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The Metamorphose of Apollos

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Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
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URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24256
Printed Date: 23 April 2019 at 12:48pm
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Topic: The Metamorphose of Apollos
Posted By: Ben Masada
Subject: The Metamorphose of Apollos
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 6:48pm
The text is in Acts 18:24-28.
 
The Sect of the Nazarenes was blooming in Alexandria. Apollos, a Nazarene Jew from Alexandria had decided to go on a trip North to Ephesus. Being well-known as a charismatic and eloquent Teacher in the
Scriptures, he was invited to deliver the Shabbat sermon in the local Nazarene Synagogue. The text says that he would speak about Jesus with accuracy. (Acts 18:25)
 
It happens that on that same day, a couple of former Jews called Aquila and Priscilla were attending services at the same Synagogue. The couple had recently arrived from Italy because of a decree signed by Claudius Caesar that would expell all Jews from Rome. (Acts 18:2) Their trade was Tentmaking. Since Paul was also a Tentmaker, they somehow met, got together, and Paul succeeded to convert them. (Acts 18:1-3)
 
So, back to the Nazarene Synagogue of Ephesus, Aquila and Priscilla realized that there was something wrong with Apollos' sermon. He would
not mention even once that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. After the services, they invited Apollos to their home,
converted him to the Pauline way they believed about Jesus, and the Apollos who returned was no longer the same who had left. He would now preach that Jesus was the Messiah. He was still charismatic and eloquent, but the previous accuracy about Jesus was no longer the same.
Apollos had completely metamorphosed.
 
The point for discussion is: If Apollos was an expert in the Scriptures and
a member of the Sect of the Nazarenes, how come he had to know from
Christians all those things about Jesus? The obvious conclusion is that the
whole thing had been fabricated by Paul almost 30 years after Jesus'
crucifixion.
 
Now, please, kindly share with me your comments.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada



Replies:
Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 8:48pm
 
  Talk about clutching at straws.
  


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 
  Talk about clutching at straws.
  
 

Really! I think you are trying to hang in there because I have pulled the
rug from under your feet.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 10:27pm

 Ohh really... with what exactly...  pure insinuation ?



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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 Ohh really... with what exactly...  pure insinuation ?

 
With what you cannot prove the opposite.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 6:25am
 Don't you mean prove a negative.... thats impossible in any given situation, which is why there will always be claims of alien abductions and sightings of little green men. However there is probablity... which IMO stacks heavily in favour of what i hold to. On some of your past posts... i've seen nothing but the most extremely far fetched and outlandish interpretations of the Biblical texts to suit your point of view which needs no stone removed to sense the reek underneath.
 
 


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 8:25am
Originally posted by Damo808

 Don't you mean prove a negative.... thats impossible in any given situation, which is why there will always be claims of alien abductions and sightings of little green men. However there is probablity... which IMO stacks heavily in favour of what i hold to. On some of your past posts... i've seen nothing but the most extremely far fetched and outlandish interpretations of the Biblical texts to suit your point of view which needs no stone removed to sense the reek underneath.
 
 
 
Nevertheless, your rebuttals must be hiding somewhere howling at the
moon, because I haven't been refuted in my assertions. At least, not
by you yet.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 9:10am

What like the claim you made that there were no Gentile followers of Jesus prior to St Paul's preaching which more or less discredits much everything else you claim about St Paul. .... Unless you have some extra-biblical neutral material to lend credence to what you call fact.. 

 


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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Damo808

What like the claim you made that there were no Gentile followers of Jesus prior to St Paul's preaching which more or less discredits much everything else you claim about St Paul. .... Unless you have some extra-biblical neutral material to lend credence to what you call fact.. 

 
 
Right, Jesus had no Gentile followers. He avoided Gentiles and forbade
his disciples to preach his gospel to Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:5.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Ben Masada

Originally posted by Damo808

What like the claim you made that there were no Gentile followers of Jesus prior to St Paul's preaching which more or less discredits much everything else you claim about St Paul. .... Unless you have some extra-biblical neutral material to lend credence to what you call fact.. 

 
 
Right, Jesus had no Gentile followers. He avoided Gentiles and forbade
his disciples to preach his gospel to Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:5.
 
Ben
 
 No.. in His absense Jesus instructed His followers to stick to the task at hand and concentrate on the "lost sheep" of Israel rather than go into Gentile territory, quite different from saying to avoid gentiles at all costs, again any claims of Jesus having an aversion to Gentiles is debunked in Mat 8.


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jimdi3
Date Posted: 25 November 2008 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Ben Masada

Originally posted by Damo808

What like the claim you made that there were no Gentile followers of Jesus prior to St Paul's preaching which more or less discredits much everything else you claim about St Paul. .... Unless you have some extra-biblical neutral material to lend credence to what you call fact.. 

 
 
Right, Jesus had no Gentile followers. He avoided Gentiles and forbade
his disciples to preach his gospel to Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:5.
 
Ben
 
Not quite true. See Acts 10 which gives the story of Cornelius and his family.


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hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 25 November 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by jimdi3

Originally posted by Ben Masada

Originally posted by Damo808

What like the claim you made that there were no Gentile followers of Jesus prior to St Paul's preaching which more or less discredits much everything else you claim about St Paul. .... Unless you have some extra-biblical neutral material to lend credence to what you call fact.. 

 
 
Right, Jesus had no Gentile followers. He avoided Gentiles and forbade
his disciples to preach his gospel to Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:5.
 
Ben
 
Not quite true. See Acts 10 which gives the story of Cornelius and his family.
 
I am talking about Jesus, not Peter. Only years later after Jesus' death
the Nazarenes decided to nominate Peter to take the teachings of the Sect to the Gentiles. See Acts 15:7. Show me Jesus during his lifetime concerned about Gentiles. Mind you that I don't agree with his attitude.
According to Isaiah 42:6, we Jews are supposed to serve as light unto
the Gentiles. I still can't understand why he had such an aversion to Gentiles.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 25 November 2008 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Ben Masada

Originally posted by Damo808

What like the claim you made that there were no Gentile followers of Jesus prior to St Paul's preaching which more or less discredits much everything else you claim about St Paul. .... Unless you have some extra-biblical neutral material to lend credence to what you call fact.. 

 
 
Right, Jesus had no Gentile followers. He avoided Gentiles and forbade
his disciples to preach his gospel to Gentiles. Read Matthew 10:5.
 
Ben
 
 No.. in His absense Jesus instructed His followers to stick to the task at hand and concentrate on the "lost sheep" of Israel rather than go into Gentile territory, quite different from saying to avoid gentiles at all costs, again any claims of Jesus having an aversion to Gentiles is debunked in Mat 8.
 
Nice try but I ain't buying it.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: jimdi3
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 4:25am
I am talking about Jesus, not Peter. Only years later after Jesus' death
the Nazarenes decided to nominate Peter to take the teachings of the Sect to the Gentiles. See Acts 15:7. Show me Jesus during his lifetime concerned about Gentiles. Mind you that I don't agree with his attitude.
According to Isaiah 42:6, we Jews are supposed to serve as light unto
the Gentiles. I still can't understand why he had such an aversion to Gentiles.
 
Oh I see. Try Matthew 15, 28 as an example of a gentile woman's faith in Jesus gets her daughter healed or Luke 7, 9:10 where a gentile Roman Centurian's faith in Jesus gets his servant healed.
 
No aversion just using both as an example of great faith ....... all in the plan.


-------------
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 8:55am
Originally posted by jimdi3

I am talking about Jesus, not Peter. Only years later after Jesus' death
the Nazarenes decided to nominate Peter to take the teachings of the Sect to the Gentiles. See Acts 15:7. Show me Jesus during his lifetime concerned about Gentiles. Mind you that I don't agree with his attitude.
According to Isaiah 42:6, we Jews are supposed to serve as light unto
the Gentiles. I still can't understand why he had such an aversion to Gentiles.
 
Oh I see. Try Matthew 15, 28 as an example of a gentile woman's faith in Jesus gets her daughter healed or Luke 7, 9:10 where a gentile Roman Centurian's faith in Jesus gets his servant healed.
 
No aversion just using both as an example of great faith ....... all in the plan.
 
Yes, let's try Matthew 15:28. To begin with, the woman was crying out to him non-stop as he walked with his disciples. He would not listen to her cries. Really no word of response. The disciples could take no longer and began to entreat him, "At least, get rid of her; she keeps shouting after us!"
 
Now, to the disciples Jesus gave answer and said, "Hey, my mission is ONLY to the House of Israel." She is a Gentile. The woman cut through the disciples and went straight to him and said, "Help me Lord!" What did Jesus say?
 
 "Listen, it's not right to take from the food of the children (meaning the Jews) and throw it unto the dogs (meaning Gentiles)." Yes,
I understand, the woman answered. Okay, I agree that we are like the dogs. But even the dogs share in the crumbles that fall from the table of the children. Now, Jesus gets rid of her by curing her daughter.
 
Yes, her insistence meant a lot of faith. But due to Jesus' precedence of aversion to Gentiles in the case of Matthew 7:6, others have all the right in the world to speculate that he cured that woman's daughter only after she recognized her doggy condition. I wonder why Jesus did that, because, personally, if you ask me: It was a classical act of cruelty to a Gentile human being.
 
Now, with reference to Luke 7:9,10, you forgot to read verse 5. Jesus did
not agree to heal that Centurion's servant because he had changed his mind about Gentiles. He opened that excepton because some Jewish Elders explained to him that the Centurion deserved from Jesus that favor because he loved the Jews, and had even built the local Synagogue. Perhaps that Centurion was even a secret convert to Judaism. That's why
Jesus stooped down and agreed to heal the servant of that Centurion.
 
Hey! Mind you that I am against Jesus' attitude against Gentiles. He should have known much better that according to Isaiah 42:6, Israel had been given as light unto the Gentiles. I wonder why Jesus would behave thus.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:37am
Nice try Ben... but  the whole point of Jesus exclusivity among the Jews was due to his fullfilling of the Law first and foremost among His own people. Jesus response to the woman was as much a demonstration to those who witnessed it, He did not mince His words with the woman, yet she responded in the humblest of manner, never denying His Truth. This is key for it displays her unquestioned faith in Him against the backdrop of some of those around Him who despised Him and His Message. Again the centurion in Mat-8.. There was no greater faith in all Israel than in this Gentile according to Jesus. Is this statement just a minor insignificance to you, in the context that Jesus was the Christ ?
 
 
 No.. in His absense Jesus instructed His followers to stick to the task at hand and concentrate on the "lost sheep" of Israel rather than go into Gentile territory, quite different from saying to avoid gentiles at all costs, again any claims of Jesus having an aversion to Gentiles is debunked in Mat 8. - Damo
 
Nice try but I ain't buying it.
 Ben
 
 
 
It's neither here nor there...what you buy into
 but you sourced the NT for your argument, i just used the same source to prove your statement wrong..


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: jimdi3
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:58am
Thank you Damo808! But see:-
 
Yes, her insistence meant a lot of faith. But due to Jesus' precedence of aversion to Gentiles in the case of Matthew 7:6, others have all the right in the world to speculate that he cured that woman's daughter only after she recognized her doggy condition. I wonder why Jesus did that, because, personally, if you ask me: It was a classical act of cruelty to a Gentile human being.
 
Ben, you seem to know little of the persistence of a Mother who wants something for her child. The curing of her daughter a classical act of Cruelty? Ask any Mother about asking and asking again and again....


-------------
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by jimdi3

Thank you Damo808! But see:-
 
Yes, her insistence meant a lot of faith. But due to Jesus' precedence of aversion to Gentiles in the case of Matthew 7:6, others have all the right in the world to speculate that he cured that woman's daughter only after she recognized her doggy condition. I wonder why Jesus did that, because, personally, if you ask me: It was a classical act of cruelty to a Gentile human being.
 
Ben, you seem to know little of the persistence of a Mother who wants something for her child. The curing of her daughter a classical act of Cruelty? Ask any Mother about asking and asking again and again....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
I don't know why you keep doing this. You know very well what I mean.
Of course I know how much a mother is ready to do to get something for
her child. The point is not with the mother but with Jesus. Why did he force her to stoop that low as to recognize her status. That's what
I mean by cruelty.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Nice try Ben... but  the whole point of Jesus exclusivity among the Jews was due to his fullfilling of the Law first and foremost among His own people. Jesus response to the woman was as much a demonstration to those who witnessed it, He did not mince His words with the woman, yet she responded in the humblest of manner, never denying His Truth. This is key for it displays her unquestioned faith in Him against the backdrop of some of those around Him who despised Him and His Message. Again the centurion in Mat-8.. There was no greater faith in all Israel than in this Gentile according to Jesus. Is this statement just a minor insignificance to you, in the context that Jesus was the Christ ?
 
 
 No.. in His absense Jesus instructed His followers to stick to the task at hand and concentrate on the "lost sheep" of Israel rather than go into Gentile territory, quite different from saying to avoid gentiles at all costs, again any claims of Jesus having an aversion to Gentiles is debunked in Mat 8. - Damo
 
Nice try but I ain't buying it.
 Ben
 
 
 
It's neither here nor there...what you buy into
 but you sourced the NT for your argument, i just used the same source to prove your statement wrong..
++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
Okay, so we have reached an impasse. I mean, a stalemate. Congratulations you won. I am going to think about another thread to post.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 8:08pm
Ben, would you consider that Jesus might have been baiting the woman after a fashion in order to see what kind of faith she had? I mean, Jesus even said that he didn't do the works but that the Father did them through him. The woman with menstrual problems touched the hem of his garment and was healed. Jesus was so in tune with the will of his father that a miracle could occur without him even being aware of the problem. The woman touched his clothes, God healed her and Jesus said "Who touched me?", not "YOU touched me".  Your claim that Jesus was demeaning the woman doesn't fly because the miracles were technically not under his control, meaning he didn't make the final decision regarding whether or not a healing took place. The miracles he performed were never conditional. He was, however, in the position to draw out what faith she had, allowing that faith to precipitate the miracle she desired. By sounding like he was less than willing to heal, he allowed her to show the degree of trust she had in him, and that display healed her daughter.


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

Ben, would you consider that Jesus might have been baiting the woman after a fashion in order to see what kind of faith she had? I mean, Jesus even said that he didn't do the works but that the Father did them through him. The woman with menstrual problems touched the hem of his garment and was healed. Jesus was so in tune with the will of his father that a miracle could occur without him even being aware of the problem. The woman touched his clothes, God healed her and Jesus said "Who touched me?", not "YOU touched me".  Your claim that Jesus was demeaning the woman doesn't fly because the miracles were technically not under his control, meaning he didn't make the final decision regarding whether or not a healing took place. The miracles he performed were never conditional. He was, however, in the position to draw out what faith she had, allowing that faith to precipitate the miracle she desired. By sounding like he was less than willing to heal, he allowed her to show the degree of trust she had in him, and that display healed her daughter.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
Do you know who is the one with faith that moves mountains? You my friend, who are only too ready to believe anything that Paul and his cronies wrote about Jesus. But anything negative about him you are not
ready to believe. That's faith. And faith that moves mountains. Believe me.
 
You can't imagine how many have come up almost everywhere in Catholic
countries with news about miracles that Mother Teresa has made. You don't believe, do you? I don't blame you; but many do. And she will end up by being sanctified for those miracles.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 9:19am
Ben, I re-read my post and nowhere did I say "Ben, here's a tangent. Run with it." I made specific suggestions thinking you might comment. I still hope you might.


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Ben Masada

[
You can't imagine how many have come up almost everywhere in Catholic
countries with news about miracles that Mother Teresa has made. You don't believe, do you? I don't blame you; but many do. And she will end up by being sanctified for those miracles.
 
Ben
 
 Catholic countries yes.. but of all the claims of mirraculous Divine intervention. Only a tiny percentage of them are actually recognised by the Catholic church as genuine.


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

Ben, I re-read my post and nowhere did I say "Ben, here's a tangent. Run with it." I made specific suggestions thinking you might comment. I still hope you might.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
Refresh me. I am not sure what you are talking about.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Ben Masada

[
You can't imagine how many have come up almost everywhere in Catholic
countries with news about miracles that Mother Teresa has made. You don't believe, do you? I don't blame you; but many do. And she will end up by being sanctified for those miracles.
 
Ben
 
 Catholic countries yes.. but of all the claims of mirraculous Divine intervention. Only a tiny percentage of them are actually recognised by the Catholic church as genuine.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
My point was to show how too faithful you are. You have got to leave some room for questioning.
 
Ben


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Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 5:50pm
I agree.. but equally there must also be room for faith. Anyone who holds to a belief in an all powerful God must use reason as far as is possible as well as ponder the phenomanal. Do you as a Jew believe in the parting of the Red Sea ? How can anyone accept that as real event if examined from a completely rational perspective such a belief equally takes a large leap of faith. Or do you also rationalise the event by interpreting it to mean something completely symbolic and not an actual part of litteral history ?

-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by Damo808

I agree.. but equally there must also be room for faith. Anyone who holds to a belief in an all powerful God must use reason as far as is possible as well as ponder the phenomanal. Do you as a Jew believe in the parting of the Red Sea ? How can anyone accept that as real event if examined from a completely rational perspective such a belief equally takes a large leap of faith. Or do you also rationalise the event by interpreting it to mean something completely symbolic and not an actual part of litteral history ?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
I am going to answer your question with another.  Do you believe that
Joshua opened up the Jordan river so that more than a million people crossed over the dry river bed? If you ask me, it could have been even a greater miracle. With Moses six thousand people passed through; with Joshua, more than a million. Why one never hears about the crossing of the Jordan?
 
I am not denying the parting of the Red Sea. But how about the parting
of the Jordan river? Something of the sort did happen back there which
turned out into a legendary epic. And I do accept the epics of my People.
However, I am not ready to defend it on a literal basis. It could have been
metaphorical, since I haven't seen any archaeological proofs yet.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:54pm
 
So you at least accept, that there are some things that simply just cannot be defended on a litteral basis yet your  beyond all doubt such things could only have been made possible by God ?
 


-------------
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 
So you at least accept, that there are some things that simply just cannot be defended on a litteral basis yet your  beyond all doubt such things could only have been made possible by God ?
 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
Nature is the main tool in the "hands" of God to work marvels.
 
Ben


-------------
Ben Masada


Posted By: Ben Masada
Date Posted: 25 December 2008 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Damo808

I agree.. but equally there must also be room for faith. Anyone who holds to a belief in an all powerful God must use reason as far as is possible as well as ponder the phenomanal. 
_____________________
 
Hope for the best but never seriously put your faith on anything. By doing
so, you will be betting your own self. Faith is too misleading. Faith is of the
faithful. Hope is of the hoped-for. Faith usually leads to disappointment,
and sometimes to tragedies. Remember the faithful of Jim Jones? That's
what faith produces, if you don't use the leash.
 
Ben: <*)))><


-------------
Ben Masada



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