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What would offend God most ? (hypothetically)

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Topic: What would offend God most ? (hypothetically)
Posted By: Damo808
Subject: What would offend God most ? (hypothetically)
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 7:02pm
 
 I mean no offense by the suggestions below. But essentially this is the vice verca in each of our respective beliefs about the other. So think of it as more keeping it brief but blunt.
 
What would be more offensive to God hypothetically speaking.
 
  If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself ? 
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5



Replies:
Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:07pm
Well this is tough to explain, but I think that if we continue to worship the One True God with NO partners we are ok. 

Also the way you put this is kind of funny actually.  Its like when you want someone to choose what you want them too  you say 'would you like to go to the happy fun place (happy voice)? or the mean bad place (sad voice)?'

According to Islam one of the worst sins you can commit is shirk - associating partners with Allah. 


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:12pm
Well... how would you have phrased it...? serious not rhetorical,   Whats inaccurate about what i've said ?
 
"According to Islam one of the worst sins you can commit is shirk - associating partners with Allah. "
 
 I'm thinking of the concequences of,  if what one believe's in is false though ? what  carries the greater concequence or offence to God, so i'm speaking outside scripture if you like. Equally  if a Christian were to deny the Triune God  from being a believer to a denier and does so conciously denying the gospel as truth, carries great sin becoming a heretic. But what if this were false ? So i'm looking at the consequence of what would be more offensive to "A" God who we both agree is a "loving" and "compassionate" God who does not surely punish good hearted people who through honest ignorance mis-understood or were decieved about God's intention by others, and yet provides for them a place in hell. On that we both agree, for Islam does also teach that some People of the Book reach Paradise .


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:22pm
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound bad... its not wrong, just you made the Christian option sound all happy and good and the Muslim one sound kind of crudy...

f one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?

Could also be said:

If one wrongly denied that he had a son, attributing all power and might only to God and not attributing human attributes to him.




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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Damo808

If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself ? 
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
How about
 
If one wrongly believed that God had a son, attributing human qualities to the One Divine who had commanded worship of God alone without partners?
 
Or if one wrongly denied that God had a son, adhereing instead to the message which God sent from the beginning of time telling mankind to worship God alone without any partners?


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound bad... its not wrong, just you made the Christian option sound all happy and good and the Muslim one sound kind of crudy...

f one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?

Could also be said:

If one wrongly denied that he had a son, attributing all power and might only to God and not attributing human attributes to him.


 
 I Really do see your point here Jamilahz .. But if on the other hand , when Jesus finally returns as again we both believe.. 
 
 Which would be the greater offence ? To have denied He was God's Son before Him and In His Father's presence .
 
 Or to have attributed to Him the title God Son of the Almighty falsely, him being no more than a mortal human. Under the watchfull eye of Allah ?


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:58pm
"telling mankind to worship God alone without any partners?"
 
 Amy... other partners really only means without any helpers, as in other lesser gods or demi gods, like the ancient greeks believed regarding their pluralistic idea of many gods some more powefull than others. When God says, I Am alone. means there is only One God. Christians believe Jesus is OF the Father , as is the Spirit. Jesus in the Gospel's is God's litteral word, which is of God the Father. The Spirit Of God is Of the Father AND the Son. Therefore, is the Word of God anything less than Divine ? Or the litteral Spirit of God something below God ? Thats the Christian perspective ofcourse.I don't want to argue about the nature of God that's still kickin on probably three other current threads already.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Originally posted by Damo808

If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself ? 
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
How about
 
If one wrongly believed that God had a son, attributing human qualities to the One Divine who had commanded worship of God alone without partners?
 
Or if one wrongly denied that God had a son, adhereing instead to the message which God sent from the beginning of time telling mankind to worship God alone without any partners?


You said it much better than I did!


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound bad... its not wrong, just you made the Christian option sound all happy and good and the Muslim one sound kind of crudy...

f one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?

Could also be said:

If one wrongly denied that he had a son, attributing all power and might only to God and not attributing human attributes to him.


 
 I Really do see your point here Jamilahz .. But if on the other hand , when Jesus finally returns as again we both believe.. 
 
 Which would be the greater offence ? To have denied He was God's Son before Him and In His Father's presence .
 
 Or to have attributed to Him the title God Son of the Almighty falsely, him being no more than a mortal human. Under the watchfull eye of Allah ?


You know, I don't really know.  I'm as sure of my belief as you are of yours.  I know that Allah did not have a son or a partner.  But you feel differently.  only Allah knows.


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www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 1:51am

Damo, I'm sorry but I think that the question is just sort of fundamentally flawed, about whether you want to believe God has a son, or if you don't believe that. Muslims don't really look at the world that way.

What Muslims do see is that God is Eternal, and Changeless, and that human nature and fundamental human needs stay the same. and there should only be one true religion coming from the One, Same God.
 
So what doesn't make sense is that after thousands of years of one religion... that it would change...
 
See?


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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 2:46am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Damo, I'm sorry but I think that the question is just sort of fundamentally flawed, about whether you want to believe God has a son, or if you don't believe that. Muslims don't really look at the world that way.

What Muslims do see is that God is Eternal, and Changeless, and that human nature and fundamental human needs stay the same. and there should only be one true religion coming from the One, Same God.
 
So what doesn't make sense is that after thousands of years of one religion... that it would change...
 
See?
 
I admit the question is fundamentaly flawed, which is why i'm asking it from a hypothetical point of view. Albeit  the way tye question is phrased could be debated for eons in here. Christians don't view the world that way either . But i can still detach myself enougn to ponder on most things. 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Nura
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:24am
Well, I don't think God could be offended by anything, because He is above anything we say.
 
But to answer your question, I would say: if you adhore Jesus, you are committing a sin from the Islamic point of view.
From the Christian point of view, if you don't adhore Jesus as God's son, who will going to be offended? Jesus or God?


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Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran


Posted By: eldon
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 
 
  If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself
 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret those words as meaning "God adored Jesus so much that He made Jesus equal to Himself" !
 
As Nura pointed out though, only God is worthy of adoration.
 
Jesus adored the Father, whom he called "my God and your God", but there is no record in the Bible of the Father adoring Jesus.
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
The necessity in this second case is for one to rightly recognize what the term "Son of God" means, in order to avoid denigrating the character of the Most High by implying that He begets children, as so many pagan gods are alleged to have done, i.e. implying that He carnally impregnates women.
 
As a title of honor, from the Jewish historical perspective, there is no problem with the term Son of God; however, in addressing the pagan perspective of most people in the world, it is imperative to emphasize that Allah does not beget children as their gods are alleged to have done.
 
The Quran is addressed to all the people of the world, not just to those with a Jewish or Christian perspective, and therefore lays the proper emphasis on denying physical begetting on Allah's part, though it does acknowledge both the honored status of Jesus and his miraculous conception. 
 
Furthermore, since the Quran portrays Allah as Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds, it amplifies and aligns with the title of Father given Him in the NT to show His Care for all Creation.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2083966/Confirming-the-Glory - Islam - Islam


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 1:20pm
Here's another thought for you, Damo. If a person were to raise Jesus equal to God and worship Jesus, then he would be committing the worst sin in Islam, a sin that God even says He doesn't forgive.

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http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 3:26pm
How can a God be offended by anything?

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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: jana.z
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 3:43pm
my question is, how can any of us even guess what would offend God.

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And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

http://myimmatureviewpoint.blogspot.com/
http://solomuslimah.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 4:19pm
Eldon :
 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret those words as meaning "God adored Jesus so much that He made Jesus equal to Himself" !
 
As Nura pointed out though, only God is worthy of adoration.
 
Jesus adored the Father, whom he called "my God and your God", but there is no record in the Bible of the Father adoring Jesus.
 
 
Damo:
Eldon.... the point i was making was not based on scripture i think you missed the whole point.
 The point is, what i have written is what Christians believe... not looking to poke into to scripture to put forth an argument. Its a purely philosophical question, based on pure hypothesis. Christians BELIEVE he was adored by the Father the apple of His eye in that respect. Hypothetically we may be wrong to believe this. I'm only looking for opinion on the same vice versa hypothesis with Islam .For direct word for word quotations, like Jesus said "He was God" , i'm going beyond that to the point of ... what the over-all majority believe  about the nature of God. To what the overall majority of Muslims believe, as in what common overall reflection of Allah, Muslims generally hold ingrained in them from the Quran. Going beyond these core beliefs. What hypothetically would be the most offensive to God.
 
 some believe i have  phrased the question with a 5lb mash hammer .. but there's middle ground somewhere.. i'd say for both sides of such an argument there would need to be some fine tuning with some acknowleging of sensitivity on either side.
 
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Here's another thought for you, Damo. If a person were to raise Jesus equal to God and worship Jesus, then he would be committing the worst sin in Islam, a sin that God even says He doesn't forgive.
 
 That confuses me because although i know its a grave sin as you say. Though the Quran does teach that some people of the book  enter paradise.
 
]
Originally posted by Bill2702

How can a God be offended by anything?
 
http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=32&l=22&f=s#x - Exodus 32

22 And he answered him: Let not my lord be offended: for thou knowest this people, that they are prone to evil.

  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=30&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x - Baruch 3  8: And behold we are at this day in our captivity, whereby thou hast scattered us to be a reproach, and a curse, and an offence, according to all the iniquities of our fathers, who departed from thee, O Lord our God.
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=24&l=16&f=s#x - Acts Of Apostles 24

16 And herein do I endeavour to have always a conscience without offence toward God, and towards men

  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=5&l=17&f=s#x - Romans 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

 If sin does not offend God, then why warn against it. Disobedience to God by any standards be it Christian or Islamic is a personal offence towards God
 
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

How can a God be offended by anything?
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=32&l=22&f=s#x - Exodus 32

22 And he answered him: Let not my lord be offended: for thou knowest this people, that they are prone to evil.

 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=30&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x - Baruch 3  8: And behold we are at this day in our captivity, whereby thou hast scattered us to be a reproach, and a curse, and an offence, according to all the iniquities of our fathers, who departed from thee, O Lord our God.
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=24&l=16&f=s#x - Acts Of Apostles 24

16 And herein do I endeavour to have always a conscience without offence toward God, and towards men

  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=5&l=17&f=s#x - Romans 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

 If sin does not offend God, then why warn against it. Disobedience to God by any standards be it Christian or Islamic is a personal offence towards God


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: desertdude
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 5:58pm
 Ok not to answer a question with a question ,I would like to ask/elaborate a littl futher what Sis Nurs said .If you dont adore jesus as gods son or just as much ,who would be offened more.Jesus or God ?or the holy ghost ?


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We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by desertdude

 Ok not to answer a question with a question ,I would like to ask/elaborate a littl futher what Sis Nurs said .If you dont adore jesus as gods son or just as much ,who would be offened more.Jesus or God ?or the holy ghost ?
 
 
 DD.. we agree on very little, but at least you can relate to the hypothesis, and come in with a related hypothetical response. And you ask a fair enough question.
 
 I guess if from the Christian perspective. It is to the delight of the Father that His Son is adored by humanity. For if in the hypothesis the Christian perspective is right, then it must follow that it was intended to have been that way by God the Father. Further its a belief of both Muslims and Christians that Christ will return albeit on differing terms, but ultimately if again by this hypothesis Jesus is God, it can be assumed that he could be offended, but ultimately in the position to forgive.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Bill2702

How can a God be offended by anything?
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=32&l=22&f=s#x - Exodus 32

22 And he answered him: Let not my lord be offended: for thou knowest this people, that they are prone to evil.

 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=30&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x - Baruch 3  8: And behold we are at this day in our captivity, whereby thou hast scattered us to be a reproach, and a curse, and an offence, according to all the iniquities of our fathers, who departed from thee, O Lord our God.
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=24&l=16&f=s#x - Acts Of Apostles 24

16 And herein do I endeavour to have always a conscience without offence toward God, and towards men

  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=5&l=17&f=s#x - Romans 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

 If sin does not offend God, then why warn against it. Disobedience to God by any standards be it Christian or Islamic is a personal offence towards God
 
 
The act of taking offense is an emotional one. Yet the religions state that God is above being influenced by or having any human attributes. The word offense implies insult, indignation and typically leads to revenge, retribution, all very much attributes of human nature. So if God is above all these things then then the word is not offense but something else. It would seem to me that God simply judges according to the rules he has set for the weighing up of the fate of a human. To call it offense diminishes God to a being controlled by emotion which for one who has no faults (according to religion) would be impossible.
 
 


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: struggle
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 1:57pm

God has humanity holy wisdom in the bible so some of it could not be exactly what it is. Maybe he put what is acceptable or not. So basically the reality could be the allusion of God's control. I think this punishment of God is part of the allusion too but its true, wise, and thought out. Possible of all this God could be aiming or creating the future and not the present or past which we hold on to make our future better.



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EYE FOR EYE


Posted By: Islamway
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 2:17pm
You can't guess what would offend someone unless you know him .. The only thing through which we know God is his words (scriptures) .. there are many gods out there who have different attributes than the Abrahamic God.
 


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Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 2:26pm
You might want to think a bit about what you just said Islamway.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Bill2702

How can a God be offended by anything?
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=32&l=22&f=s#x - Exodus 32

22 And he answered him: Let not my lord be offended: for thou knowest this people, that they are prone to evil.

 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=30&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x - Baruch 3  8: And behold we are at this day in our captivity, whereby thou hast scattered us to be a reproach, and a curse, and an offence, according to all the iniquities of our fathers, who departed from thee, O Lord our God.
 
  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=24&l=16&f=s#x - Acts Of Apostles 24

16 And herein do I endeavour to have always a conscience without offence toward God, and towards men

  http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=5&l=17&f=s#x - Romans 5

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

 If sin does not offend God, then why warn against it. Disobedience to God by any standards be it Christian or Islamic is a personal offence towards God
 
 
The act of taking offense is an emotional one. Yet the religions state that God is above being influenced by or having any human attributes. The word offense implies insult, indignation and typically leads to revenge, retribution, all very much attributes of human nature. So if God is above all these things then then the word is not offense but something else. It would seem to me that God simply judges according to the rules he has set for the weighing up of the fate of a human. To call it offense diminishes God to a being controlled by emotion which for one who has no faults (according to religion) would be impossible.
 
 
 
 
 
Bill... before i respond .. do you have any religious leanings ? What are they ?
 
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:10am
Hi Damo,
 
For the purpose of this discussion the answer is no. It depends on how you define religious.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Hi Damo,
 
For the purpose of this discussion the answer is no. It depends on how you define religious.
 
 
  Well i could understand your perspective had you been Muslim.
 But as a Christian, i believe if God is a God of compassion and mercy, these traits suggest to me that there is a part of God in us rather than a part of us in God. Other traits such as anger belong to God as well as humans. It is human dis-obedience which causes God to be angry. Anger in the human sense is as much an emotional term as happyness. We also see that there are times when God is angry , he can me "moved" to re-consider and show a more merciful side. This is true in Judges 2 :12-19.
 This verse demonstrates that God does have what may be considered emotion. Again i believe that human concepts such as emotion, concsience etc are things embodied in us which are also in God also. I don't think this hints towards any kind of weakness, but demonstrates that He did infact create us in a way that is reflective of Himself IMO. Which is why when i say offend God, i don't suggest God is struggling to come to terms emotionaly with what man does but, can empathise with humanity enough to akcnowlege offence.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 7:13pm
If god could be offended at all, i believe that he would be offended by the way that most of his so called believers behave.

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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Here's another thought for you, Damo. If a person were to raise Jesus equal to God and worship Jesus, then he would be committing the worst sin in Islam, a sin that God even says He doesn't forgive.
If i can forgive someone for such a thing, and god cannot...would that not make me more forgiving than him; at least in this circumstance?


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 3:26am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Bill2702

Hi Damo,
 
For the purpose of this discussion the answer is no. It depends on how you define religious.
 
 
  Well i could understand your perspective had you been Muslim.
 But as a Christian, i believe if God is a God of compassion and mercy, these traits suggest to me that there is a part of God in us rather than a part of us in God. Other traits such as anger belong to God as well as humans. It is human dis-obedience which causes God to be angry. Anger in the human sense is as much an emotional term as happyness. We also see that there are times when God is angry , he can me "moved" to re-consider and show a more merciful side. This is true in Judges 2 :12-19.
 This verse demonstrates that God does have what may be considered emotion. Again i believe that human concepts such as emotion, concsience etc are things embodied in us which are also in God also. I don't think this hints towards any kind of weakness, but demonstrates that He did infact create us in a way that is reflective of Himself IMO. Which is why when i say offend God, i don't suggest God is struggling to come to terms emotionaly with what man does but, can empathise with humanity enough to akcnowlege offence.
 
Hi,
 
Does that not conflict with the concept of the perfection of God? Also you say that God can be moved to show mercy. Would that not inidicate that God is capable of doubting his own judgment?


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Bill2702

Hi Damo,
 
For the purpose of this discussion the answer is no. It depends on how you define religious.
 
 
  Well i could understand your perspective had you been Muslim.
 But as a Christian, i believe if God is a God of compassion and mercy, these traits suggest to me that there is a part of God in us rather than a part of us in God. Other traits such as anger belong to God as well as humans. It is human dis-obedience which causes God to be angry. Anger in the human sense is as much an emotional term as happyness. We also see that there are times when God is angry , he can me "moved" to re-consider and show a more merciful side. This is true in Judges 2 :12-19.
 This verse demonstrates that God does have what may be considered emotion. Again i believe that human concepts such as emotion, concsience etc are things embodied in us which are also in God also. I don't think this hints towards any kind of weakness, but demonstrates that He did infact create us in a way that is reflective of Himself IMO. Which is why when i say offend God, i don't suggest God is struggling to come to terms emotionaly with what man does but, can empathise with humanity enough to akcnowlege offence.
 
Hi,
 
Does that not conflict with the concept of the perfection of God? Also you say that God can be moved to show mercy. Would that not inidicate that God is capable of doubting his own judgment?
 
 
 I can't see why any of what i said makes God imperfect at all, my view of God is a God who can sympathise with mankind, and cherishes mankind, with all his imperfections. Not a God who is intolerant of that which is less than Divine.
 As for doubting His own judgement. Its not that He doubts his judgement, what is judged by Him is ultimately Just. But he can be moved towards showing mercy when mankind recognise their error, and prays for forgiveness.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 1:48pm
Well a perfect God would never need to reconsider a decision having (perfectly) judged in the first instance. Being all knowing God would know of the repentence and would judge according to the overall picture of a human's existence, not continually judge at every turn of events. Why be offended when you know the person will make it right in a few days (or years). Therefore the concept of being moved to be merciful is null and void. If he is all knowing then he knows your judgment before you are born. If he changes his mind in a way that alters his knowledge of the future then he is not all knowing. If he knows he will change his mind and what that change will mean then he is hasn't been moved. We may see it that way but He wouldn't.
 
I'm going to lie down now cuz my head hurts.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Islamway
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

You might want to think a bit about what you just said Islamway.
 
What do you mean?


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Posted By: jana.z
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 2:57pm
[QUOTE=Islamway] there are many gods out there who have different attributes than the Abrahamic God.
 /QUOTE]
 
 
i think this is what he meant IW.


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And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

http://myimmatureviewpoint.blogspot.com/
http://solomuslimah.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Well a perfect God would never need to reconsider a decision having (perfectly) judged in the first instance. Being all knowing God would know of the repentence and would judge according to the overall picture of a human's existence, not continually judge at every turn of events. Why be offended when you know the person will make it right in a few days (or years). Therefore the concept of being moved to be merciful is null and void. If he is all knowing then he knows your judgment before you are born. If he changes his mind in a way that alters his knowledge of the future then he is not all knowing. If he knows he will change his mind and what that change will mean then he is hasn't been moved. We may see it that way but He wouldn't.
 
I'm going to lie down now cuz my head hurts.
 
 
  I know what your saying... but your idea of a perfect God is different from mine. God is perfect... When God asks us to repent, do you think he wants us to do an action which then just qualifies you to be forgiven ? No, repentance must be from the heart. He is our Father after all. Your interpretation of God to me conveys a compassion-less God. To change his mind is His will.  I know what your mean about the paradox of all knowing. But God is also infinately merciful we are told. But if everyones inperfect then who goes to hell. Surely God judges us on circumstance regarding how we come into the world as individuals and from how we are raised which shapes us as moral human beings .One man's ignorant bliss  is another man's envy. Ehch is judged by their heart ultimately.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 1:40pm
Another paradox.
 
Why would an infinitely merciful God need or want a Hell? Infinite is one step further than always so nobody is going to hell.
 
 


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Another paradox.
 
Why would an infinitely merciful God need or want a Hell? Infinite is one step further than always so nobody is going to hell.
 
 
 
 No... not a paradox. Some people commit henious acts in full knowledge of what they are doing in regards to sin, are brought up knowing right from wrong and basically have no excuses. Yet the concequence of what they do has absolutely no bearing on them.


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 1:03pm
Therefore there is a limit to the mercy of God (rightly or wrongly) so His
mercy is not infinite.
 
I would question how you know how "some people" are motivated. Defining that somone has sinned is one thing, knowing why is a very different thing.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Bill2702

Therefore there is a limit to the mercy of God (rightly or wrongly) so His
mercy is not infinite.
 
I would question how you know how "some people" are motivated. Defining that somone has sinned is one thing, knowing why is a very different thing.
 
 
 Ok .. a classic example is St Paul, a devout Jew , who prior to his conversion  believed that his percecution of Christians was right in the sight of God. Hypothetically if he hadn't been converted he could have continued this percecution until his own death, but due to his ignorance been most likely have been forgiven by God. This is what i mean by infinately merciful. The most henious crimes can be commited by individuals who don't grasp the gravity of what they are doing, even from the Christian perspective , those who crucified Christ. However there are people out there who chose to do evil for evil's sake having full awareness of their sin  thats where the difference lies.
 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5



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