the country it was not the same. People felt like they had to all be "Molly Mormons" and "appear" to be like everybody else... they didn't know how to think for themselves and to be who they really were. Gray areas were added into the mix. I know who I am and I'm not ashamed to have to pretend like you and so many others are. Stop hiding behind your excuses and be a man. If you don't believe then that's your problem... and then that would mean you aren't a "mormon". There are many people who have high standards and a moral conscience that doesn't mean they are mormon by association. The very same could be said about you. Just b/c you claim to be mormon doesn't mean you are a believer... it's just a title to hide behind b/c you don't have the guts to stand up and say you are what you are.

Race and a religious belief are two different inheritances. You can choose to be a mormon or a catholic or a baptist... but you can't suddenly choose to be white or black or hispanic. It doesn't work that way.

And how do you see that you are helping the image of the church since you say that I am hurting it?  Do you feel that b/c you are being refreshingly honest on here instead of in your life you are helping anyone?

It doesn't seem "rational" to be something your not.

The whole idea of a "secular" mormonism  just doesn't make any sense... what's the point?


-------------


Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:35am
How do you know they were excommunicated for minor issues? In the articles I have read they never specify why they were excommunicated and it's only for the ppl exed and the bishop and the lord to know that information.

ok whatever so now your a cultural/secular mormon/reformed jew/atheist... so you don't really even know what you are... yea I might be 21 but I have a clear and perfect idea who and what I am and what I believe. I'm not ashamed and I am wide open with all who know me as to what I believe. I'm done trying to understand the confusion that is that you. I've said my peace.




-------------
Shanna


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:42am
Originally posted by sbananamarie11


ok whatever so now your a cultural/secular mormon/reformed jew/atheist... so you don't really even know what you are...


We're both here on a Muslim site. Does that mean you're confused and that you're actually a Muslim? It doesn't, does it?

If you get married into a non LDS family you will surely have occasion to attend religious services which are not your own. I enjoy my in-laws and I enjoy their temple. They let women preside and lead prayers, sorta like the Muslims.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/chaplain.htm

They also trust the congregants to live honorable lives without insisting upon agreement with the minutiae of what God looks like, and why we never saw Kolob through the Hubble telescope. (Little joke for you, that nobody but us three will understand).

Someday our tradition will see female leaders, and people will be free to argue about different interpretations of God without anyone fearing slander or harassment. When the day comes (soon!) that you or one of your female friends is set apart to be a bishop, I want you to remember our conversation.


-------------


Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:53am
When pigs fly... you think you flatter me with all this feminist crap. But I think feminists are stupid, bitter, whinny women who feel they are "victims" of the male gender... which is crap. Nice try.

-------------
Shanna


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters



I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.


Here's what you wrote:

You are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


Remember: I never framed you for a liar.

Have a good night,

Yishmael


You love to throw in those fighting words....then frame them softly as though you are the victim.....and you need sympathy. 
You are one or the other....but not both at the same time.  Which thing I know is very confusing to you.

Before you re-read my quote again.....take off the victim glasses so you can see what is really there.



Please. My entire household was laughing at your psychotic behavior until 11 PM. I rather enjoyed it.

I live in "the mission field". My ward and stake leadership know me. My kids can't be hassled by gangs of Mormon kooks, and nobody would believe any of the nonsense you have so far vomited up in my direction.

I hope the administrators lock this thread (given your habit of editing your outbursts, long after posting, to make yourself look a little less bizarre) and archive it someplace, for the edification of any Muslim who imagines s/he might wander off and convert to Mormonism.

It'd probably also be relevant to the parallel thread on the scientology protests and the FLDS raid, as you're giving all the spectators a great example the danger of joining insular sects in general.

Best,

Yishmael


-------------


Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:56am
you are deceived


-------------
Shanna


Posted By: sbananamarie11
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:57am
.

-------------
Shanna


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:03pm

This is yet another personality?  How many of them do you have anyway?  The content of all my posts stayed the same.  The only reason I edit is for spelling and/or for adding additional information--not the subtraction of it.  So if you have interpreted anything as " bizarre" it should have been consistently bizarre.   

But then again....you are not consistent, you don't have the ability to consistently interpret yourself, anything that you say, or anything that you interpret.  So the above comment is true to form.

I'm glad that you get a laugh from your fits of strangeness....because I feel sorry for you and anyone that has been inflicted in dealing with the guy in the "mission field."  Especially one who doesn't know which "field" he is in.

I figured that I had been punked.  The thing is the joke is on you.


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters


This is yet another personality?  How many of them do you have anyway?  The content of all my posts stayed the same.  The only reason I edit is for spelling and/or for adding additional information--not the subtraction of it.  So if you have interpreted anything as " bizarre" it should have been consistently bizarre.     


That's interesting that you bring up "alternate personalities".

Tell the truth Janet, it's more than just a coincidence that you and "Shana" always seem to post at the same time...right?


-------------


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by Janet Waters


This is yet another personality?  How many of them do you have anyway?  The content of all my posts stayed the same.  The only reason I edit is for spelling and/or for adding additional information--not the subtraction of it.  So if you have interpreted anything as " bizarre" it should have been consistently bizarre.     


That's interesting that you bring up "alternate personalities".

Tell the truth Janet, it's more than just a coincidence that you and "Shana" always seem to post at the same time...right?



People don't see the world as it is........
they see the world as THEY are. 

Just because you are a multiple....
doesn't mean that everyone else is.






Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:17pm
I have to admit its pretty confusing.  I'm getting all of the email notifications on this... and first something is posted by shana then by shana without the quote then the same thing again by janet... What are you all doing? 

Plus, I think we all get the picture.  Janet and shana don't like Yishmael.  So tone it down. 


-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:18pm
You think that you give Ashton Kutcher a run for the money?  Think again!  Don't quit your day job.


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by Janet Waters


This is yet another personality?  How many of them do you have anyway?  The content of all my posts stayed the same.  The only reason I edit is for spelling and/or for adding additional information--not the subtraction of it.  So if you have interpreted anything as " bizarre" it should have been consistently bizarre.     


That's interesting that you bring up "alternate personalities".

Tell the truth Janet, it's more than just a coincidence that you and "Shana" always seem to post at the same time...right?



People don't see the world as it is........
they see the world as THEY are. 

Just because you are a multiple....
doesn't mean that everyone else is.






Actually someone else mentioned the possibility yesterday. Apparently "shana" has made miraculous appearances in the past, to back up your arguments here on this forum, when you have been embarrassed by your own behavior. True or not? I can't say. You're the one continuing to harp on "multiple personalities", and you're the only one that seems to have one here. Interesting stuff, that. 

What do you suppose is the underlying motivation for this strange behavior of yours?


-------------


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I have to admit its pretty confusing.  I'm getting all of the email notifications on this... and first something is posted by shana then by shana without the quote then the same thing again by janet... What are you all doing? 

Plus, I think we all get the picture.  Janet and shana don't like Yishmael.  So tone it down. 


Shanna is my 21 year old daughter...she has a mind of her own.  We are not "multiples" like Yishmael.



Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:21pm
I'm not saying you are multiples... but whats up with the yo yo posts? 

And really, you are getting so childish... take a step back from the computer and get on with your life.


-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I have to admit its pretty confusing.  I'm getting all of the email notifications on this... and first something is posted by shana then by shana without the quote then the same thing again by janet... What are you all doing? 

Plus, I think we all get the picture.  Janet and shana don't like Yishmael.  So tone it down. 


Sorry boss, for my part in this.

I started a new thread when Janet/Shana began alluding to "drugs and pornography", simply because I've dealt with characters like this one before and didn't want her to derail any of the serious discussions here. That aside, I'll call it quits, as I think the argument is simply repetition at this point.


-------------


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by jamilahz

I have to admit its pretty confusing.  I'm getting all of the email notifications on this... and first something is posted by shana then by shana without the quote then the same thing again by janet... What are you all doing? 

Plus, I think we all get the picture.  Janet and shana don't like Yishmael.  So tone it down. 


Shanna is my 21 year old daughter...she has a mind of her own.  We are not "multiples" like Yishmael.



LOL! We all believe you.

Have a nice day.


-------------


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by jamilahz

I have to admit its pretty confusing.  I'm getting all of the email notifications on this... and first something is posted by shana then by shana without the quote then the same thing again by janet... What are you all doing? 

Plus, I think we all get the picture.  Janet and shana don't like Yishmael.  So tone it down. 


Sorry boss, for my part in this.

I started a new thread when Janet/Shana began alluding to "drugs and pornography", simply because I've dealt with characters like this one before and didn't want her to derail any of the serious discussions here. That aside, I'll call it quits, as I think the argument is simply repetition at this point.


Its not directed at you at all... you are keeping it at a mature level so far :)


-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Actually someone else mentioned the possibility yesterday. Apparently "shana" has made miraculous appearances in the past, to back up your arguments here on this forum, when you have been embarrassed by your own behavior. True or not? I can't say. You're the one continuing to harp on "multiple personalities", and you're the only one that seems to have one here. Interesting stuff, that. 

What do you suppose is the underlying motivation for this strange behavior of yours?


Hearing voices again?  Actually, Shanna doesn't have enough patience to debate people.  So even if I wanted that....she wouldn't be up for it.



Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I have to admit its pretty confusing.  I'm getting all of the email notifications on this... and first something is posted by shana then by shana without the quote then the same thing again by janet... What are you all doing?


Originally posted by yishmael

Plus, I think we all get the picture.  Janet and shana don't like Yishmael.  So tone it down.


Originally posted by yishmael

Sorry boss, for my part in this.

I started a new thread when Janet/Shana began alluding to "drugs and pornography", simply because I've dealt with characters like this one before and didn't want her to derail any of the serious discussions here. That aside, I'll call it quits, as I think the argument is simply repetition at this point.


Like I said, go back and read that post again.....you are paranoid.  Is your ego that fragile?----enough to think that people really care about you delusions of insult?  Nobody would even remember it.........so why should you?




Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm not saying you are multiples... but whats up with the yo yo posts? 

And really, you are getting so childish... take a step back from the computer and get on with your life.


That post was not meant for you....it was directed at me....because of my comment to him.




Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:03pm
Blessed silence!!!

How blessed it is!!

Thank you





Posted By: One-of-many
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:39pm
Has a sort of car wreck facination this thread.
Pistols at dawn?
Bricks through windows?
I can taste the anger.
 
Hope you can shake hands and agree to disagree!
 
 


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by One-of-many

Has a sort of car wreck facination this thread.
Pistols at dawn?
Bricks through windows?
I can taste the anger.
Hope you can shake hands and agree to disagree!


Not likely



Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Janet,  I'm from an old pioneer family and I respect that..... I am skeptical of a historical Jesus and I don't believe in God, except in the way ibn-Sina might have, as something so abstract, powerful and pervasive that no human can possibly wrap his mind around the concept.


Originally posted by yishmael

Well, supposedly we all fought a war in the pre-existence, came to earth to get bodies through a veil, which prevents us remembering such stuff, and here we are. God knew I was skeptical before I came here. Why did he allow me to pass through the veil? Either he didn't know that I would use my own brain to examine the universe, and find his presence lacking, in which case he's not much of a God...or he allowed it anyway simply for the sake of punishing me on judgment day. In that case he's nobody I'd want to know anyway, and I'd reject him on principle.


Originally posted by yishmael

God created me as a skeptic, and He's allowed me to use the free agency and the critical thinking skills with which He endowed me to become pretty confident that He doesn't exist...at least not in the way that the Mormons tell me he does.


Originally posted by yishmael

I thought I'd create a sandbox for further sound 'n' fury.



Originally posted by yishmael

Being a Mormon is similar to being a Jew. You never really get away from it, even if you want to. If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.



Originally posted by Janet Waters


I'm saying that you are either a believer or not. 
You profess to be an atheist........
therefore you are not a believer.


Originally posted by yishmael

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.


Well we are definately Christians....for we believe in Christ and teach his doctrine in plainness....  If you have a problem with Christ....
then this is not the belief system for you.


Here is a description of one who preaches against Christ and his doctrine.....

Book of Mormon | Alma 30:6 - 8
But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti–Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.
7  Now there was no law against a man's belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.
For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

Originally posted by Janet Waters

Brigham Young would be appalled with that claim.

This is insane!  There is only one Church by the name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or otherwise known as The Mormon Church).

All other organizations who claim that they are.........are deceivers and are in reality anti-mormon....whether or not they smart enough to figure that out! 

People who are ex-communicated from the Church.........are no longer associated with us and are not members of the same faith.  They can get their own identity through another organization who call themselves another name.  AND NOT MADE-UP COMBINATIONS OF OUR NAME--- WHICH ARE BEING USED TO DECEIVE THEMSELVES AND/OR OTHERS INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE MEMBERS OF OUR CHURCH.

If you want to follow your own doctrines........do it with another name.


You either believe in God or not. 
Mormons believe in God....
there is no such thing as an atheist Mormon.


Those who don't live the doctrine, can't live the doctrine, or those who don't believe the doctrine are known as Jack-Mormons.  These people are inactive members, who have yet to be excommunicated or ask for their names to be taken off the Church roles because they don't want to be contacted by Church Leaders.  There is no such thing as an atheist Mormon.....the term is either Jack-Mormon, Apostate, or an Excommunicated former member.



Originally posted by yishmael

D. Michael Quinn is a "Mormon" because he was born into a Mormon family and he still calls himself one. He's smarter than both of us and I trust him to know enough about himself to describe himself accurately. Whether or not his name is on the membership roster in SLC is of no consequence whatever. The fact that Janet Waters doesn't recognize him as a "Mormon" means absolutely nothing to everyone, with the possible exception of "Janet Waters".


All Mormon's are not descendants of Brigham Young.  Just because an adult was born to parents (who believed in Mormon doctrine and made covenants to God)....doesn't make that person a true believer by default.  We are not saved by the faithfulness of our parents.  We are responsible for our own choices.

You have to have that belief system yourself.  If a person does not and/or is excommunicated his/her name is blotted off of the membership of the Church.  Faith and works are required of a believer.  If one does not have this and then calls them self an atheist.....that person is not apart of us....but against us.

Originally posted by yishmael

Sorry. RLDS, FLDS and others do have a historical and legitimate claim to the word "Mormon", whether or not they embrace it. As does D. Michael Quinn and others who may have been excommunicated from the Brighamite faction.


Like I said.....they have been excommunicated from us because their beliefs which are not in keeping of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  They have apostatized from the teachings of Mormon Church so therefore they have been put away from us (excommunicated). 

We are not responsible for anything that these people have done or will do in the name of religion.  They have to deal with that...and move on to find another belief system that supports their beliefs and actions.  But it is not with us.  A bill of devorsement has been issued forth.  Move on. 


Originally posted by yishmael

Whether you and Janet like it or not, I'll continue to define myself by the *Mormon* label, which is my birthright. If I'm ever interested in your own interpretation, I'll look for the "Church of sbananamarie11" and see about ending meetings. Until then, you'll just have to deal with it.


It is not a birthright....it is a privilege....which privilege has been lost and withheld.  I am sorry that this is not the mutual feeling towards some who can't live without the Church.  Either shape up....or be shipped out.

You are looking for the doctrines of the Church to conform to who you are and how you want to live.  This is not the function of the Church......it may be acceptable at  to other religious institutions........but it is not acceptable to the Lord and his kingdom on the earth.

Conform yourself to God's will or move on to another organization that is set up to support people as they are looking to be supported in their various ways.  If you have received your identity from claiming to be a Mormon.....this is a good break from living a lie....and truly looking in the mirror and not to use an organization to support your identity.  I know it is scary to loose your identity, however, the identity that you have depended on is not real in the first place.  So see this as a blessing to know yourself and choose this day whom you will serve....yourself or God.

 


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 4:52pm
Janet

Does the phrase 'give it a rest' ring a bell with you?


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Janet

Does the phrase 'give it a rest' ring a bell with you?


If you had a person who was an atheist who was attempting to represent you and your beliefs....would you lay down and be a door mat?  What about a terrorist who is claiming to the world that Islam is terrorism.....thus opening you and your family to yet more prejustices?

If you had come across an impersonator who had accessed your bank would you not defend yourself?  Where I lay my treasure is far greater than any bank account.






Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:12pm
I understand where you are coming from but at this point you've called him every name in the book!  Just leave it alone... What do you get out of this?  

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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I understand where you are coming from but at this point you've called him every name in the book!  Just leave it alone... What do you get out of this?


I am revealing his position for what it is....an impostor.  If that position reveals something personally about him.....oh well.




Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by jamilahz

Janet

Does the phrase 'give it a rest' ring a bell with you?


If you had a person who was an atheist who was attempting to represent you and your beliefs....would you lay down and be a door mat?  What about a terrorist who is claiming to the world that Islam is terrorism.....thus opening you and your family to yet more prejustices?

If you had come across an impersonator who had accessed your bank would you not defend yourself?  Where I lay my treasure is far greater than any bank account.



Oh LOL! LOL! LOL!

First it was "your mind is warped...probably by something like pornography or illegal drugs". Now it's "Atheism is akin to terrorism!"

You are a truly obsessed looney who is pretending to be a Mormon.

I am a faithful Latter-Day Saint who is openly skeptical about God as an exalted man, who grew up on another planet, and The Book of Abraham.

If you feel you need to "defend yourself" from honest theological discussions, be my guest. Let me quote J. Reuben Clark, who said:
"If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed."



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Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I understand where you are coming from but at this point you've called him every name in the book!  Just leave it alone... What do you get out of this?  


Let's forget about the obsessive personalities for a moment. I can't believe that no one here has asked a serious question about Mormon doctrine and theology.

Given that Sister Waters has quoted troublesome material which has long since been deprecated, I think it's appropriate to open up the discussion to a serious dialogue about all the peculiar teachings in Mormonism.

If you, or anyone, would like to ask a historical or theological question about Mormonism, please feel free. We'll turn this into a serious thread on our own, with or without the approval of our resident missionaries.


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Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:34pm
Yishmael

Its not that we have not tried to question those things but after a while you just get sick of the same ol' answers.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Yishmael

Its not that we have not tried to question those things but after a while you just get sick of the same ol' answers.


Admittedly, this whole discussion hasn't been worth that much. If it's worth anything, it does suggest that my interpretation of Mormonism is much more grounded in the real world than Sister Waters'.

I will never give anyone the same old answers they would get from an internet apologist or a doe-eyed teenage missionary. I'll give you the truth, backed up by objective references.

So, if you ever wanted to play Ask A Mormon Anything, here's your chance.


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Posted By: Forum Cop
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 6:01pm
you can finish discussing your differences in PM's
 
closing.



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