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Logical/Moral Dilemma #1

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Topic: Logical/Moral Dilemma #1
Posted By: Bill2702
Subject: Logical/Moral Dilemma #1
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:53pm

A young man dies at age 27. His upbringing lacked even the most basic of the moral values of the average of society's norm. That is the fault of his family and those generally close to him.

We now know that these influences are key to the person we become.
 
Another man in the same situation regarding his upbringing lives to 90 and over that time changes gradually to become aware and repentent for his deeds.

 

How is time measured in terms of it's effect on the mercy of God?

 


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.



Replies:
Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

A young man dies at age 27. His upbringing lacked even the most basic of the moral values of the average of society's norm. That is the fault of his family and those generally close to him.

We now know that these influences are key to the person we become.
 
Another man in the same situation regarding his upbringing lives to 90 and over that time changes gradually to become aware and repentent for his deeds.
How is time measured in terms of it's affect on the mercy of God?



If an individual was not taught what was right or wrong before the age of accountability (age 8) the sins that they commit are placed upon the parents.  After an individual reaches the age of accountability, they become accountable for their own actions.

I know that God is just and merciful and will take into account why we do the things that we do.  He is the only one, who can see what is written in our hearts.  If we don't know that something is wrong and do it...it is considered a "transgression."  In other words, that action broke a commandment, without the understanding and knowledge to make a better choice. 

If a person knows what is right and wrong and willfully choices the wrong....this thing is considered a "sin" in God's eyes.  To sin is to willfully rebell against God rejecting him.  What will matter in the end is what is in our heart....for we will be judged according to the condition of our heart.  The things that are in our heart cause the things that we do with our thoughts and therefore our hands and feet.





Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:50pm
Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:54pm
Allah is just.  He will judge according to a person's environment, age, etc.

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


Would you rather ascribe to the Original Sin theory....and believe that all babies are born as sinful before they have the ability to sin?

The age of accountablity happens when an individual reaches the maturity, in which they are accountable for their own actions.  If a person is more or less mature at that time, they receive the ability according to their natural growth.  (Those who are retarded and never reach the mental maturity of an eight year old, will not be accountable for their actions).

Gaining the ability to "know good from evil"....doesn't fit into the same category as  "worshiping God correctly."  A person has to be taught the true form of worship, whereas gaining the ability to know good from evil is gained through mental maturity (mental process/mental growth).

When Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil....their eyes became opened....and they gained the knowledge to differentiate between good and evil.


It is the same thing that happens to all children when they reach the years of accountability.....their eyes become opened...... and they have the power to see the difference....so therefore they are then accountable for their choices.







Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Allah is just.  He will judge according to a person's environment, age, etc.


Very well put!


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:35pm

Paying the price starts with your first breath.



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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


That would have been Joseph Smith.

http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/p/baptized_who.htm

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/27/#27



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Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by yishmael

That would have been Joseph Smith.


Well well now.....yishmael the "Anti-everything" is peeking over my shoulder and following me everywhere I go.  Here you are again....and again....and again.  It is someone else's turn to be harassed...






Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by Rachel25

Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


Would you rather ascribe to the Original Sin theory....and believe that all babies are born as sinful before they have the ability to sin?

The age of accountablity happens when an individual reaches the maturity, in which they are accountable for their own actions.  If a person is more or less mature at that time, they receive the ability according to their natural growth.  (Those who are retarded and never reach the mental maturity of an eight year old, will not be accountable for their actions).

Gaining the ability to "know good from evil"....doesn't fit into the same category as  "worshiping God correctly."  A person has to be taught the true form of worship, whereas gaining the ability to know good from evil is gained through mental maturity (mental process/mental growth).

When Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil....their eyes became opened....and they gained the knowledge to differentiate between good and evil.


It is the same thing that happens to all children when they reach the years of accountability.....their eyes become opened...... and they have the power to see the difference....so therefore they are then accountable for their choices.







Well, you're the one who said age 8.  And honestly, I believe all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin.  Even when I was Christian, I could not understand how people believed babies were sinful.


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

That would have been Joseph Smith.


Well well now.....yishmael the "Anti-everything" is peeking over my shoulder and following me everywhere I go.  Here you are again....and again....and again.  It is someone else's turn to be harassed...




Oh! Poor Janet! She's being "harassed".



As you might have noticed, my response wasn't directed at you. You might also notice that you're posting crypto-Mormonism on a public message board, directed at people who don't know the doctrine and aren't aware of it in toto. I'll continue to explain the details of the doctrines you're suggesting people adopt for as long as it amuses me to do so.

Hope this helps...

Yishmael


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Posted By: khany
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 9:40pm
hello Bill,

like brother Hamayoun said god is just. and he does not do the least injustice to anybody. the quran says:
(017:015)
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).

nobody is punished for what is beyond their knowledge or ability. we are only judged for things in which we have a choice. it does not matter how many years one lives. it is not a simple calculus. god knows best who have been warned. it is sufficient for us (muslims) to know that god is just.
(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 12:32pm
So on that basis the 27 year old will be forgiven because he was not responsible for his own upbringing?


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:11pm
Good question.  On this basis, everyone should go to Heaven.  People who believe and have faith, believe and have faith.  This alone should be enough for people to be forgiven, people believe with their heart and soul, or don't believe at all and that's their own belief...  how can people be held accountable for their upbringing, environment, being brought up in the wrong faith, or their lack of beliefs?  Doesn't seem fair.  


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Well, you're the one who said age 8.  And honestly, I believe all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin.  Even when I was Christian, I could not understand how people believed babies were sinful.
 
Yes I did.  Of course all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin....for they don't have the ability to sin.  (I'm not a "Original Sin" theory advocate).
 
In order to sin....a person has to have "knowledge between good and evil" just like Adam and Eve had after they partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
 
After an individual is born......there comes a time that individual becomes acountable for their actions.  I was stating that time doesn't come until after the age of 8 depending on the maturity of the individual.
 
 


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by khany

hello Bill,

like brother Hamayoun said god is just. and he does not do the least injustice to anybody. the quran says:
(017:015)
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).

nobody is punished for what is beyond their knowledge or ability. we are only judged for things in which we have a choice. it does not matter how many years one lives. it is not a simple calculus. god knows best who have been warned. it is sufficient for us (muslims) to know that god is just.
(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.
 
I agree.......very well put!
 
 


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by yishmael

blah...blah.....blah....Hope this helps...Yishmael
 
No thank you
 
 


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

So on that basis the 27 year old will be forgiven because he was not responsible for his own upbringing?
 
Some believe that when we get to the Judgment Bar, all the bad choices will be weighed against all the good choices, and if the good out-weigh the bad----they are then issued into heaven (thus forgiven).
 
My understanding....is that this is not really what will happen.
 
How I see it....is that our life will be reviewed and we will learn by observing what our choices were and how they affected ourselves/others vs. what could have been a better choice for all. 
 
However, I believe what we will be judged for......is the condition of our heart.  For the intentions that caused us to do what we did or did not do.  What our true motives were behind our actions.
 
The focus would be more on what was in our heart.....that caused us to think the thoughts and then choose the actions.  Thoughts and actions are really bi-products that orignate from the beliefs that we hold in our heart.  If a person's desire (in his heart) is to please God.....but their actions seem to show otherwise.....a lack of knowledge and understanding may be the problem (instead of rebellion against God).
 
This is why God is the most supreme Judge of All.  For he knows what is written in our hearts...he knows WHY we do what we do.  The WHY's will all be taken into account in that final judgment.
 
So our KNOWLEDGE between good and evil is essential in the final outcome.  However it goes deeper than this for we are aware of our conscious motives.....but not our unconscious motives.  Many times, we are compelled to do things out of fear of not being good enough or loved enough---all the problems that were caused by our relationships and the environments that we grew up in.....will not be over-looked.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Good question.  On this basis, everyone should go to Heaven.  People who believe and have faith, believe and have faith.  This alone should be enough for people to be forgiven, people believe with their heart and soul, or don't believe at all and that's their own belief...  how can people be held accountable for their upbringing, environment, being brought up in the wrong faith, or their lack of beliefs?  Doesn't seem fair.  


That's a sentiment that both ibn-Rushd and his contemporary Moses Maimonides approached from the Muslim and Jewish angles.

In Jewish tradition, people who couldn't bring themselves to a literal belief in G-d were called "apikoros" (epicureans) and were condemned. Ibn-Rushd seemed to hold out hope that G-d created guys like us for his own purposes, and simply urged people of faith and practical atheists not to fight with one another, as he envisioned a G-d who was big enough to be approached in more than one way.

Many Christians have evolved similar ideas on their own. The local rector of the Episcopal church is a fan of the "universal salvation" idea. Hell, if it exists, is temporary, and in the end we're all going to be saved (whether we like it or not).


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Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

So on that basis the 27 year old will be forgiven because he was not responsible for his own upbringing?
 
Another point....
 
We are always responsible for our own choices, we can't shift the blame of what we do upon another person.  (We may think....that what we did was someone else's fault.....but we are responsible for the actions that we committ....no matter what others did to provoke us).  This is what Agency is all about....the freedom to choose---and every choice has a consequence. 
 
The consequences that we may suffer--fall under two categories:
(1) temporal consequences The Suffering we experience here in mortality, which was caused by our own choices and the choices of others that were inflicted upon us.
(2) Eternal consequences  The Suffering that will happen in immortality after earthlife is over.  This suffering is a result of willful disobedience that has not been repented of.  
 
In order to commit willful disobedience....a person has to KNOW what they are choosing....and make a conscious decision to do it.  Satan can entice us (tempt us) to commit that action....but it is ultimately our choice whether we do it nor not.  It is not given to Satan to tempt little children....for little children cannot sin.  Their eyes have not been opened in order to know the difference between good and evil.  It is the parents responsibility to teach them to choose the good and shun the "bad."  But they don't know what 'evil' is.....yet.
 
When a child has not reached the "years of accountablity" (birth to 8 years)....they are not ACCOUNTABLE to God when they don't "choose the right" (and break God's laws).  If the child breaks the laws of God during that time period because their parents have not taught them.....to choose the good and shun the bad......the parents will have to ACCOUNT to God for their children's behavior (eternal consequences the parents are responsible for).  For it is the parents responsibility to teach the children these things and if the parents do not....the sin is placed upon the parents' head. 
 
[A prime example of this is....... The story about Eli the High Priest and his sons recorded in the Old Testament.  Eli had not taught his sons in their tender years like he ought to have done....he was busy doing his priestly call.  As these sons grew, they continued to do bad things as young men and into their adulthood.
 
Eli was told by God to correct his adult sons----who were doing all sorts of evil in the name of the Church.  Their conduct caused great suffering to believers and kept others from coming to the truth themselves.
 
However, Eli refused to correct his sons....therefore the greater sin was placed upon his own head.  Eli then suffered for that choice both in this life....in loosing his sons as well as eternally loosing his sons in the next life.  Eli's disobedience towards God in not fufilling his parental responsibilities would become a great issue.  Then the responsibility he had in enabling his sons in their sins (which was a great stumbling block to others in and outside of the church) would also become an issue, because he would have to account for that in his own final judgment.]
 
Over and beyond the year of accountability....the child is now ACCOUNTABLE to keep God's commandments (to do what the child/adult feels is right based on his own understanding and the teachings of parents and leaders).  If the child has been taught what the commandments are, had parents that were good examples, and who mentored the child to do the same....that child will have greater power in choosing the good in their life as well as a greater responsibility in doing what they know to be right (whatever that is).
 
If we break the laws of God we receive the natural consequence for it.  These consequences may result in this life only and not in the next---based upon our KNOWLEDGE of what is right and wrong and also if we have repented for this action as we were in mortality.  A person can suffer in this life (because of lack of knowledge) and yet not suffer in the next--based on the righteous condition of their heart. 
 
In other words, when we do what we believe is right....we will be rewarded for it in the next life (the intentions of our heart was to choose the good).
 
If we do what we believe is wrong.....we will be judged for it in the next life (the intentions of our heart was to choose the evil).
 
Now the question is....What does God really determine is good and evil?  These things are recorded in the scriptures.  If we don't know, have not been taught, have different beliefs....we are still responsible for finding these things out.  When we do not keep these commandments, we will suffer the natural result of breaking these commandments in this life.  However, we may or may not be held accountable for these things in the next life.  (For we have to understand what is right and wrong in order to be held accountable for that knowledge at the Final Judgment).
 
REPENTANCE:  Changing from a sinful state to a "blameless" state.  A person may or may not be forgiven as they go through the repentance process.....this is God's judgment.  As we are truly sorry for what we have done, we will feel "godly sorrow" which leads us to want to repent.  We know that in order for God to forgive us we also need for forgive others.  Being grateful is also a sign a person is on the right path. 
 
 
When a person has worked all the way through the repentance process and their sins are forgiven....they can know this.....because the guilt is not there anymore.  In other words they will be aware that their sins were "remitted."  To receive a remittance of sin causes a person's guilt to be swept away.  
 
Many times, people have not totally worked through the whole process.... and the guilt is still there.  This may be caused because:
 
(1) We aren' t finished with the process yet, something is left undone. 
(2) Or that we have to forgive our self for what was done and have enough faith in God that he will forgive us. 
(3)  We haven't forgiven others their offenses to us yet. 
(4)  Some have a problem forgiving themself because they feel that they don't deserve to be forgiven. 
(5)  First we need to make restitution for our actions and set things straight.
(6)  We may need the counsel of our paster/minister/rabbi/bishop to help us.
(7)  We need the help of a mental health practioner. 
(8) For those who are Christians---having faith in the Atonement of Christ is central for us to believe that repentance is possible and this faith can also give us the strength to forgive our self.
 
When we are forgiven, God does not remember (hold accountable) that person for that action any more.  But he allows us to remember....so that we won't commit that offense again.  This knowledge is important....because we learn through trials and errors.  We have learned a valueable lesson that we can draw upon for future reference. 
 
After we have repented of these things---many of the consequences in this life still continue...however...in the next life we will not suffer the eternal consequences associated with that action.
 
 


Posted By: Sqaruesi
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Well, you're the one who said age 8.  And honestly, I believe all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin.  Even when I was Christian, I could not understand how people believed babies were sinful.
 
I don't understand your former difficulty.  No one has to teach a young child to be wayward in umpteen different ways, well before any "age of conscience" we might specify.


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"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 9:55pm
Me?  I was responding to someone else.  What do you mean my 'former difficulty'?


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 8:16pm
Little children need to be taught the difference between the right way  and the wrong way. 

Things like.....love instead of bite. 
Mommy can't read you a story if all the pages are ripped out of the book.
It's not safe to run into the street--hold Mommy's hand. 
Show us how nice you can be while we are gone.

However, little children don't have the ability to commit evil....for they don't have the mentality to know what evil is...in order to choose it. 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 8:20pm
Right from wrong has nothing to do with being sinful or not.  It's not a sin to run around in the street-it is an innocent act because the child does not know of the danger.  It's not sinful to rip the pages from a book-the child may like the way it sounds when it tears, and does not know this is property.  Biting is usually a defensive action, and it's certainly not sinful to defend yourself or your property (toys). 

Doing the things you mentioned has nothing to do with sin, or being sinful.


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Right from wrong has nothing to do with being sinful or not.  It's not a sin to run around in the street-it is an innocent act because the child does not know of the danger.  It's not sinful to rip the pages from a book-the child may like the way it sounds when it tears, and does not know this is property.  Biting is usually a defensive action, and it's certainly not sinful to defend yourself or your property (toys). 

Doing the things you mentioned has nothing to do with sin, or being sinful.


Exactly and that is my point..... 
Little children are not capable
of choosing evil or committing sin.






Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:10pm
So you do not believe children are born into sin, as many/most other Christians do?


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

So you do not believe children are born into sin, as many/most other Christians do?



No.  I do not believe in the "Original Sin" theory.




Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:27am

Wether they were Muslims ?

If yes then it doesn't matter how long they lived ...life is exams that is going to end in any  minutes..WE ARE TOLD THAT IT WILL END IN ANY MINUTES ...everyone get tested in his life and took a lot of chances to get back to God, God gave him a lot of signs and warning also he has gave him brain to think !
 
deeds by how it end ... a person can live all his life a kaffir and repent before he die and get into pradise and vice versa.


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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: bcgirl
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:48pm
Salam to everyone, i just noticed this topic so thought i would add my thought....i want to mention though firstly when janet waters responded and said a comment to the effect of an 8yr old not being at an accountable age, but at 27 to put in simple terms he is responsible for his own actions and certainly knows right from wrong at that age. and rachel25 responded that her 8 and 9yrs would burn in hell if they didint worship him correctly... that is a justisfiable answer  but what i read.....is that janet was actually saying that at age 8  before the accountable age(at this point it was the parents' to blame) and at age 27 was at the accountable age....may i just say that you can put a simple sentence on a piece of paper and 2 diff pp read it and they will give you 2 diff meanings as to what is written and what that meaning means to them from their personal perspective...i think there was a misunderstanding here, but maybe i'm wrong!! thats just what i read and what my interpretation was.... (i anylize things i read that are of interest to me so pardon for the novel) 
Now, Bill as far as these 2 individuals having the same upbringing and one sadly deprting at such a young age, unless we know all the facts how can we make such an informed decision to say well, he didint deserve to die at age 27 and he didnt deserve to live to be 90.
 
I beleive that God has a plan for us all as well as a contracted  time limit  of a physical being on this earth. when our time is up, its game over, and yes we all have had pp in our lives to go at young ages and what seemed to us an undeserving way to go, but we have to accept this,your question at first read seemed so profound but when i read a few of the comments and really thought about it myself, its left me a loss of words for a few reasons...was it your contention to have such little info to make an informed comment or were you wanting others to make up their own scenarios and stories as to what this persons' upbringing really was like an fill in our own blanks....  


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Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Wether they were Muslims ?

If yes then it doesn't matter how long they lived ...life is exams that is going to end in any  minutes..WE ARE TOLD THAT IT WILL END IN ANY MINUTES ...everyone get tested in his life and took a lot of chances to get back to God, God gave him a lot of signs and warning also he has gave him brain to think !
 
deeds by how it end ... a person can live all his life a kaffir and repent before he die and get into pradise and vice versa.


Well I don't believe in deathbed repentance.  For repentance is the process of changing one's very nature. 

If a person waits until they have lived the type of life that they chose to life-----and think that all they have to do is say they're sorry right before death.....they are sadly mistaken.  They think that they can have their cake, eat it, and not pay for it. 

In other words they want to choose their actions and avoid the natural consequences for those actions.  The purpose of repentance is not about being saved in our sins.....but about being saved from them.  A person has to be truly sorry for what was done enough to make restitution for it and right those wrongs......instead of refusing responsibility for their actions!!






Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 1:22pm
Hey BCG.
 
You thought about it for yourself. Mission accomplished.
 


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by mai moslemah

Wether they were Muslims ?

If yes then it doesn't matter how long they lived ...life is exams that is going to end in any  minutes..WE ARE TOLD THAT IT WILL END IN ANY MINUTES ...everyone get tested in his life and took a lot of chances to get back to God, God gave him a lot of signs and warning also he has gave him brain to think !
 
deeds by how it end ... a person can live all his life a kaffir and repent before he die and get into pradise and vice versa.


Well I don't believe in deathbed repentance.  For repentance is the process of changing one's very nature. 

If a person waits until they have lived the type of life that they chose to life-----and think that all they have to do is say they're sorry right before death.....they are sadly mistaken.  They think that they can have their cake, eat it, and not pay for it. 

In other words they want to choose their actions and avoid the natural consequences for those actions.  The purpose of repentance is not about being saved in our sins.....but about being saved from them.  A person has to be truly sorry for what was done enough to make restitution for it and right those wrongs......instead of refusing responsibility for their actions!!




 
 
I dont believe in deathbed repentence either...it is not allowed in Islam ... this is not what i meant ...what i meant is a person can live 70 years disbelieving in God then accept Islam and lived his life tell death a Muslim .He will be from people of paradise ...life is an exams and its result depend on the way u end it


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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

i want to mention though firstly when janet waters responded and said a comment to the effect of an 8yr old not being at an accountable age, but at 27 to put in simple terms he is responsible for his own actions and certainly knows right from wrong at that age.


Yes....

0-8 years old
The parents/guardians/care givers are held accountable to God for the actions of the children they are caring for.  They are also held responsible for what they taught the child concerning what is right and what is wrong.

8+ years old
As the child grows up, they become accountable to God for their own actions.  However, their knowledge and understanding is based upon the experiences that they have had growing up.  The teachings of life and the teachings of parents and leaders will have a great influence on their choices.....these beliefs will be taken into consideration by God in the final judgment. 

If it was the person's intention was to choose the right (but they didn't know what the right was).....then it will be accounted to them as choosing  righteousness. 

If it was the person's intention to choose the evil.....then it will be accounted to them as choosing the evil.

Our intentions rise from the beliefs and teachings that we hold in our heart.  Our thoughts and actions are derived from what is in our heart.  Many times people's intentions are to do good, however, in reality they are not "doing the good" because they lack the correct education and teaching from their childhood.




Originally posted by bcgirl

and rachel25 responded that her 8 and 9yrs would burn in hell if they didint worship him correctly... that is a justisfiable answer


I'm not sure exactly what rachel was stating.  However according to your interpretation of her remarks.....this would be a harsh belief to have.  If I had this belief and loved my children.....I would respond harshly to my children when they weren't doing "everything" right.  But that is not the way to accomplish the good in life....but in actuality fear is not a good motivator.  Fear and faith cannot be present at the same time.  Eventually those children will resent church and might choose to totally reject anything the church teaches and fall away into forbidden paths.  That of course is not what we want to provoke our children into doing.



Originally posted by bcgirl

but what i read.....is that janet was actually saying that at age 8  before the accountable age(at this point it was the parents' to blame) and at age 27 was at the accountable age....


Yes 0-8 the parents are accountable for child's actions, however, beyond this time, the individual becomes accountable for his/her own actions.  If that person eventually does things that are wrong----but don't understand what they are doing is wrong (based on lack of education) that will be taken into account in the final judgment.  God knows the intentions of our hearts he knows WHY we did what we did.  I believe that the final judgment will also be a time to reflect about the type of life we lived and learn from our successes as well as our mistakes.



Originally posted by bcgirl

Now, Bill as far as these 2 individuals having the same upbringing and one sadly deprting at such a young age, unless we know all the facts how can we make such an informed decision to say well, he didint deserve to die at age 27 and he didnt deserve to live to be 90.


I guess I missed that part, was Bill trying to understand why one person lived longer than another?  I don't believe that it is about people deserving to die.  This life is testing period...which is for the purpose of learning and growth...we learn both through trial and error.

 
Originally posted by bcgirl

I beleive that God has a plan for us all as well as a contracted  time limit  of a physical being on this earth. when our time is up, its game over, and yes we all have had pp in our lives to go at young ages and what seemed to us an undeserving way to go, but we have to accept this,your question at first read seemed so profound but when i read a few of the comments and really thought about it myself, its left me a loss of words for a few reasons...was it your contention to have such little info to make an informed comment or were you wanting others to make up their own scenarios and stories as to what this persons' upbringing really was like an fill in our own blanks....  


I also believe that God has a plan for us.  He sent us here to fulfill a specific mission and develop and learn certain things....thus incorporating these things into our character.  I know that God knows the time in which all these things will occur, however, I do not believe in predestination.  Instead, I believe in foreordination, we are foreordained to accomplish and learn specific things, however, it is our choice if we follow that plan or not.

When we get off the plan, I know that God sends sufficient help for us to get on the right track, and may even allow us more time as he sees fit.  I also know that the poor judgments we make can cause our life span to be shortened early too. 

For instance how we take care of our mind, our body, and the type of risks we take with our life may end it prematurely.  The poor judgments of others may also affect our life, ending it prematurely as well.  However, there are times, in which God will send heavenly (or earthly) help to stop and/or reduce these effects.

However, I know that God will not force any man into heaven.  The Highest Heaven is reserved for those who choose God's will over their own.  I know that we will be blessed to inherit our rightful inheritance within the Kingdom of heaven or else receive our rightful punishment, based upon the condition of our heart, our thoughts, and our actions.




Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

I dont believe in deathbed repentence either...it is not allowed in Islam ... this is not what i meant ...what i meant is a person can live 70 years disbelieving in God then accept Islam and lived his life tell death a Muslim .He will be from people of paradise ...life is an exams and its result depend on the way u end it.


To us it is not a matter if it is allowed.....it is a matter if God accepts it from the individual (generally speaking I would say that he does not).

I agree with you to a point. When the time of death occurs, the important thing is that we are moving forward and not backward.   It is about living what we know to be right.....to be living up to our conscience.

The end is important....but the means to the end is also important.

An individual who has not been successful in choosing the right for the first 70 years of their life.....has missed out on the process of forging their character through making righteous choices.  One who has remained faithful for a lifetime and has endured unto the end....well be better off in the next life.  For our knowledge and experiences that we gain in this life will rise with us in the resurrection.

I state this point, to make another point........

Inheriting a place in the Kingdom of Heaven is but a start.  But there are many rewards for the faithful.  Some believe that a person either inherits heaven or hell.  We don't teach this.....we know that there are many mansions in heaven and there are many rewards/treasures that await us.  There are three orders of heaven and one inherits their rightful place.

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:

1)  Celestial Order: [ETERNAL LIFE]
Those who inherit this, are they who overcame the flesh and endured to the end, they will live in the presence of God.

2)  Terrestrial Order: [Paradise]
Those who inherit this, are all the good people of the earth who tried to live the commandments, but weren't as loyal in living or defending the truth.

3)  Telestial Order:  [REST IN PEACE]
Those who didn't try to live the commandments and who had to suffer for their own sins, but were eventually redeemed from hell.  They are they who rest from mortal cares.

Then of course those who didn't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.....but were consigned to Outer Darkness (Hell) as their eternal punishment.  They are the sons and daughters of Perdition and He then claims them as his own.





Posted By: yishmael
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:17am
For those who might be curious about all this, I'll suggest that Janet Waters is now entering into post-Mormon theology here. I'm not familiar with any authorized teaching of the LDS church which goes so far as she has.

Originally posted by Janet Waters


3)  Telestial Order:  [REST IN PEACE]
Those who didn't try to live the commandments and who had to suffer for their own sins, but were eventually redeemed from hell.  They are they who rest from mortal cares.

Then of course those who didn't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.....but were consigned to Outer Darkness (Hell) as their eternal punishment.  They are the sons and daughters of Perdition and He then claims them as his own.



Does the church know that you're innovating doctrines and passing them off as legitimate, Janet? If you can back this new doctrine up with references, I'd love to see it. Otherwise it's safe to assume that you've simply come to a lot of personal conclusions on your own which don't exactly reconcile themselves with the teachings of the church.

Best,

Yishmael


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Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:25am
Originally posted by Bill2702

A young man dies at age 27. His upbringing lacked even the most basic of the moral values of the average of society's norm. That is the fault of his family and those generally close to him.

We now know that these influences are key to the person we become.
 
Another man in the same situation regarding his upbringing lives to 90 and over that time changes gradually to become aware and repentent for his deeds.

 

How is time measured in terms of it's effect on the mercy of God?


Okay, I see here the two examples....based on limited info about the two we can only assume what was in their hearts, minds, and how they lived their lives.

I believe in the two examples above, God's mercy is not measured by time.  Time has nothing to do with God's mercy.   It is the individual state of an person's heart....that causes God to extend additional mercy to us or not.  God knows what state the first individual would be, if he was allowed to live a longer life.  But basically, our what is in our heart is caused to be there from the very beginning of life and added upon as we age.

From the first incident, this person has transgressed the laws of God.  In other words, this person has broken the laws that God set up, and for the most part, he has done this in ignorance.  Ignorance is not an excuse....for we are commanded to see knowledge and he has not [sin of omission].  However, this individual will be judged upon what he knew to be right and if he was true to that knowledge.  Many of the things this person suffered, was caused by his own lack of information, however, in the next life this individual will rest from these mortal cares and may even inherit paradise.

The second incident, this person has transgressed and committed sins, however, he was aware of what he did and worked at repenting of those things throughout his life.  God's mercy comes about because this person repented of these things and because he did this, he allowed God to have a hand in guiding his life for the better.  So therefore, not only will he be blessed in the next life, but he was blessed here.  This person will inherit paradise or based on the condition of his heart, he may inherit Eternal Life (which is the greatest gift God has to offer the faithful).






Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

 
Now, Bill as far as these 2 individuals having the same upbringing and one sadly deprting at such a young age, unless we know all the facts how can we make such an informed decision to say well, he didint deserve to die at age 27 and he didnt deserve to live to be 90.
 
I beleive that God has a plan for us all as well as a contracted  time limit  of a physical being on this earth. when our time is up, its game over, and yes we all have had pp in our lives to go at young ages and what seemed to us an undeserving way to go, but we have to accept this,your question at first read seemed so profound but when i read a few of the comments and really thought about it myself, its left me a loss of words for a few reasons...was it your contention to have such little info to make an informed comment or were you wanting others to make up their own scenarios and stories as to what this persons' upbringing really was like an fill in our own blanks....  
 
 
Hi BCG,
 
I kept it vague so that people would think about the potential parameters involved in evaluating such a judgment.
 
Imagine if I had asked about the two people seperately. Chances are the 27 year old would get a high vote for "dammed". Conversely the 90 year old would get a thumbs up. By comparing the two questions arise as to the process of just judgment.
 
Personally I don't think anyone deserves to die. But we all do anyway.
 
 
 
 
 


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 2:53pm
It is not by the years they lived but by the their deeds in these years

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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:04pm
It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?


Both men had the opportunity to repent and both were given sufficient time in which to do so.  However, the old man chose to do it, all along the way throughout his lifetime.  Why?  Because it was in his heart to do so.

However, we don't know what was in the young man's heart.....but God knows.  God also knows that if the young man was allowed to tarry, if he would have acted upon that desire or not.  Therefore, this young man, according the foreknowledge of God, would be blessed (or not) for that which was in his heart to do, but had not yet acted upon.

 
Originally posted by Bill2702

When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.


When we are judged--- we are judged according to the desires of our heart, our thoughts, and our actions during mortality.  God's judgment never ends....nor can we alter his judgments....for they are eternal.  When we list to obey (or disobey) HIM--- we are blessed (or will suffer) the natural consequences of our own choices.

However, before we leave this mortal life, we do have the ability to alter our actions--- that will cause God's judgment towards us....be for our good (or for our detriment).  We can change the desires of our heart ("to have a change of heart") through the power of the Holy Ghost.  Through this experience, an individual's thoughts and ultimately their actions will automatically change....for they have become "a new creature" and have "put off the natural man."












Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by yishmael

For those who might be curious about all this, I'll suggest that Janet Waters is now entering into post-Mormon theology here. I'm not familiar with any authorized teaching of the LDS church which goes so far as she has. Does the church know that you're innovating doctrines and passing them off as legitimate, Janet? If you can back this new doctrine up with references, I'd love to see it. Otherwise it's safe to assume that you've simply come to a lot of personal conclusions on your own which don't exactly reconcile themselves with the teachings of the church.  Best, Yishmael



I guess you think that if you don't know something or understand it....it must not exist.  I realize that you gain your self-esteem in knowing more about everything than everyone else...hense the need to be the authority in telling each person on this site what they and their religion believe.  Haven't you noticed many correcting you as the "authority" on the matter of what they believe?

You certainly know about everything that is "illegitimate" Mormon doctrine--- however that does not mean that you do know about what is legitimate.  True seekers of knowledge come to the conclusion.... the more they learn....the more they realize they don't know.

My time is precious, I am not going to waste it helping you to see all the things you don't know or understand for that matter.  When you do your "scripture study" look about proving something valuable instead of looking to prove against it.

Your pride in being so called "learned" coupled with a big doze of pessimism (which causes your lack of faith in everything and everyone) ....is the big reason you do not interpret the world as it is....but the way YOU are.

I'm sorry that you can't see your reflection....in my posts.  However, I see it as complimentary....so thank you for that.  If you want someone who is there to support you and your outlook on life.....talk to a mirror.









Posted By: bcgirl
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:08pm
Salam, just a quick comment, bill you mentioned that was it right for the young man to die at such a young age as he wanst given the opportunity to repent.... if we read into that it seems a bit tragic, but what about all the small children of this world who dont even make to an age to speak, never mind learn the meaning of the word repent. God has a plan for us all and when you die in a car crash at age 2 or live to be 93,with no major heath problems, and you ask why?? this is God's will, What about those parents' sitting in a wing of sick kids' hospital right now as im typing this and watching their precious child get eaten away by cancer...is that fair??no.. did this child at age 3 do something so unforgivable that they deserve to be in such a predicament??? the examples are endless but this again is just my thought process into this question. Inshalla....

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Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?

Both men had the opportunity to repent and both were given sufficient time in which to do so.  However, the old man chose to do it, all along the way throughout his lifetime.  Why?  Because it was in his heart to do so.

However, we don't know what was in the young man's heart.....but God knows.  God also knows that if the young man was allowed to tarry, if he would have acted upon that desire or not.  Therefore, this young man, according the foreknowledge of God, would be blessed (or not) for that which was in his heart to do, but had not yet acted upon.

 
Originally posted by Bill2702

When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.


When we are judged--- we are judged according to the desires of our heart, our thoughts, and our actions during mortality.  God's judgment never ends....nor can we alter his judgments....for they are eternal.  When we list to obey (or disobey) HIM--- we are blessed (or will suffer) the natural consequences of our own choices.

However, before we leave this mortal life, we do have the ability to alter our actions--- that will cause God's judgment towards us....be for our good (or for our detriment).  We can change the desires of our heart ("to have a change of heart") through the power of the Holy Ghost.  Through this experience, an individual's thoughts and ultimately their actions will automatically change....for they have become "a new creature" and have "put off the natural man."

 
I wasn't aware of any doctrine that states that a person is judged on what he would have done had he lived longer. Where does that come from?
 
Also you state we cannot do anything to alter our fate and then go on to say that is what we can do? Which is it? You can't have both.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by bcgirl

Salam, just a quick comment, bill you mentioned that was it right for the young man to die at such a young age as he wanst given the opportunity to repent.... if we read into that it seems a bit tragic, but what about all the small children of this world who dont even make to an age to speak, never mind learn the meaning of the word repent. God has a plan for us all and when you die in a car crash at age 2 or live to be 93,with no major heath problems, and you ask why?? this is God's will, What about those parents' sitting in a wing of sick kids' hospital right now as im typing this and watching their precious child get eaten away by cancer...is that fair??no.. did this child at age 3 do something so unforgivable that they deserve to be in such a predicament??? the examples are endless but this again is just my thought process into this question. Inshalla....
 
I didn't say it was right for him to die. My own personal view is that there is no right or wrong to it because to do so is to admit that God is cruel. If cruelty is a part of God's nature then he is not worthy of worship.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
 
 
why u think that he would repent if he lived longer , maybe if he was going to repent Allah would gave him longer chance ?
 


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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
 
 
why u think that he would repent if he lived longer , maybe if he was going to repent Allah would gave him longer chance ?
 
 
He might have. With free will God offers that chance to redeem for the past. The 90 year old did.
 


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: khany
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:57pm
bill,

if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.


Posted By: bcgirl
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 3:30pm
Salam, firstly to bill, i didnt at any point say that you said it was right for him to die, perhaps you didnt understand what  i wrote, all i said is that everything that happens good and bad is God's will. whether we agree or disagree or think it is cruel or think it is just. Remember, God tests us constantly and satan could not exisit if God did not want him to exist. and to say that God is cruel and if this is part of His nature, than he is not worthy of worship. AGAIN....... everything put before us is a test, which path will we take??? the straight moral path of God, or the sinful and knowingly wrong path of satan?? There is good and bad in this life for a reason, we may not like it, but we have to deal with it. It is all in His plan, and his will for us.....
 
and to khany....i liked your comment saying everybody has their respective test and are judged accordingly. YES, YES!!! this is what im talking about...
 
His power is too infinate for the human mind to comprehend and it is this way for a reason, we are his creation, we are not put on this earth to have complete knowledge of his inner workings, if we did, we would be comparable to Him now then wouldnt we??? and that is the farthest from impossible to even think about. Inshalla


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Salam Aleikum, my new mission statement:Why worry? God's in control...


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by khany

bill,

if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
 
I don't fear he is unjust. I believe he doesn't care so justice is not the issue. For one who can do whatever he wants with impunity every whim is justice.


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Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

I wasn't aware of any doctrine that states that a person is judged on what he would have done had he lived longer. Where does that come from?
 
I am giving an example of what it would mean to balance the "desires of the heart," one's "thoughts"and one's "actions."  For all three are separate issues to be taken into account....in the final outcome.  One's action is only part of the puzzle.
 
  
Originally posted by Bill2702

Also you state we cannot do anything to alter our fate and then go on to say that is what we can do? Which is it? You can't have both.
 
I said that we can't alter God's judgment....but we can alter our choices.  The choices that we make have the consequences already attached to them.  Those judgments.....are already set.
 
Doctrine & Covenants 130:20
20  There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated--
21  And then we obtain any blessings from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
 
 


Posted By: Janet Waters
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by khany

bill, if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
 
Originally posted by Bill2702

I don't fear he is unjust. I believe he doesn't care so justice is not the issue. For one who can do whatever he wants with impunity every whim is justice.
 
Our idea of what is just....isn't necessarily what perfect justice is. 
 
I know that God does care....otherwise he wouldn't have sent his Son. 
 
The Law Giver himself....follows higher laws than he expects us to.  If he could not even follow the lesser laws himself....then he would not be an exalted perfect being. 
 
If the Law Giver did not follow his own laws, he could not be "All knowing" for he would have to amend the laws to excluse his errors...not realizing beforehand....the situtations that might arise.
 


Posted By: khany
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 7:04pm
I don't fear he is unjust. I believe he doesn't care so justice is not the issue. For one who can do whatever he wants with impunity every whim is justice.


and you think he doesn't care because ...?
you believe god is whimsical he creates in vain?
(023:115)
"Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"

describing the people of understanding the quran says:
(003:191)
Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

(038:027)
Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

or do you feel that  there are more important things for god to worry about... god would rather spend time worrying about more significant issues?

(002:255)
No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.

(004:040)
Allah is never unjust in the least degree: If there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward.

(099:007-008)
Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.


these are anthropological extensions of human limitation to god. none of us believe in this god whom you describe. we believe in a god who is merciful and just and who is fully capable implementing this justice.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by Bill2702

It's not so much the years but the oportunity to recieve mercy from God. The young man was not given that oportunity. He died prematurely in a state of sin. Was it his fault he died before he had a chance to repent?
 
When you die your ability to alter judgment ends. According to the Abrahamic religions at least.
 
 
why u think that he would repent if he lived longer , maybe if he was going to repent Allah would gave him longer chance ?
 
 
He might have. With free will God offers that chance to redeem for the past. The 90 year old did.
 
 
some one may repent after 90 years and another one may not repent even if he lived 1000 years
 
It has nothing to do with how u much u lived ...
 
Sometimes, Allah let bad people live longer in this life and enjoy it well so they took all the reward of their good action in this life but they will get nothing in the hereafter.
 
 


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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: scruggnut
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by khany

bill,

if this 27 year old were a god fearing individual may be he would strayed from the path if he had lived longer. these are all hypothetical situations. absolutely anything (with in the limits of human ability) could have happened.

however, god's judgment is always just. some people are born to believing parents. some are born in polytheist families. some grow up rich, other poor. everybody has their respective test and they are judged accordingly.

(017:015)
We never punish until we have sent a messenger.

(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

do you fear that god will be unjust? if he is unjust then he is not god.
or do you think that the judgment would be too complex because there are so many complicating factors? it is easy for allah.
How is it that you manage to answer a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer and not be aware of it at all.


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Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.


Posted By: khany
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:34am
How is it that you manage to answer a hypothetical question with a hypothetical answer and not be aware of it at all.


scruggnut,

my apologies i was probably not clear enough. i was trying to demonstrate the futility of bill's original argument by showing that if his hypothesis could be true then so could mine. we have no knowledge about
"what might have happened if .... "

while man has no knowledge of events that might have happened, god is well aware of all permutations of events. in fact, god knows precisely how each one of us are going to act in this world. out of his justice, he gives us life so that none of us may complain that we are being judged for something we have not done.

about those who deny the signs of allah, allah says:
(006:025)
Even if they were to witness every sign, they would still not believe in it so much so that when they come to you, they dispute with you, those who disbelieve contend: 'This is nothing but fables of the ancient times.'

and furthermore:
(006:027-028)
If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with the Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back! Then would we not reject the signs of our Lord, but would be amongst those who believe!"
Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars.


allahu alam (god knows best).




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