Print Page | Close Window

Expansion of Masjid Al Haram in Mecca

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Religious and non religious topics
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23319
Printed Date: 22 May 2019 at 3:34pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Expansion of Masjid Al Haram in Mecca
Posted By: jamilahz
Subject: Expansion of Masjid Al Haram in Mecca
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 2:00am
I think this looks really amazing.



-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com



Replies:
Posted By: hannah114
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 2:25am

subhanallah!

that really does look amazing



-------------


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 4:23am
i don't think it's cool at all

-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 4:31am
it actually breaks my heart to see this
especially while the Prophet pbuh explicitly forbade the cutting down of trees and killing of animals in the two Holy Cities

but when spirituality is labeled bid'ah all these things look awesome
just look at Dubai and it's horrible state


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 9:40am
Why Not ?
 
this expantion can help to decrease the overcrowdness.
I am not a scholar but this is not corruption because it is done for sake of the Muslim ummah, why not ?
 
Umar bin khattab himself has increase the size of the holly mosque
 
by the way ...why dubai is horrible ?!
 


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 9:44am
the problem is Sa'i and Tawaf will still be crowded regardless of the expantion

-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 11:30am
I think they can easily afford to make the buildings a few kilometers away from the sanctuary and build a metro connecting it
no big deal! they're gazillionaires
there's something called sanctity and sacredness and adab and etiquettes and veneration and eminence
Imam Malik didn't even goto the toilet in Medina
he forbade animals from coming in to media because they poop around every where; so from defiling the city he forbade that


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 11:32am
if you read the social statistics of the middle-east you would faint
brushing it under the carpet does no good instead a lot of harm
entire generations are destroyed and Muslim youth is almost lost


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by maghi85

I think they can easily afford to make the buildings a few kilometers away from the sanctuary and build a metro connecting it
no big deal! they're gazillionaires
there's something called sanctity and sacredness and adab and etiquettes and veneration and eminence
Imam Malik didn't even goto the toilet in Medina
he forbade animals from coming in to media because they poop around every where; so from defiling the city he forbade that
 
Sister forget about the buildings am talking about the holly mosque and finding more space for prayers
 
Things are not always black and white.. in Islam we have weighing up the benefits ..if the benefits for Muslims are more even if there was little haram, it can make it permissible ..like in this case
 
it will decrease over crowdness in the holly mosque..though some problem will not be solved but it is better than nothing


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by maghi85

I think they can easily afford to make the buildings a few kilometers away from the sanctuary and build a metro connecting it
no big deal! they're gazillionaires
there's something called sanctity and sacredness and adab and etiquettes and veneration and eminence
Imam Malik didn't even goto the toilet in Medina
he forbade animals from coming in to media because they poop around every where; so from defiling the city he forbade that
 
Things are not always black and white.. in Islam we have weighing up the benefits ..if the benefits for Muslims are more even if there was little haram, it can make it permissible ..like in this case


I don't know where you get this usool from

the only usool that allows accepting haraam is when it is a matter of life and death. i.e. if you are starving and there's no food but a pig in front of you and no drink except alcohol. or showing your private parts to the doctor etc.

but from what I've been taught about Islam; Haraam isn't made halaal just so that things are convenient or comfortable or that I can chill out in my centrally airconditioned apartment 1000 feet above the Kaba

if your usool was correct then why reject usurious conventional banking
i mean there's so much trouble in finding an Islamic bank... why not make usury halaal?!
oh and prayers are so inconvenient in the winters especially with freezing cold water; why not just make it halaal to not pray in winters?!


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 1:19pm
oh wait a minute; don't get me wrong
I never said these buildings were haram
just sacrilegious and a belittlement of the sanctity of the Holy Sanctuary


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by maghi85

Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by maghi85

I think they can easily afford to make the buildings a few kilometers away from the sanctuary and build a metro connecting it
no big deal! they're gazillionaires
there's something called sanctity and sacredness and adab and etiquettes and veneration and eminence
Imam Malik didn't even goto the toilet in Medina
he forbade animals from coming in to media because they poop around every where; so from defiling the city he forbade that
 
Things are not always black and white.. in Islam we have weighing up the benefits ..if the benefits for Muslims are more even if there was little haram, it can make it permissible ..like in this case


I don't know where you get this usool from

the only usool that allows accepting haraam is when it is a matter of life and death. i.e. if you are starving and there's no food but a pig in front of you and no drink except alcohol. or showing your private parts to the doctor etc.

but from what I've been taught about Islam; Haraam isn't made halaal just so that things are convenient or comfortable or that I can chill out in my centrally airconditioned apartment 1000 feet above the Kaba

if your usool was correct then why reject usurious conventional banking
i mean there's so much trouble in finding an Islamic bank... why not make usury halaal?!
oh and prayers are so inconvenient in the winters especially with freezing cold water; why not just make it halaal to not pray in winters?!
 
 
Sis, I will try to make my self more clear ..U did not understand any word from what I have said
 
I meant if the benefit over weight the harm this can make it permissible
 
You said this rule in the matter of life and death only..this is incorrect sister, you mentioned some examples which could be the only example u have heard regarding this topic, one of these examples does not include a matter of life and death " showing ur private part to the doctor " am i should be dying to have this excuse only ?!
 
Anyway,  You have gave an example of not to pray because it is so cold ?! You are making wrong comaprison here because prayers are pillar of Islam .
 
regarding the holly mosque, am not talking about cutting trees to build a hotel NOOOO..am talking about building a space for people to pray ( extention of the mosque) 
 
in this new extention it might take a Muslim half an hour or an hour to walk from the end of the extention to the kabaa.
 
Your suggestion is to make them walk from outside mekka on a bridge to the kabba..this is impossible for many people
 
This extention will make prayer, hajj ( which is a pillar of Islam )more easier for Muslims 
 
This over weight the harm which is cutting few trees ( there is very few trees in the desert) which is haram in the haram.
 
Umar bin khattab himself did that when he was a khalifa ..the size of the holy mosque at the time of the prophet is not enough for the number of Muslims now.Which show it is not only in the matter of life and death.
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Emad
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 2:42pm
I agree with maghi, may Allah protect Mecca from ever looking like that.  Now when you walk out of the haram, all you see is malls and big hotels.  Makkah is a place of spirituality, not materialism.  Any kind of spiritual benefit one gets from the kaba can easily be lost the second they step out and walk into the buildings.  All you see is people eating, buying, selling, you totally don't feel like you are in Mecca.  Some Muslims in the past used to crawl to go to Mecca (literally), why can't we just sacrifice some comfort? 
 
The purpose of hajj is to leave our lifestyle behind us and go focus on Allah in Mecca, if we bring our lifestyle with us, malls, fast food, 5 star hotels, then it is as if we did not perform hajj.  That is why so many people make hajj and return without changing at all, because their environment didn't change.  They made sure they have they same comfortable, overly materialistic environment they have at home was available for them in Mecca.  Finally, Mecca is not a place for vacations, therefore we do not need comfort and extravagance.  Mecca is a place of spirituality.  When some of us go to Mecca, we take it as if it is some kind of vacation area, thus we want the best hotel, the best food, drink, comfort etc.  You even see people making tawaf and talking on cell phones! 
 
 


-------------
Verily, either we or you are rightly guided or in plain error. (Quran Saba:24)

Emad@whyislam.org


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 3:25pm
sorry sister mai
I thought you said haram instead of harm


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 3:45pm
Spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual.

Its a plunder of Makkah and its spiritual beauty, such a sad thing. Truly the sauds who were dacoits before becoming rulers with help of christians are pillaging and plundering Makkah.

They have no value for heritage. The fitrah of barbarians will never change.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 3:53pm
tell me about it
95% of heritage is destroyed under the banner of shirk
and the silly part is that they've convinced a whole lot of Muslims that its okay for them to turn the house of Khadijah r.a. in to a toilet or turn the house in which the Prophet pbuh was born in to a library



-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Emad

I agree with maghi, may Allah protect Mecca from ever looking like that.  Now when you walk out of the haram, all you see is malls and big hotels.  Makkah is a place of spirituality, not materialism.  Any kind of spiritual benefit one gets from the kaba can easily be lost the second they step out and walk into the buildings.  All you see is people eating, buying, selling, you totally don't feel like you are in Mecca.  Some Muslims in the past used to crawl to go to Mecca (literally), why can't we just sacrifice some comfort? 
 
The purpose of hajj is to leave our lifestyle behind us and go focus on Allah in Mecca, if we bring our lifestyle with us, malls, fast food, 5 star hotels, then it is as if we did not perform hajj.  That is why so many people make hajj and return without changing at all, because their environment didn't change.  They made sure they have they same comfortable, overly materialistic environment they have at home was available for them in Mecca.  Finally, Mecca is not a place for vacations, therefore we do not need comfort and extravagance.  Mecca is a place of spirituality.  When some of us go to Mecca, we take it as if it is some kind of vacation area, thus we want the best hotel, the best food, drink, comfort etc.  You even see people making tawaf and talking on cell phones! 
 
 


Emad you are perfectly right.

Besides how great would it be to do the hajj the way our Holy Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wassallam did it, in utmost simplicity, the greatest Prophet  yet the mist humble man to tread on earth.

Yet people want to chill in makkah like its some holiday resort high above the ka'ba, astagfirullah.
I would prefer to be in the hot sun to get a feeling of the sacrifices of the first generation of Muslims.
May ALLAh uproot this parasitic and corrupt royal family forever. aameen


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 4:37pm
So then I assume you would all be in favor of leveling the current buildings, except the ka'aba of course and returning the whole area to dirt like it was in the time of the Prophet(saaws)?


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 4:38pm
no. that's another extreme
why jump from one extreme to another?


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 4:42pm
Because you are all complaining about how horrible it is. If you put it into perspective of how it was at the time of the Prophet(saaws) to how it is now that is a much greater change than the proposed expansion would be. 


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 4:47pm
there are necessities
and then there are wants

in scheduling we make a chart

it goes anti-clock wise... try using it for your work it'll help
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                               :
                                               :
URGENT & IMPORTANT            :           NOT URGENT NOT IMPORTANT
                                               :
                                               :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                               :
                                               :
URGENT BUT NOT IMPORTANT :         IMPORTANT BUT NOT URGENT
                                               :
                                               :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: Emad
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by maghi85

there are necessities
and then there are wants

in scheduling we make a chart

it goes anti-clock wise... try using it for your work it'll help
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                               :
                                               :
URGENT & IMPORTANT            :           NOT URGENT NOT IMPORTANT
                                               :
                                               :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                               :
                                               :
URGENT BUT NOT IMPORTANT :         IMPORTANT BUT NOT URGENT
                                               :
                                               :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Yes I agree, having Burger King and KFC right outside the kabah is not a necessity.  Having 5 star hotels with the most extravagant beds, foods, services is not a necessity. 


-------------
Verily, either we or you are rightly guided or in plain error. (Quran Saba:24)

Emad@whyislam.org


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 5:31pm
Salam

Ok, few things.  First and foremost, whether one dislikes or likes the Saudis shouldn't come into this.  This action should be judged purely on Islamic lines, not who is doing it.

There are a number of different things here:

* First and foremost, there is no doubt a need for the expansion of the masjid itself.  I think we can all agree on that.  I see no problem personally getting rid of old buildings if it done in order to expand the masjid.  Dynamic worship is more important than static history.
* The Quran is clear that trade is allowed during Hajj.
* There is a need for people to be provided with lodging and food during Hajj.  When I went to Hajj, there were a lot of Hajis lieing/sleeping in the street. 
* Hajj is a logisitical nightmare for anyone who has to organize it.  Maybe it would be wiser to ask the organizers why they propose such "luxury" rather than question thier motives.  Maybe this plan is being invoked for logisitcal reasons.
* These hotels may look grand on the outside, but on the inside it's just a basic hotel room.  I do a lot of travelling, and once you've seen one hotel, you've seen them all.  I was on Umrah in 2001 and staying at the Hilton, and certainly didn't feel that I was living in luxury.
* People have a choice when it comes to food.  When I went to Umrah, we chose not to have our breakfast at McDonalds or KFC but at the Islamabad Restaurant, where I got could cheap but yummy "channe puri" (a Pakistani breakfast speciality).


-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Emad
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Salam

* These hotels may look grand on the outside, but on the inside it's just a basic hotel room.  I do a lot of travelling, and once you've seen one hotel, you've seen them all.  I was on Umrah in 2001 and staying at the Hilton, and certainly didn't feel that I was living in luxury.
* People have a choice when it comes to food.  When I went to Umrah, we chose not to have our breakfast at McDonalds or KFC but at the Islamabad Restaurant, where I got could cheap but yummy "channe puri" (a Pakistani breakfast speciality).
 
Br hamayoun, I disagree that the hotels there are different than here.  Did you ever look at Dar al Tawhid or Dar al Taqwa in Mecca and Medina?  Just walk in the door of the hotel and you will notice nothing but extravagance. 


-------------
Verily, either we or you are rightly guided or in plain error. (Quran Saba:24)

Emad@whyislam.org


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 5:49pm
Salam

Honestly Emad, if you travel a lot you'll really see that the rooms themselves are basically the same... bed, TV, bathroom.


-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 5:49pm
Dar al taqwa, dar al tawhid 

-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Salam

Ok, few things.  First and foremost, whether one dislikes or likes the Saudis shouldn't come into this.  This action should be judged purely on Islamic lines, not who is doing it.

There are a number of different things here:

* First and foremost, there is no doubt a need for the expansion of the masjid itself.  I think we can all agree on that.  I see no problem personally getting rid of old buildings if it done in order to expand the masjid.  Dynamic worship is more important than static history.
* The Quran is clear that trade is allowed during Hajj.
* There is a need for people to be provided with lodging and food during Hajj.  When I went to Hajj, there were a lot of Hajis lieing/sleeping in the street. 
* Hajj is a logisitical nightmare for anyone who has to organize it.  Maybe it would be wiser to ask the organizers why they propose such "luxury" rather than question thier motives.  Maybe this plan is being invoked for logisitcal reasons.
* These hotels may look grand on the outside, but on the inside it's just a basic hotel room.  I do a lot of travelling, and once you've seen one hotel, you've seen them all.  I was on Umrah in 2001 and staying at the Hilton, and certainly didn't feel that I was living in luxury.
* People have a choice when it comes to food.  When I went to Umrah, we chose not to have our breakfast at McDonalds or KFC but at the Islamabad Restaurant, where I got could cheap but yummy "channe puri" (a Pakistani breakfast speciality).
 
Voice of logic


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 7:09pm

There is everything in Mecca suit all level, rich and poor and yes some places which is near to the Kabaa are cheap .

Regardless THE EXPANTION IS A VERY GOOD IDEA :)



-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: devd
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by maghi85

there are necessities and then there are wants


Assalam u alaikum wa rahmatulahi wa baakatuhu,

We want paved roads, they aren't necessary. We want chilled bottled water, it's not a necessity. In fact, if you're all about what's necessary, then minimal food, water, a clothsack to wear, a rock to hide behind when the weather gets bad and the love of Allah Subhannahuu Wata ala is all you need. Everything else is extravagance.

Where's your line drawn?




Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 11:16pm
Does the rock have A/C?

-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: devd
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 11:25pm
Only if the wind is blowin' cold!


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 4:42am
nope that goes to the level of zuhud
zuhud is not a necessity
it's again another want of the mystics or one serious on his path
necessity would be
paved roads for cars to travel smoothly with out being spoiled
homes with basic necessities like bed, toilet, running water, refrigerator, a fan and if it really gets hot then a ac would be necessary especially for people who are not used to such heat... because most people won't be able to sleep in that heat unless they're used to it.
no need for a TV
a market with basic necessities
no need for flipping HYPER MARKETS

they could've easily built the houses a few kilometers away from the ka'ba because most people nowadays have no adab for the Holy Sanctuary
so the houses if kept far away then people won't get the sin of doing what they do all the time (i.e. back bite, etc) and then connect the buildings with a metro rail all the way to the like a 100 meters from the ka'ba

KFC, McDonalds, etc are no necessities
clothes shop with flipping manicans wearing jeans and tight clothes are no necessities

health facilities
security
control of traffic
proper control of human traffic
drinking water but not to excess
(cause now because of people's appetite they're diluting zam zam with other water and hence even the taste of zam zam is different)

and the likes
i hope this clarifies what i mean by necessities and wants


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:05am
Originally posted by UmarZ

So then I assume you would all be in favor of leveling the current buildings, except the ka'aba of course and returning the whole area to dirt like it was in the time of the Prophet(saaws)?


Does any hadith say that it was a place of dirt nauzubillah ? I think you need to mind you language.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:10am
i think by dirt he meant dust and sand
not the other meaning of dirt as in filth
i hope he didn't


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:11am
So finally the money of Haji's will go to Hilton. Thats great.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:15am
Originally posted by mai moslemah

There is everything in Mecca suit all level, rich and poor and yes some places which is near to the Kabaa are cheap .

Regardless THE EXPANTION IS A VERY GOOD IDEA :)



No one is opposing the expansion, but there are some ethics of expansion.
Preserve the heritage sites and involve Muslim businesses into it instead of non Muslim Hilton's. This is just rampant commercialisation and exploitation.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:18am
Originally posted by UmarZ

Because you are all complaining about how horrible it is. If you put it into perspective of how it was at the time of the Prophet(saaws) to how it is now that is a much greater change than the proposed expansion would be. 


I think because you are from USA so you would prefer it to look like any american city.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:21am
Originally posted by hamayoun

Salam
* Hajj is a logisitical nightmare for anyone who has to organize it.  Maybe it would be wiser to ask the organizers why they propose such "luxury" rather than question thier motives.  Maybe this plan is being invoked for logisitcal reasons.


For logistical reasons you don't need to involve the yahud and nasara in hajj.



-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 7:22am
It just reminds me of the time before Islam came to makkah and the city was important for its rulers as a source of wealth from the travellers. Now we have the same thing coming up again.

-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: weeweeman86
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 8:23am
Salam, I think they should keep some places in Makkah and Madinah as a resevation or untouch for historical sites, without demolishing its original landscape in the time of Rasul(PBUH)and places which are sacred with full of histories with lessons into something different. I am aware that the Hajj will attract more people from its previous years, therefore more development and services are needed for the pilgrims. But there should be some other alternatives, like for example how to make life easier for more and more pilgrims every year without changing the environment as much as possible to meet both the expansion of the Two Holy Mosques in Makkah and Madinah to accomodate worshippers and to keep its original heritage and landscape as it was at the time of the Prophet(PBUH), especially places which are seen or mentioned as significant. Apart from expansion, I think some areas need the natural environment which I feel is important and leaving it exactly as it was in the time of Rasul(PBUH) gives the pilgrim the divine understanding how the prophet(PBUH) lived and makes the Heart clear from all obstacles. It should be noted that it will be alot easier for pilgrims to focus the rewards of the life hereafter for performing the sacred rituals during Hajj, especially when the hearts are clear from obstacles.

I'm not against the expansion, but a balance is required for both without harming the environment which are seen as Sacred or Holy by many Muslims, especially with the rules of ihram are implied.



Posted By: weeweeman86
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 10:44am
Again I'm Sorry, Assalamualaikum, I think they should keep some places in Makkah and Madinah as a resevation or untouch for historical sites, without demolishing its original landscape in the time of Rasul(PBUH)and places which are sacred with full of histories with lessons into something different. I am aware that the Hajj will attract more people from its previous years, therefore more development and services are needed for the pilgrims. But there should be some other alternatives, like for example how to make life easier for more and more pilgrims every year without changing the environment as much as possible to meet both the expansion of the Two Holy Mosques in Makkah and Madinah to accomodate worshippers and to keep its original heritage and landscape as it was at the time of the Prophet(PBUH), especially places which are seen or mentioned as significant. Apart from expansion, I think some areas need the natural environment which I feel is important and leaving it exactly as it was in the time of Rasul(PBUH) gives the pilgrim the divine understanding how the prophet(PBUH) lived and makes the Heart clear from all obstacles. It should be noted that it will be alot easier for pilgrims to focus the rewards of the life hereafter, rather just here for site-seeing when performing the sacred rituals during Hajj, especially when the hearts are clear from obstacles.

I'm not against the expansion, but a balance is required for both without harming the environmental heritage which are seen as Sacred or Holy by many Muslims, especially with the rules of ihram are implied.


Posted By: devd
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 11:11am
Originally posted by maghi85

nope that goes to the level of zuhud
zuhud is not a necessity
...
a market with basic necessities
no need for flipping HYPER MARKETS
...
 
KFC, McDonalds, etc are no necessities
clothes shop with flipping manicans wearing jeans and tight clothes are no necessities

health facilities
security
control of traffic
proper control of human traffic
drinking water but not to excess
(cause now because of people's appetite they're diluting zam zam with other water and hence even the taste of zam zam is different)

and the likes
i hope this clarifies what i mean by necessities and wants
 
Thank you for the clarification.
 
Along that same line, I'll say that my brief commentary had nothing to do with being disinterested in the things of this world as a show of faith, but rather showed what was needed in order to not die forthwith. What was necessary to maintain life.
 
You feel that paved roads are necessary, because you see that the use of cars is systemic to the human condition in this modern world.
 
You feel KFC is not a necessity, but having a market with basic necessities is. Perhaps there are those who consider chicken cooked with the Colonol's secret recipe to be a necessity, on par with a lone merchant selling dates from the back of a camel?
 
If the expansion realizes the promise of its plan, 40 years after it's complete you can be sure there will be people who will be having this same conversation, except the expanded masjid will be their, "necessity," and any additions thereof will be flipping hyper extravagances.
 
But I'm just positing a viewpoint, I do understand what you're saying and I don't care to see Ronald MacDonald dancing for money outside the ka'ba.
 
All of this brings up a question...I'll start a new thread.
 
 


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 11:29am
Does this plan include the expansion of the masajid ?


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 11:34am
Does this plan include the expansion of the masajid ?

I mean that's the whole point!  In fact, some hotels have been knocked down recently to allow expansion.


-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 11:46am
just give lesser visas i say
"فكم من بعيد اقرب ممن هو قريب"


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Originally posted by UmarZ

So then I assume you would all be in favor of leveling the current buildings, except the ka'aba of course and returning the whole area to dirt like it was in the time of the Prophet(saaws)?


Does any hadith say that it was a place of dirt nauzubillah ? I think you need to mind you language.


Uh, maybe I missed the hadith where they had paved the area 1400 years ago? What are you talking about? I don't mean dirt like filth (if that is what you think) I mean earth/sand, etc. You know?


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Originally posted by UmarZ

Because you are all complaining about how horrible it is. If you put it into perspective of how it was at the time of the Prophet(saaws) to how it is now that is a much greater change than the proposed expansion would be. 


I think because you are from USA so you would prefer it to look like any american city.


Does that look like an American City? If you think so you really don't know what you are talking about. And I hate cities. I go there when I have to but I have never lived in one. I have always lived in places where there are more trees than people.


Posted By: UmarZ
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

So finally the money of Haji's will go to Hilton. Thats great.


Where are you getting this? Do you have a link where it says this is going to involve American companies? Or involve Christians and Jews in Hajj?


Posted By: devd
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

This is just rampant commercialisation and exploitation.
 
I've not read about the organizations involved or the commercialization features planned for the expansion. Do you have a link I can go to find this out?


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

So finally the money of Haji's will go to Hilton. Thats great.


Where are you getting this? Do you have a link where it says this is going to involve American companies? Or involve Christians and Jews in Hajj?


Hilton has already started advertising spaces for temporary sale b4 a few years.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by devd

Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

This is just rampant commercialisation and exploitation.
 
I've not read about the organizations involved or the commercialization features planned for the expansion. Do you have a link I can go to find this out?


Here you are:

http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Real_Estate_Property/10190357.html






-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Originally posted by UmarZ

Because you are all complaining about how horrible it is. If you put it into perspective of how it was at the time of the Prophet(saaws) to how it is now that is a much greater change than the proposed expansion would be. 


I think because you are from USA so you would prefer it to look like any american city.


Does that look like an American City? If you think so you really don't know what you are talking about. And I hate cities. I go there when I have to but I have never lived in one. I have always lived in places where there are more trees than people.


That was just a view, because we prefer makkah the way it was because we are used to live in such conditions. So i thought u might like it with a bit more advancement.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Originally posted by UmarZ

So then I assume you would all be in favor of leveling the current buildings, except the ka'aba of course and returning the whole area to dirt like it was in the time of the Prophet(saaws)?


Does any hadith say that it was a place of dirt nauzubillah ? I think you need to mind you language.


Uh, maybe I missed the hadith where they had paved the area 1400 years ago? What are you talking about? I don't mean dirt like filth (if that is what you think) I mean earth/sand, etc. You know?


hmm, thats fine then. But ur assumption is not precise too. What i mean to say is there are many spots in makkah where many historical incidents have happened and they should be there for us to see what we read in the seerah.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: weeweeman86
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 9:20am
If Worshipers wants to come for Umrah or Hajj, they should not be restricted unless they come with ill-intention and the government should do something that keeps important places or landmarks as untouch or unexploited and allow expansion with basic human needs for Worship or buying gifts at spare time and not something more than that(or should I say something which is reasonable for Hajj and Umrah).

 


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 9:42am
Originally posted by maghi85

nope that goes to the level of zuhud
zuhud is not a necessity
it's again another want of the mystics or one serious on his path
necessity would be
paved roads for cars to travel smoothly with out being spoiled
homes with basic necessities like bed, toilet, running water, refrigerator, a fan and if it really gets hot then a ac would be necessary especially for people who are not used to such heat... because most people won't be able to sleep in that heat unless they're used to it.
no need for a TV
a market with basic necessities
no need for flipping HYPER MARKETS

they could've easily built the houses a few kilometers away from the ka'ba because most people nowadays have no adab for the Holy Sanctuary
so the houses if kept far away then people won't get the sin of doing what they do all the time (i.e. back bite, etc) and then connect the buildings with a metro rail all the way to the like a 100 meters from the ka'ba

KFC, McDonalds, etc are no necessities
clothes shop with flipping manicans wearing jeans and tight clothes are no necessities

health facilities
security
control of traffic
proper control of human traffic
drinking water but not to excess
(cause now because of people's appetite they're diluting zam zam with other water and hence even the taste of zam zam is different)

and the likes
i hope this clarifies what i mean by necessities and wants
 
If this is how u define necessity then i can say it is relative and it differ from someone to another


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: shauna-kaye
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 11:55am
i think expansion of the masjid is nice....it looks great too.but moderation is the key...i hope they don't over do it...really don't want to see too many high rise buildings in makkah......competing in building lofty buildings is a sign of the last hour.this is makkah for heavens sake....moderation.....make it nice,expand yes but preserve at the same time.

like emad said...hajj is a spirtual journey...it should be hardship and struggle and pilgrims living like there  at ritz charlton.at the same time people should feel comfortable.so once again moderation.


-------------
EVERYTHING HAPPENS BY THE PERMISSION OF ALLAAH(SWT).


Posted By: weeweeman86
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 3:07am


I like the idea of chilled zamzam water in a bottle and having mcdonald's or KFC as part of basic consumption, but not Ronald Mcdonald dancing for money outside the Ka'abah...

(no no no!!! this is out of context)


Posted By: Islamaholic
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 7:47am
I really don't see what the big fuss is about.  They need to accomodate the number of pilgrims hence they expand and create accomodation for them.  They could restrict the amount of people they allow each year, but ask the people who made all preparations for their pilgrimage and then were refused a visa.
 
Yes, unfortunately its beginning to look like Dubai outside the haram, but the authorities don't have a choice really.  They create hotels right outside of the haram because of the expectations of the pilgrims.   Pilgrims want their hotels as close as possible to the haram.  They don't like walking long distances for their prayers because it gets very busy.
 
Makkah has always been a city of trade and commerce. So, they make their profits during hajj and Umrah.   At the end of the day, the core places for pilgrims are the two harams in Makkah and Madina, the format of these places haven't changed much and its still possible to attain spirituality in these places if you really want it.
 
ma'salam


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual.

 
"As usual"??  Why blame non-muslims?  We can't even visit the place. I find this remark extremely offensive.
 
P.S.
Originally posted by hamayoun

Salam
Ok, few things.  First and foremost, whether one dislikes or likes the Saudis shouldn't come into this.  This action should be judged purely on Islamic lines, not who is doing it.

 
Uh, hama.  You forgot us non-saudis shouldn't come into it, either.  Or are you on the same page as whirling?


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: Nura
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 1:09pm
I really don't understand why non-Muslim are so upset about Mecca.
You know Tony, there is a part of Greece called Mounth Athos, and until some years ago just orthodox christian men could visit it. I know it because my uncle went many years ago and told me recently about it.
 
As a Muslim I could teoretically take part to a mass in Vatican or stay in an orthodox cluster (not sure) but why should I want to? I would find it a lack of respect towards the people who go there because it's a part of their religion. Beside Mecca, non-Muslims can visit every other mosque in the world.


-------------
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 1:57pm
 
I was merely stating a fact regarding Mecca, not resuming this:
http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23021&KW - http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23021&KW =
 
I know nothing about Mount Athos, but would characterize the segregation you describe as plain wrong.  Just as wrong as whirling is in blaming (absent) non-muslims for troubles in Mecca hospitality and service industries.
 
Maybe you agree with him, I don't know.  But I grow tired of it.  That, and decrying perceived slights of islam but rarely repudiating the intolerance expressed by the likes of whirling and others here. 
 
"As a Muslim I could teoretically take part to a mass in Vatican or stay in an orthodox cluster (not sure) but why should I want to? I would find it a lack of respect towards the people who go there because it's a part of their religion."
 
You shouldn't feel that way.  You are welcome to join in or just visit.
 
 


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 3:18pm
LtTony
i think whirling finds Hilton and other non-Muslim corporations as not the cause for trouble in Mecca but he finds them sacrilegious in a way that they bring in the secular culture and way of life in to the sacred land.
I think all religions would abhor that. I mean I don't think the Buddhists or the Hindus would like a KFC or a McDonalds outside their sacred temples and lands


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 5:44pm
Sorry, but you're splitting hairs, in denial or blind.
 
 
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual.
 
 


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by Emad

Makkah is a place of spirituality, not materialism. ...
 
 
That's true
 
However, life does evolve and change with time
 
Makkah today is not what it used to be 20 years ago, 200 years ago or 1400 years ago
 
Accommodation is more comfortable, and hotels are better, though more expensive
 
Keeping a balance between spirituality and modern facilities when doing Hajj or Umrah is a personal choice ...
 
There are more pilgrims each year, and it's important that Makkah and Madinah can accommodate them
 


-------------
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by LtTony

Sorry, but you're splitting hairs, in denial or blind.
 
 
Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual.
 
 


it wouldn't be so unnatural for some Muslims in the Eastern Hemisphere to believe that the west is in fact a Judea-Christian alliance and at some times allied against Islam... especially now that two Muslim countries have been  invaded and occupied.
Iraq occupied under the dictates of Israel. and now Iran is threatened to be invaded while there is a huge US military base in Saudi Arabia which the Saudi Royal family pays billions each year to protect it's theocracy.
lets not forget the dozens of time US single-handedly vetoes against sanctions posed on Israel which the Muslims consider anything but logical and utterly bias.
lets also not forget the corrosion of infinite cultures because of the neocon and evangelical Christian agenda of "lets just make everyone like us and the world will be in peace"


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:04am
 
What does that hogwash (or whirling's bigotry) have to do with the subject of the thread?  I can't believe I have to keep asking that.
 
The subject:
"Expansion of Masjid Al Haram in Mecca"
 
(reply)Originally posted by whirlingEcstasy

Spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual.
 
I replied, "As usual?"  How can us kufr/dhimmi be blamed for the hotel and restaurant situation in Mecca?
 
Hama wrote, "First and foremost, whether one dislikes or likes the Saudis shouldn't come into this.  This action should be judged purely on Islamic lines, not who is doing it."  So I guess the Saudis are off the hook, leaving us non-muslims to take the blame....."as usual."

You vaguely wrote, "i think whirling finds Hilton and other non-Muslim corporations as not the cause for trouble in Mecca but he finds them sacrilegious in a way that they bring in the secular culture and way of life in to the sacred land....I mean I don't think the Buddhists or the Hindus would like a KFC or a McDonalds outside their sacred temples and lands."
 
But when pressed, you confess a different tune, railing against a "Judea-Christian alliance" that is behind an occupation of Iraq, and the "corrosion of infinite cultures because of the neocon and evangelical Christian agenda..."
 
Which again leads to the question, when some muslims going to quit blaming a "Judeau-Christian alliance" for all that troubles them, including the type of hotels and retaurants in Mecca?


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Islamaholic

I really don't see what the big fuss is about.  They need to accomodate the number of pilgrims hence they expand and create accomodation for them.  They could restrict the amount of people they allow each year, but ask the people who made all preparations for their pilgrimage and then were refused a visa.
 
Yes, unfortunately its beginning to look like Dubai outside the haram, but the authorities don't have a choice really.  They create hotels right outside of the haram because of the expectations of the pilgrims.   Pilgrims want their hotels as close as possible to the haram.  They don't like walking long distances for their prayers because it gets very busy.
 
 
True


-------------
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:10am
when did the world ever address the Judea-Christian alliance problem in the first place that we should stop trying to address it?

why is it reasonable for Tibetans to preserve their culture and sanctity while blameworthy and intolerant for the Muslims to preserve theirs?


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:21am
Who were more anti-Western: the Taliban, or the Buddhas of Bamiyan? - TJ Winters

-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:22am
 
The Taliban.
 
Again, what does that have to do with the mecca conversation that I thought was so interesting?


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:26am
to answer that you would have to know the history of the Buddhas of Bamiyan.


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:27am
Originally posted by maghi85

when did the world ever address the Judea-Christian alliance problem in the first place that we should stop trying to address it?

why is it reasonable for Tibetans to preserve their culture and sanctity while blameworthy and intolerant for the Muslims to preserve theirs?
 
Every country has the right to preserve their culture.  Where did I say otherwise?
 
And I'll quit asking "what does this have to do with the hotels in mecca," and just affirm your declaration that non-muslims are to blame for muslim affairs in a muslims-only city.


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:29am
whirling didn't exclusively blame the non-Muslims for it.
in fact i think he  exclusively blamed the royal family

-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:31am
Originally posted by maghi85

to answer that you would have to know the history of the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
 
You need to let go of that, too.
 
You asked who was "more."  The reply doesn't have to be exclusive.  It's just an (offhand) opinion.
 
 
 
 


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:33am
well how could  you arrive at an opinion without having the requisite knowledge needed to arrive at it?


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:37am
i think it boils down to a misinterpretation of what whirling actually meant

lets read what he had to say one more time

"spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual."

the only vilification in the above statement, to me, seems to be of the royal princes


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:38am
ummm
im sorry LTony for taking the topic of the thread all the way to the moon and back

-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: LtTony
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:40am
 "whirling didn't exclusively blame the non-Muslims for it.
in fact i think he  exclusively blamed the royal family"
 
 
Whew, almost remotely back on topic.
 
Uh, no he didn't.  He wrote that the royals were co conspirators in the "Judea-Christian alliance."
 
"Spiritual marketing and money shared between the corrupt royal princes and the jews and christians as usual."
 
Don't you think we should let the thread get back on topic?   I got the answers to my questions.


-------------
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden


Posted By: jamilahz
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:43am
Ok, are we done now?  No more talk please about what Whirling said or didn't say.... Enough already

-------------
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:44am



-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: Islamway
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 5:35am

I've seen many pictures of how the sacred Masjid will look like in the future. I don't know how reliable these pictures are, but I'm quite sure that whats shown in the picture posted by Jamilah can never be achieved by 2010 as the picture claims.

Of course I agree on the expansion of al-haram to accommodate the rapidly increasing numbers of pilgrims, but I'm against having tall building just outside the sacred Masjid, I believe they should have made a complete circle of buildings-free area outside it. Also I object to two of the projects being currently worked on in Makkah:
- Abraj al Bait (the towers of al-Bayt): the buildings are way too giant and close to the Masjid, and the clock is very big bin like. It would be great if they made that project else ware.
Official site: http://www.abrajalbait.com/ - http://www.abrajalbait.com/
- Expansion of al-Mas'a (between Safa and Marwa) : The mas'a after expansion will exceed the width of the two mountains (Safa and Marwa) .. Actually most of the scholars of the "committee of the Saudi grand scholars" opposed the expansion, and said that it will cause people to do Sa'i outside the path between Safa and Marwa .. they suggested building extra floors instead of increasing the width of the mas'a, but the government took the opinion of the minority.



-------------


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 1:42pm
In order for every muslim to perform Hajj (assuming an average life span of 70 years) A staggering 21 million people would have to do it each year. I understand the current limit is about 2.5 million due to logistics and crowd safety issues. Anyone who goes more than once is denying a fellow muslim the oportunity.
 


-------------
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 2:42pm
it's not obligatory on every Muslim to perform Hajj
only for those who have the means to it


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 3:25pm
Rich muslims?

-------------
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 4:08pm
the injunction addresses those who can afford... most lower-middle-class people can afford to go
it's not an obligation for those who can not afford... 
by obligation it means that it won't be a sin for them to not go


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 4:28pm
Yet those who do get extra reward from Allah.


-------------
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 5:48pm
not really...
if one makes the intention for it he gets an equal reward and sometimes even more since intentions are pure while actions may get diluted with ostentation, conceit and pride
there's a famous Arab proverb "how many of those so distant are in fact closer than the one's who are closest (as in physically)"

the reason why it's made obligatory only on those who can afford and not on those who can not afford is to not put an extra burden on the poor...
since this ritual requires a lot financial effort as well

say for instance the act of charity...
for the one whom God didn't bless with money?
he can simply make sincere intentions with God, "Had You given me money my Lord I would spend it in charity" and literally mean it in his heart then he'll get the same reward


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: shauna-kaye
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 7:45pm
i just saw some pictures of the future expansion..actually it doesn't look too bad afterall...like islamaholic said no need to make a big fuss...and personally coming from jamaica i wouldn't want them to decrease the numbers going for hajj...next thing i'm ready to go and they cut the quota at me...nah.
but on a serious note the expansion could be nice...we just need moderation through it all.


-------------
EVERYTHING HAPPENS BY THE PERMISSION OF ALLAAH(SWT).


Posted By: whirlingEcstasy
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 3:30am
Originally posted by LtTony

Originally posted by maghi85

when did the world ever address the Judea-Christian alliance problem in the first place that we should stop trying to address it?

why is it reasonable for Tibetans to preserve their culture and sanctity while blameworthy and intolerant for the Muslims to preserve theirs?
 
And I'll quit asking "what does this have to do with the hotels in mecca," and just affirm your declaration that non-muslims are to blame for muslim affairs in a muslims-only city.
 
I m blaming the royals who have a history of exploiting the gulf for personal benefits in cooperation with the capitalists of the west.
 
And for your info: wasn't there a recent scandal in UK about bribes paid to princes of royal family and the sauds threatned to block further cooperation with uk in the defense deal and the uk gov stepped back from exposing it due to monetary loss instead of being honest.


-------------
Slave of ibn Arabi, Muqallid of Shaykh Sayed Abdul Qadir Al Gailany alaihira7ma wa ridhwan


Posted By: Bill2702
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by maghi85

not really...
if one makes the intention for it he gets an equal reward and sometimes even more since intentions are pure while actions may get diluted with ostentation, conceit and pride
there's a famous Arab proverb "how many of those so distant are in fact closer than the one's who are closest (as in physically)"

the reason why it's made obligatory only on those who can afford and not on those who can not afford is to not put an extra burden on the poor...
since this ritual requires a lot financial effort as well

say for instance the act of charity...
for the one whom God didn't bless with money?
he can simply make sincere intentions with God, "Had You given me money my Lord I would spend it in charity" and literally mean it in his heart then he'll get the same reward
 
With all due respect I think you are generalising in order to avoid the question. Of course I understand that there are other ways to qualify for reward. Yet Hajj is a very signiffant aspect in islam being one of the pillars. There is additional reward for performing hajj or it wouldn't be a command.


-------------
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by maghi85

not really...
if one makes the intention for it he gets an equal reward and sometimes even more since intentions are pure while actions may get diluted with ostentation, conceit and pride
there's a famous Arab proverb "how many of those so distant are in fact closer than the one's who are closest (as in physically)"

the reason why it's made obligatory only on those who can afford and not on those who can not afford is to not put an extra burden on the poor...
since this ritual requires a lot financial effort as well

say for instance the act of charity...
for the one whom God didn't bless with money?
he can simply make sincere intentions with God, "Had You given me money my Lord I would spend it in charity" and literally mean it in his heart then he'll get the same reward
 
Originally posted by Bill2702

With all due respect I think you are generalising in order to avoid the question. Of course I understand that there are other ways to qualify for reward. Yet Hajj is a very signiffant aspect in islam being one of the pillars. There is additional reward for performing hajj or it wouldn't be a command.
 
Hajj is actually very interesting, Bill--a person can want to go... but there are so many factors that come in to play, I for one really believe that Allah has to actuallyg ive a person permission to go. I have heard some of the most amazing stories of people preparing to go to hajj... if someone makes intention, if they really try, then getting the money, visa, accomodations, everything seems to just work out! And yet some people will do all the work and everything is okay until they are about to leave and something goes wrong and they wind up unable to go.
 
I totally agree with everything that maghi said above. If a person makes the intention to go, and they try their best--what if they die before they can go? They get the reward of going!! It's not counted against them. That's just how merciful Allah is!
 
There are people who have no money to speak of who make the intention to go... they go and the process just unfolds for them. But there are so many people with the money who don't make intention to go... and they keep telling themselves they'll do it "later."
 
When hajj is listed as a pillar it's always specified that this is only an obligation for those who are able to do it. But subhanallah, if a person really tries to go for hajj, and really wants to, even if they don't have the means--somehow the means become available! But to ease the mind... it's not an obligation for those who are unable. Because God Almighty would not ask us to do something that is beyond our capabilities.


-------------
http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: maghi85
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 3:15pm
salamualaikum sister Aviatrix,
one of my close friends in UK once was in a mosque weeping to Allah that he may go for Hajj. subhanAllah before he even finished his prayer a man came up to him and asked him if he would like to go for Hajj and that he was willing to pay for all his expenses. a few weeks later my friend was in Mecca
it happened to another one of my friends as well who so wanted to visit the grave of the Prophet pbuh but his passport was stuck in the Saudi embassy and the ambassador had left for vacations. his heart wept while he spoke to me of his ordeal and strong desire to go to Medina, i could hear it in his voice... a few minutes later he got a call from his dad that his passport was ready. He was in Medina a few weeks later
what is it with Brisith converts?
no offense intended ... I do have lots of american convert friends as well but I haven't spent much time with them to know what goes on with them


-------------
"True religion invites us to become better people. False religion tells us that this has already occurred" - T.J. Winters
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mohdat - Old is Gold


Posted By: Aviatrix
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 3:42pm
One of my friends who is not a convert decided she wanted to go to hajj one year--she was 40. Her husband didn't want to go, and she had three daughters. So who would take care of them? Where would she get the money? And was it lawful? And could she get a visa? Subhanallah... she made intention and applied, and had the visa denied. But she managed to get family to come watch the kids, and the money issue kinda resolved. So she got on the phone with the people in charge of visas or whatever and kept on making her plans (flight, accommodations) to go on hajj and got her visa like the day before she had to leave. (Even though without a mahram a woman has to be 45 to get a visa!!) Subhanallah... so she made it.
 
Another one of my friends made intention to go, told her parents who didn't think they could afford it--as her dad would have to go with her. And then her dad agreed. And then her mom decided to go too. And then her mom started wearing hijab that year before they went too! And for them the money and visas all came through... subhanallah.
 
Seriously, you just have to really want it and make intention, and if Allah wills it happens.


-------------
http://ibnatalhidayah.blogspot.com - - Amy's Blog


Posted By: Islamaholic
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 6:42pm
and got her visa like the day before she had to leave.
 
This happens alot.   The first time we went for Umrah, we got our visa the night before and we were travelling early in the morning.
 
ma'salam



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide - http://www.webwizguide.info