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Muslim Woman and Dignity: is there any ga

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Topic: Muslim Woman and Dignity: is there any ga
Posted By: Meriam
Subject: Muslim Woman and Dignity: is there any ga
Date Posted: 20 August 2010 at 8:24pm

Peace brothers andd sisters,

An event  commanly used by some non muslims as an argument to offend to the justice of Islam and its value in Honoring woman as a Human Being making her as a Queen wherever she is , whenever and whatever her social class or level of education.....
The woman in islam is a Queen at home or outside , in occident or in oriental world.......
So sisters and brothers , especially my sisters who embraced Islam , can you please show to the world and especially those above that they see the opposite, what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice?
Is there any difference between man and woman as muslims , a difference wich imply any ''supremacy''of one over the other?
 
Thank you in advance to any usefulness showing the truth which is becoming progressively distorted rather hidden by such many who want to cut the longue of this truth...
 
God bless you all sisters and brothers and helps us all to enlight that truth.
Salamouallaykom



Replies:
Posted By: iafiaf
Date Posted: 21 August 2010 at 2:40pm
Islam is perfect Alhamdulliah. It is freedom in such a caged world. I have never in my life felt so at peace and so equal to all the other brothers and sisters, Islam is a religon that does not put anyone in higher rank than anyone else for everybody is equal in the sight of Almighty God, but God only ranks people by their righteous deeds....What is more beautiful than that? What is more pure? 
Islam surely is peace for the whole of mankind! And nobody is opressed especially NOT women we women are free we are treated with so much respect unlike all those women in the western world today who show of their bodies etc, the ones whom do that who make themseleves that low in society (showing off their bodyparts etc) are truely the opressed....we muslimah are submitting to the will of God so therefore we are free!
What many people misinterpret about Islam is the status of men and women, their ignorance and arrogance assumes that men are superior to women which is TRUELY false, read the quran and you will surely see your stupidity-the ones whom assume the heirachy.... Islam states that men and women are equal but have different roles in life, which is clearly obvious, because men are stronger than women physically and emotionally....Before anyone judges Islam my advice to them is: DO YOUR RESEARCH AND STOP
MISINTERPRETING THE QURAN AND BEING SO ISLAMAPHOBIC AND SAYING THINGS THAT ARE UNTRUE! 

Islam is beautiful. AllahhuAkbar- God surely is the Greatest.
May God guide us all and after God has guided us may he never misguide us.


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May peace be with everyone.
May Allah grant us all jannah al firdaus. Amen.


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 10:18am
My new born god daughter was left on the streets of a small town in Pakistan to die by her maternal (Muslim) grandfather because she was a female and the mother had refused to move to the US with her husband. 

The American father's extended family heard what was happening to the baby and rescued her from the street.  They then notified the American father.  The father and his father were rushed through .gov channels to where the baby had been taken by their family members and brought her out.  She is 9 years old now, absolutely beautiful, intelligent and lives a wonderful life in the USA. 

The baby's (Muslim) mother was sold to an older man as wife #4 from whom she is now divorced with even more children she has a hard time caring for. 


Posted By: jimdi3
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 12:09pm
 IafIaf, your post reads and sounds like a lesson learned to be parroted without thought. You appear blind and deaf to the World's news and the treatment your Sisters (?) are experiencing. If you are not blind and are aware of their suffering ....... then what you have posted has no meaning.
 
Perfect, such purity and rank. It is so rank it rankels.


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hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Grotham

My new born god daughter was left on the streets of a small town in Pakistan to die by her maternal (Muslim) grandfather because she was a female and the mother had refused to move to the US with her husband. 

The American father's extended family heard what was happening to the baby and rescued her from the street.  They then notified the American father.  The father and his father were rushed through .gov channels to where the baby had been taken by their family members and brought her out.  She is 9 years old now, absolutely beautiful, intelligent and lives a wonderful life in the USA. 

The baby's (Muslim) mother was sold to an older man as wife #4 from whom she is now divorced with even more children she has a hard time caring for. 


Where in Islam does it say this kind of behavior is acceptable? Please cite a specific source from the Qur'an and/or Hadith.

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) specifically forbade this. He loved his daughter Fatima as much as any dad could.

What happened to the girl you cite above is a tragedy and never should have happened. But it has nothing to do with what Islam teaches.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 5:32pm
What happened to this poor little baby was the result of culture and not religion.  The Qur'an specifically prohibits harming baby girls since this was a practice at the time the Qur'an was revealed.

“O you who believe!  You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the bridal money you have given them. And live with them honourably.  If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and God brings a great deal of good through it.” (Quran 4:19)

And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in the earth[]? Certainly, evil is their decision.  (Qur'an 16:58,59)


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Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 5:54pm
Thank you Searching for your references.

The verses 16:58-59 is referring to how God condemns this very behavior. One translation ends verse 59 with "Miserable indeed is their judgment."


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker



Where in Islam does it say this kind of behavior is acceptable? Please cite a specific source from the Qur'an and/or Hadith.

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) specifically forbade this. He loved his daughter Fatima as much as any dad could.

What happened to the girl you cite above is a tragedy and never should have happened. But it has nothing to do with what Islam teaches.


The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Grotham

My new born god daughter was left on the streets of a small town in Pakistan to die by her maternal (Muslim) grandfather because she was a female and the mother had refused to move to the US with her husband. 

The American father's extended family heard what was happening to the baby and rescued her from the street.  They then notified the American father.  The father and his father were rushed through .gov channels to where the baby had been taken by their family members and brought her out.  She is 9 years old now, absolutely beautiful, intelligent and lives a wonderful life in the USA. 

The baby's (Muslim) mother was sold to an older man as wife #4 from whom she is now divorced with even more children she has a hard time caring for. 
You can mention many other situation which is the same even worse and more tragedy in your country from people who are Christian or Jew or athiest,....

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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by searching

What happened to this poor little baby was the result of culture and not religion.  The Qur'an specifically prohibits harming baby girls since this was a practice at the time the Qur'an was revealed.

“O you who believe!  You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the bridal money you have given them. And live with them honourably.  If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and God brings a great deal of good through it.” (Quran 4:19)

And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in the earth[]? Certainly, evil is their decision.  (Qur'an 16:58,59)


All those nice flowery words don't mean anything unless people heed them in the best positive way.   In this case a baby could have died.  It seems to me the Muslim community who knows the true meanings of their teachings need to help their co-religionists understand so they will be more accepted in the world.  Even tribal and cultural attributes have a right and wrong and that is one of the lamest excuses of all to use. 


Posted By: stranger
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by Grotham


]The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


The Qur'an is not going to physically stop anyone from doing anything. However if any of these people were truly muslim and actually followed the Qur'an then no such thing would have ever happened.

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Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “He who does not show mercy to people, Allah also does not show mercy to him.” [Bukhari]


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by The_Seeker



Where in Islam does it say this kind of behavior is acceptable? Please cite a specific source from the Qur'an and/or Hadith.

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) specifically forbade this. He loved his daughter Fatima as much as any dad could.

What happened to the girl you cite above is a tragedy and never should have happened. But it has nothing to do with what Islam teaches.


The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


So everything Muslims do is Islamic? The entire Muslim community (1.5 billion worldwide) should be held accountable for what these people do?




-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

You can mention many other situation which is the same even worse and more tragedy in your country from people who are Christian or Jew or athiest,....


Why not just tell the truth, the people who did that and let it happen were wrong and need to learn the "real" Islam for a change.  Isn't that what people are saying in defense of Park51?  Why not go to the root of the problems, the places it is worst and work there amongst those ill informed people?  Then maybe the "real" Islam will have a better reputation.


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by The_Seeker



Where in Islam does it say this kind of behavior is acceptable? Please cite a specific source from the Qur'an and/or Hadith.

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) specifically forbade this. He loved his daughter Fatima as much as any dad could.

What happened to the girl you cite above is a tragedy and never should have happened. But it has nothing to do with what Islam teaches.


The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


So everything Muslims do is Islamic? The entire Muslim community (1.5 billion worldwide) should be held accountable for what these people do?




The "Muslim community" in that town .. the ones who knew, who helped and the ones who stood silently while that baby was left in an alleyway.   I doubt that is your 1.5 bil but if it is, shame on them.


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by stranger

Originally posted by Grotham


]The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


The Qur'an is not going to physically stop anyone from doing anything. However if any of these people were truly muslim and actually followed the Qur'an then no such thing would have ever happened.


Then, those of you who know better go and teach the ones who don't.  That would go a long way toward world peace and you would be fulfilling your own religious goals, nu?


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by Grotham


All those nice flowery words don't mean anything unless people heed them in the best positive way.   In this case a baby could have died.  It seems to me the Muslim community who knows the true meanings of their teachings need to help their co-religionists understand so they will be more accepted in the world.  Even tribal and cultural attributes have a right and wrong and that is one of the lamest excuses of all to use. 


I'm still waiting for a reference in the Quran or Hadith that makes this behavior acceptable.

Stories like this are only news because of the horrendous crime involved. "If it bleeds, it leads" as  journalists say. You don't hear about people doing good things, it just doesn't make good news. Does the news report about the thousands of daily flights that land without incident? No, you only hear about the plane crashes and when something unusual happens.

I sure don't condemn the entire Catholic community for all the pedophile priests that have been arrested over the last several years. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a few bad apples within the Catholic church. Yet all the good Catholics do via their charities and social work never make the news.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by mai moslemah

You can mention many other situation which is the same even worse and more tragedy in your country from people who are Christian or Jew or athiest,....


Why not just tell the truth, the people who did that and let it happen were wrong and need to learn the "real" Islam for a change.


Uh, I already said this was a horrendous act, a tragedy, and never should have happened and it was wrong of them to do.

But they didn't do it for religious reasons. You're trying to make this incident the fault of Islam when it's not. Criminals will do what they do regardless of the religion they follow.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by Grotham



Then, those of you who know better go and teach the ones who don't.  That would go a long way toward world peace and you would be fulfilling your own religious goals, nu?


This is not a religious issue! What they did to that little girl has nothing to do with Islam.

And now suddenly this is an issue of world peace???

Seriously, you need to stop this "collective punishment" attitude you have towards Muslims. I'm not responsible for what other Muslims do around the world do. I can only pray that they give up this kind of behavior and seek forgiveness.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Grotham

My new born god daughter was left on the streets of a small town in Pakistan to die by her maternal (Muslim) grandfather because she was a female and the mother had refused to move to the US with her husband. 

The American father's extended family heard what was happening to the baby and rescued her from the street.  They then notified the American father.  The father and his father were rushed through .gov channels to where the baby had been taken by their family members and brought her out.  She is 9 years old now, absolutely beautiful, intelligent and lives a wonderful life in the USA. 

The baby's (Muslim) mother was sold to an older man as wife #4 from whom she is now divorced with even more children she has a hard time caring for. 
 
Let me show you what islam teach us about dealing with  our children especially daughters
 
 
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever has three daughters and is patient with them and gives them to drink and clothes them, they will be a protection for him against the Fire.”They said, “O Messenger of Allaah, what about two?” He said, “And two.” They did not ask him about one.
 
the Mother of the Believers `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) also reported: "I have not seen a person more resembling to or following in the footsteps of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) than his daughter Fatimah (may Allah be pleased with her). Whenever she visited him (peace and blessings be upon him), he would receive her himself, kiss her, and have a seat for her beside him (peace and blessings be upon him). And whenever he visited her, she (may Allah be pleased with her) would receive him herself, kiss him, and have a seat for him beside her." (Reported by At-Tirmidhi and Al-Hakim).
 
The prophet peace be upon him said“Fear Allaah and treat your children fairly.”
 
There is so many other hadith which will prove to you that the Islamic teaching is very gentle and kind towards daughters
 
 




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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 8:41pm
This type of thing, as I said, is a cultural problem.  God was trying to stop this horrible practice by condemning it in the Qur'an.  But people don't always do what they should.  So one really can't attribute this to Islam when the most important holy book in Islam specifically prohibits it. 

There is female infanticide in China and other countries.  Is this also the fault of Islam?  Of course not, it is a disgusting cultural practice. 


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Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



Then, those of you who know better go and teach the ones who don't.  That would go a long way toward world peace and you would be fulfilling your own religious goals, nu?


This is not a religious issue! What they did to that little girl has nothing to do with Islam.

And now suddenly this is an issue of world peace???

Seriously, you need to stop this "collective punishment" attitude you have towards Muslims. I'm not responsible for what other Muslims do around the world do. I can only pray that they give up this kind of behavior and seek forgiveness.


Granted, it's not entirely a religious issue but this time it was committed by Muslims in a Muslim community in a Muslim majority country where Islam is the main religion.  Regardless of what you say, religion does enter into the picture. 

Instead of nagging about Islam not being the problem why aren't you concerned that this happens often in Muslim majority countries and work to HELP stop such debaucheries?  

With all the knowledge on this board alone, surely there is someone interested in stopping the murder of innocent children and the tie that gets you in the door in Pakistan, whether you like it or not, is Islam.  


Don't you do dawah to your own?  You could help instead of wasting your time griping. 




Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by searching

This type of thing, as I said, is a cultural problem.   No kidding?  I sort of knew that. 


God was trying to stop this horrible practice by condemning it in the Qur'an.  But people don't always do what they should.  So one really can't attribute this to Islam when the most important holy book in Islam specifically prohibits it. 

Then it's time to take the bull by the horns and teach/preach to the ill-informed. 

There is female infanticide in China and other countries.  Is this also the fault of Islam?  Of course not, it is a disgusting cultural practice. 
 

Of course it's not.  Do you take me for a fool saying that? 

In China this problem would be addressed in a different way .. such as limiting the # of children a couple can have.   I doubt Islam with all its flowery words would make a dent in "cultural" Chinese.  


If you knew much about anthropology, you would know that this practice is not disgusting to the barbarian cultures that practice it. 


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

 
Let me show you what islam teach us about dealing with  our children especially daughters



Instead of all this preaching, why can't you just say it's wonderful that the child survived and it's regrettable this sort of thing happens in this day and time? 

I don't give a fig what Islam "says" about 'our children especially daughters'
As I said previously, words don't mean a thing without action.  Did Mohammed just talk and preach or did he take action?  Aren't you supposed to imitate him?


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by mai moslemah

 
Let me show you what islam teach us about dealing with  our children especially daughters



Instead of all this preaching, why can't you just say it's wonderful that the child survived and it's regrettable this sort of thing happens in this day and time? 

I don't give a fig what Islam "says" about 'our children especially daughters'
As I said previously, words don't mean a thing without action.  Did Mohammed just talk and preach or did he take action?  Aren't you supposed to imitate him?
Grotham, this is an Islamic forum you must expect that we present what Islam teach, call it preaching or whatever you like.Of course I am sorry for the child but i dont accept to make islam is the reason for her pain
 
Regarding your question:
Did Mohammed just talk and preach or did he take action?  Aren't you supposed to imitate him?
This is a very good question. Do you know that it was a culture in Arabia before Islam came to burry girls alife!!! because they believe it is a shame to have a baby girl, and Islam make this prohibted and from the time islam came this habit is vanished . "And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked For what sin she was killed" Quran 81:8-9
 
the hadith in my previous post show you how the prophet teached Muslims that a daughter can be a reason of protection from hell fire which has great change in Muslim family life.You might had bad experience but you cant generalize it, abusing is a global issue


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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 10:49pm
Sorry, but I'm with Grotham on this.  It may not be a purely religious issue...here in  the US.  However, when speaking of ME/islamic  majority countries, it is part of the issue.  It's all fine and grand to say, "That's culture, not religion!!," but we all know that tribal custom, culture and religion get all mixed up there.  Law, religion, cultural hot mess.  Truth is, she's right.  Y'all can sit here, typing the same stuff in over and over, but until the people from  that part of the world start acting it, the way y'all are talkin' it up...won't make a difference.  THEY have to be the ones to prove it to the rest of the world.  We can't do it for them.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 11:02pm

salam Cyra

the OP was discussing this question "what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
 
Grotham story was trying to answer this question that Islam is injustice to women
 
I dont agree as his story can happen in any part of the world
I dont know about the culture in pakistan but generalization cant be the truth.there might be muslims who do opress women but not Islam.I am a Muslim, my parent are Muslim and i was never opressed but i can claim this was because of Islam


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by Grotham

  

Instead of nagging about Islam not being the problem why aren't you concerned that this happens often in Muslim majority countries and work to HELP stop such debaucheries?
 

When did I say I wasn't concerned about these issues? It's a human rights issue, so what are YOU doing to help stop such crimes?

And why do you assume I'm not doing anything? You have a nasty habit of assuming the worst in Muslims.


With all the knowledge on this board alone, surely there is someone interested in stopping the murder of innocent children and the tie that gets you in the door in Pakistan, whether you like it or not, is Islam.


 
Again, you are assuming no Muslim here is doing anything.  


Don't you do dawah to your own?  You could help instead of wasting your time griping. 


You really like to blame people, don't you.

You could also help instead of blaming Muslims for the world's ills.

Honestly, you are just taking this thread around in circles. You tried to blame Islam for what happened, then when you failed to produce any credible evidence that Islam condones violence against kids/women/fill-in-the-blank-here, you accused us of not caring. Then when we say we care, you accuse us of taking no action.

You have such a deep-seated hatred of Islam that nothing we say or do will satisfy you. As a Jew, you should understand the consequences of playing the blame-game and using collective punishment against an entire religion.






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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Grotham



Instead of all this preaching, why can't you just say it's wonderful that the child survived and it's regrettable this sort of thing happens in this day and time? 


Are you kidding me??? Do we honestly need to actually come out and say we are happy that this child survived??? Do you really have such a dim view of Muslims that if we don't come out and say something like this, then we must not think it???

Okay then, for the record, I'm thrilled and extremely happy and it's wonderful this child survived. May Allah(swt) reward her for the hardships she has endured. Ameen.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 22 August 2010 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

salam Cyra

the OP was discussing this question "what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
 
Grotham story was trying to answer this question that Islam is injustice to women
 
I dont agree as his story can happen in any part of the world
I dont know about the culture in pakistan but generalization cant be the truth.there might be muslims who do opress women but not Islam.I am a Muslim, my parent are Muslim and i was never opressed but i can claim this was because of Islam


Thank you sister.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:26am
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by searching

This type of thing, as I said, is a cultural problem.   No kidding?  I sort of knew that. 


God was trying to stop this horrible practice by condemning it in the Qur'an.  But people don't always do what they should.  So one really can't attribute this to Islam when the most important holy book in Islam specifically prohibits it. 

Then it's time to take the bull by the horns and teach/preach to the ill-informed. 

There is female infanticide in China and other countries.  Is this also the fault of Islam?  Of course not, it is a disgusting cultural practice. 
 

Of course it's not.  Do you take me for a fool saying that? 

In China this problem would be addressed in a different way .. such as limiting the # of children a couple can have.   I doubt Islam with all its flowery words would make a dent in "cultural" Chinese.  


If you knew much about anthropology, you would know that this practice is not disgusting to the barbarian cultures that practice it. 


If I knew much about anthropology, I would know that it's not disgusting to the cultures that practice it?  Really?  I don't think you need to know so much about anthropology to know that the cultures practicing it don't think it's disgusting.  Of course they don't.  If they did, they wouldn't practice it.   This is just common sense, not anthropology.

And if you knew that this was a cultural problem, as you said "No kidding? I sort of knew that," then you wouldn't be posting this in an Islamic forum would you?  You'd be posting it in an international women's rights forum or some other venue.  And the words of the Qur'an are not "flowery," they are the commands of God to the Muslims.  And true Muslims are supposed to follow them.  Do you also think that the words of the Torah are "flowery?" 


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Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 4:56am
Originally posted by Grotham

My new born god daughter was left on the streets of a small town in Pakistan to die by her maternal (Muslim) grandfather because she was a female and the mother had refused to move to the US with her husband. 

The American father's extended family heard what was happening to the baby and rescued her from the street.  They then notified the American father.  The father and his father were rushed through .gov channels to where the baby had been taken by their family members and brought her out.  She is 9 years old now, absolutely beautiful, intelligent and lives a wonderful life in the USA. 

The baby's (Muslim) mother was sold to an older man as wife #4 from whom she is now divorced with even more children she has a hard time caring for. 
Hello Grotham,
The story of the baby that you had reported here is so touching and dramatic but what is more tragedic than this,  is to take Islam as an argument to deny this act and describe it as an absolute nonsense...
Islam is a religion as judaism ; both are sent by God to us for our good, for our guidance to the light...a light of good manners and valuable morals...a light of mercy and justice......
The Qu'ran is its pillar of Divine verdicts and not ''flowery words''to sing or to say for vain......
Grotham, we are all people of the BOOK ''Ahlo elkitab''..then we should respect the belief of each one without any mockery or any Hostility because you know well that all Holybooks are sent by ONE GOD who is mine, yours, her , his and their Lord.....sent for one aim: To worship ONE God ......and I don't think even a second of time that any Holybook as it is sent by God trys to divert us from the way of virtues or values to make us do like this injuste gesture on the right of an innocent as that baby....
this is not acceptable anymore by any reasonable human's mind...
 
And as my sister Searching said that this bad behaviour comes from a specific environmental culture there in that coin of that land , and not from religion....
 
Grotham, I said already that we should be more objective and wise in any debate without any Bias to this or that sect nor prejudice but just a seek for the truth.......
 
Your story seems to deflect the discussion off topic not because any disagreement but because the question was:
''what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
The answer exceeds what you speak about Grotham even if you had spoken about a female and her hardship because of her sex despite of her childhood....
 
In all cases, Brothers and sisters, thank you for each one who has interested to reply to this request.
Greetings
 
 


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 8:45am
Originally posted by The_Seeker



When did I say I wasn't concerned about these issues? It's a human rights issue, so what are YOU doing to help stop such crimes? 

 I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  


And why do you assume I'm not doing anything? You have a nasty habit of assuming the worst in Muslims.

Actually, I have a very good opinion of Muslims I know personally who live the words of Qur'an - they don't just talk and preach, they act and in doing so present a positive picture of Islam in a day and time when that is hard to do given circumstances.



Again, you are assuming no Muslim here is doing anything. 

 When no one is speaking out about the injustices but just type words, one can honestly "assume" they are doing nothing because they don't bother to mention what they are doing ... they just give opinions based on script and say how it "ought to be according to...." but don't give personal life experiences.



You really like to blame people, don't you. 

No, I don't but I will call out the injustices and apathy when I see and experience them as was done with my god daughter. 

You could also help instead of blaming Muslims for the world's ills. 

What makes you think I haven't?

Honestly, you are just taking this thread around in circles. You tried to blame Islam for what happened, 

I explained a personal situation as it happened with all its warts.



then when you failed to produce any credible evidence that Islam condones violence against kids/women/fill-in-the-blank-here, 

The subject was not Islam was at fault, the subject of my story is what happened in a Muslim country to a Muslim child and woman committed by Muslims and no Muslim entity stopped this near tragedy.
  That is not saying Islam is at fault, it is saying the people involved were at fault.  Big difference


you accused us of not caring. Then when we say we care, you accuse us of taking no action. 

I didn't read any caring about the baby involved or the consequences of the situation, only defensiveness at how Islam isn't at fault and then a bunch of flowery words that stopped nothing because, obviously, the Muslims involved don't practice what is supposedly preached to them.

You have such a deep-seated hatred of Islam that nothing we say or do will satisfy you. 

You speak falsely about me and, again, you are not my judge. 



As a Jew, you should understand the consequences of playing the blame-game and using collective punishment against an entire religion.


I did no collective punishment blame game talk against an entire religion.  I spoke to the circumstances of a (one) situation on the ground which you and most of your cohorts missed the point of entirely and delved into needless defensiveness.  So much for action, seeker, you just type more meaningless words ... trying to do a blame game of your own on me.    LOL


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Meriam

Hello Grotham,
The story of the baby that you had reported here is so touching and dramatic but what is more tragedic than this,  is to take Islam as an argument to deny this act and describe it as an absolute nonsense...
Islam is a religion as judaism ; both are sent by God to us for our good, for our guidance to the light...a light of good manners and valuable morals...a light of mercy and justice......
The Qu'ran is its pillar of Divine verdicts and not ''flowery words''to sing or to say for vain......
Grotham, we are all people of the BOOK ''Ahlo elkitab''..then we should respect the belief of each one without any mockery or any Hostility because you know well that all Holybooks are sent by ONE GOD who is mine, yours, her , his and their Lord.....sent for one aim: To worship ONE God ......and I don't think even a second of time that any Holybook as it is sent by God trys to divert us from the way of virtues or values to make us do like this injuste gesture on the right of an innocent as that baby....
this is not acceptable anymore by any reasonable human's mind...
 
And as my sister Searching said that this bad behaviour comes from a specific environmental culture there in that coin of that land , and not from religion....
 
Grotham, I said already that we should be more objective and wise in any debate without any Bias to this or that sect nor prejudice but just a seek for the truth.......
 
Your story seems to deflect the discussion off topic not because any disagreement but because the question was:
''what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
The answer exceeds what you speak about Grotham even if you had spoken about a female and her hardship because of her sex despite of her childhood....
 
In all cases, Brothers and sisters, thank you for each one who has interested to reply to this request.
Greetings
 


And I explained  myself quite adequately in a situation involving a woman and a baby.  That you fail to see the point and mistake it to be something else, is your problem. 

You see what happens here when you think someone disagrees with you?  The rest of you, sans one, pile on like a pack of hungry wolves ready to tear apart the one who seems to disagree and deflect the topic yourselves while failing to look inward for the answers. 

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Grotham



You speak falsely about me and, again, you are not my judge. 




It stinks having people make assumptions about you, doesn't it? You're right, I am not your judge (only God is), and likewise, you are not our judge.

This is an internet forum. Flowery or not, all we have on here are words.




-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Grotham



The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


You make statements like this and then wonder why we get defensive? Whether you intended to or not, you are pitting on religion against another and calling Islam inferior. Yes, we are insulted by this.

Do you honestly think there are no Islamic aid groups in Pakistan (and other ME countries) working to help the children/orphans/women and others?

So again you are assuming there are no Muslims working to stop these horrific practices.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:56am
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


You make statements like this and then wonder why we get defensive? Whether you intended to or not, you are pitting on religion against another and calling Islam inferior. Yes, we are insulted by this.

Do you honestly think there are no Islamic aid groups in Pakistan (and other ME countries) working to help the children/orphans/women and others?

So again you are assuming there are no Muslims working to stop these horrific practices.
Brother the Seeker,
thank you for your clarfication here .
Go ahead...The right has always its tongue to speak with...
The right can never be hidden or mute although the most powerful voices become more and more height......
God bless you and don't mind ....The right still heigher than the wrong and the nonsense forever until the Day of Judgement.
Salam


Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Grotham

Originally posted by Meriam

Hello Grotham,
The story of the baby that you had reported here is so touching and dramatic but what is more tragedic than this,  is to take Islam as an argument to deny this act and describe it as an absolute nonsense...
Islam is a religion as judaism ; both are sent by God to us for our good, for our guidance to the light...a light of good manners and valuable morals...a light of mercy and justice......
The Qu'ran is its pillar of Divine verdicts and not ''flowery words''to sing or to say for vain......
Grotham, we are all people of the BOOK ''Ahlo elkitab''..then we should respect the belief of each one without any mockery or any Hostility because you know well that all Holybooks are sent by ONE GOD who is mine, yours, her , his and their Lord.....sent for one aim: To worship ONE God ......and I don't think even a second of time that any Holybook as it is sent by God trys to divert us from the way of virtues or values to make us do like this injuste gesture on the right of an innocent as that baby....
this is not acceptable anymore by any reasonable human's mind...
 
And as my sister Searching said that this bad behaviour comes from a specific environmental culture there in that coin of that land , and not from religion....
 
Grotham, I said already that we should be more objective and wise in any debate without any Bias to this or that sect nor prejudice but just a seek for the truth.......
 
Your story seems to deflect the discussion off topic not because any disagreement but because the question was:
''what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
The answer exceeds what you speak about Grotham even if you had spoken about a female and her hardship because of her sex despite of her childhood....
 
In all cases, Brothers and sisters, thank you for each one who has interested to reply to this request.
Greetings
 


And I explained  myself quite adequately in a situation involving a woman and a baby.  That you fail to see the point and mistake it to be something else, is your problem. 

You see what happens here when you think someone disagrees with you?  The rest of you, sans one, pile on like a pack of hungry wolves ready to tear apart the one who seems to disagree and deflect the topic yourselves while failing to look inward for the answers. 

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 
Thanks Grotham for your comment.
Sister, as I said, I don't overlook any word in your reported story...
Such many brothers and sisters here and me among them said you already that the baby's hardship is so touching and  absolutely refused as bad behaviour coming by muslim or non muslim man......
The problematic is not here , it is not to cry or to not forwards this story...
The problematic resides in what you want to say and you said already through this story ...
If you want just to offend to any religion as Islam , we can stand up and we say: No Grotham...The meaning and the morals of any right religion as it is sent by God the All Mighty the merciful, are so heigher than this nonsense done by some of people who don't understand well the value of their religion's verdicts....
You belong rto people of the Book , I guess, sister and you know or supposed to understand well this coin .
But if you want just to discuss one of the injuste aspect on the right of woman as a female refering to some injuste cultural customs in some corners of the earth, we can say: Yes, yre welcome sister..
It is not like you said:''a pack of hungry wolves ready to tear apart the one who seems to disagree''..
No grotham, we are not here in war but in a forum supposed to be open to argue and discuss without hurt nor lies..without any offend to any other sacred thing as Religion....Religion whatever it is from Judaism to Islam , is the justice itself and can never be a source of any evil...
If there is any evil or bad manner, this can comes only from ourselves as imperfect man.
By the way, I repeat for millions that the Difference in opinions is not a torn bridge but it is a continued way to complementarity...
This is the reason.
And if the language of my question seems to be  , as you said sister, less coherant so it would be more reasonable than to do a feedback and focus on it to make it more coherent ....
If there is any wise assumption from you Grotham, it is welcome.
Thanks and Peace
 


Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by mai moslemah

salam Cyra

the OP was discussing this question "what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
Is there any injustice? "
 
Grotham story was trying to answer this question that Islam is injustice to women
 
I dont agree as his story can happen in any part of the world
I dont know about the culture in pakistan but generalization cant be the truth.there might be muslims who do opress women but not Islam.I am a Muslim, my parent are Muslim and i was never opressed but i can claim this was because of Islam


Thank you sister.
 
Then, I'm not entirely sure I understand the question.  I have been dealt personal injustices related to culture via many muslim's misinterpretation of islam.   I have been oppressed. 
 
ME muslims don't understand their own religion.  I base this on the fact that many can't seperate their religion from their cultural practices.  Religious law and civil law should  be 2 seperate things.  Religious law should be personal, not national.  Too much room for error, otherwise.   Why is it that in the time of the prophet (PBUH), women were so revered that their opinions counted, that they were allowed to pray in the same space as the men, that they could teach to the masses, they were allowed to fight alongside the men?  Women in islam have lost a lot of ground in the days since.  Sure, they still have their basic rights...but more often than not, those rights are usurped because the opinion of a man is held in higher regard.  Sure, on a personal level some of the men may treat their wife as a queen, but overall?  Nuh-uh.  On a personal level, why is it a man can say "You are divorced.," 3 times and that's that,  but if a woman wants it, she has to jump through so many hoops and then still ends up having to stay married to someone she doesn't want to be married to?  Like a woman doesn't know what is best for her?


Posted By: freedom-lover
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:51pm

Hi readers

 

As I read many posts and articles, I have observed much difference in the perspectives of Muslims and non-Muslims on several issues. Many readers in this forum have discussed the status of women in Islam. While non-Muslims argue women are discriminated in Islamic societies, Muslims argue they are equally or even better treated. Quite likely one of the groups is mistaken. Here I invoke a relevant example from former communist countries to understand the difference. But this does not mean communism is the same as Islam. During seventies, some Soviet diplomats in Paris asked the Kremlin to allow them to return to Moscow. Their reason was that they could not live any more in Paris because there was no freedom and no democracy! I can imagine two possibilities. First, they knew there was plenty of freedom in Paris compared with Moscow. But as part of advertisement to the world that communism is the best ideology in the world, they pretended that there was no freedom in Paris. Second, they really believed that there was plenty of freedom in Moscow but not in Paris, because their definition of freedom is totally different from the rest of the world. Through years of controlled education in school and home their perspective was changed completely. I am not sure if the first case or the second one or another explains much difference between Muslims and non-Muslims on many issues. Just feel free to share your answers with other readers.



Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 12:55pm
Well said, freedom-lover.  Another POV to consider...


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



The Qur'an didn't stop it from happening and neither did the Muslim community or Muslim law enforcement - but the Methodists sure did. 


You make statements like this and then wonder why we get defensive? Whether you intended to or not, you are pitting on religion against another and calling Islam inferior. Yes, we are insulted by this.

Do you honestly think there are no Islamic aid groups in Pakistan (and other ME countries) working to help the children/orphans/women and others?

So again you are assuming there are no Muslims working to stop these horrific practices.


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Grotham



I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  




You are obviously passionate about issues concerning children and women. Those you represent are lucky to have someone who is caring with a big heart. This is a very awesome quality for someone to have - if only more could be like you.

While I stand behind what I said, I think it's important that we look towards the good and work together to help those in need, regardless of religion, race, creed, etc.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Grotham


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


I don't doubt the tragic story you wrote about. That was never in question. My feelings were that Islam was being insulted. That was my perception. And to a certain extent you're right, that is my problem. But I think anyone of any religion will become defensive when they perceive their religion under attack. It's only natural to defend what we believe and hold dearly.

I do try to help those who are oppressed through my own means. But it's not something I share for fear that it will make it appear that I am bragging or helping for my own personal gain.

I'm not trying to diminish your work in any way, as your job has a direct impact helping people. I also didn't see you as bragging or anything when you said you are a court advocate for women and children.




-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Grotham



I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  




You are obviously passionate about issues concerning children and women. Those you represent are lucky to have someone who is caring with a big heart. This is a very awesome quality for someone to have - if only more could be like you.

While I stand behind what I said, I think it's important that we look towards the good in others and work together to help those in need, regardless of religion, race, creed, etc.



-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham



I am a court advocate for abused children and women.  




You are obviously passionate about issues concerning children and women. Those you represent are lucky to have someone who is caring with a big heart. This is a very awesome quality for someone to have - if only more could be like you.

While I stand behind what I said, I think it's important that we look towards the good in others and work together to help those in need, regardless of religion, race, creed, etc.

For some reason, editing this post made it post twice on the forum. Don't know what's going on with that.



-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:21pm
Anyone know if there's a way to delete posts that have been posted multiple times? For some reason when I edited the original post I wrote, it keeps getting added as a new one.

Mods: feel free to delete the above 2 posts. They are in error.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


I don't doubt the tragic story you wrote about. That was never in question. My feelings were that Islam was being insulted. That was my perception. And to a certain extent you're right, that is my problem. But I think anyone of any religion will become defensive when they perceive their religion under attack. It's only natural to defend what we believe and hold dearly.

I do try to help those who are oppressed through my own means. But it's not something I share for fear that it will make it appear that I am bragging or helping for my own personal gain.

I'm not trying to diminish your work in any way, as your job has a direct impact helping people. I also didn't see you as bragging or anything when you said you are a court advocate for women and children.




Thank you, seeker.  That is very gentlemanly of you.  I look forward to more discussions now that we have personalities out of the way.  ;-)


Posted By: freedom-lover
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

Originally posted by Grotham


I was relating the facts of the situation as it happened.  That would be called truth.  If the truth makes you defensive, that is your problem.  Quit trying to blame me for your problems with your religion.

seeker, you talk but you provide nothing to substantiate your implications.  I related a true life experience.  All you can do is accept it, you can't change it with your words and preaching.


I don't doubt the tragic story you wrote about. That was never in question. My feelings were that Islam was being insulted. That was my perception. And to a certain extent you're right, that is my problem. But I think anyone of any religion will become defensive when they perceive their religion under attack. It's only natural to defend what we believe and hold dearly.

I do try to help those who are oppressed through my own means. But it's not something I share for fear that it will make it appear that I am bragging or helping for my own personal gain.

I'm not trying to diminish your work in any way, as your job has a direct impact helping people. I also didn't see you as bragging or anything when you said you are a court advocate for women and children.


 
 

Hi The_Seeker

As you said, becoming defensive when people perceive their belief under criticism is natural, whether it is based on truth or not. In fact it is so natural that everybody including non-believers does that. But we, as believers in God, must go much beyond that. Human beings are bound to make a mistake and believers are no exception. But admitting our own mistakes and weakness requires courage and maturity. Admitting our own mistakes and weakness is often the first step to healing and improvement. We cannot justify our mistakes simply by arguing that being defensive is natural. Here is one of the shameful mistakes our spiritual ancestors made in the past and we learned a painful lesson from it.

 

I do admit that during the dark age of our belief (when our belief was nationalized long time ago) our spiritual forefathers did cruel things to humanity in the name of God through the Crusades, the Inquisition and some other means. They were in stark contrast to the unconditional love of Jesus for all human beings. Many innocent people including Jews and Muslims were persecuted during this Dark Age. On behalf of our spiritual ancestors I sincerely apologize to all humanity. Surely they were our shame and disgrace of the past. In order to avoid admitting our shameful mistakes and escape criticism from other people, I am tempted to argue that those people involved in the atrocities were not real Christians and they were Christians only by name. Maybe this is true. But whether they were Christians by name or by heart, they carried the name of Jesus Christ and thus disgraced His name. More importantly the most precious things in the universe, human lives, were lost. When I reflected on this shameful side of our belief in the past, I realized that the root cause of the problem was nationalization or institutionalization of belief!

 

When any belief is institutionalized, everybody in the society is required or forced to believe it from birth against their will. If any question or doubt is raised openly which is against the belief or its tradition, people are persecuted just for their different views. Because honest question or doubt is considered as dishonoring God, society and family, cruel punishments such as public execution and beating are justified and exercised. Without knowing that God regards human beings the most precious in the universe, religious and political leaders persecute their own people with the wrong perception that this cruel act purifies the society from evil and thus honors God. In fact these things are much more evil than immorality. It is very much like former communist countries such as North Korea with the only difference that the ideology of communism is replaced by the zeal of religion.

 

This is what I mean by the danger of nationalization or institutionalization of any belief. I am glad we do not live anymore in this shameful dark age of the past caused by the nationalization of belief. Belief should be a personal matter. It is a personal relationship between an individual and God. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or leave their belief. Only the Creator himself is above human beings because He created them. No religion, no religious or political rules, no religious or political traditions are above the precious human lives.

 

 


Posted By: iafiaf
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 3:27pm
 
Originally posted by jimdi3

IafIaf, your post reads and sounds like a lesson learned to be parroted without thought. You appear blind and deaf to the World's news and the treatment your Sisters (?) are experiencing. If you are not blind and are aware of their suffering ....... then what you have posted has no meaning.


Perfect, such purity and rank. It is so rank it rankels.
 

may peace be with you jimdi3, may God bless your ignorant and arrogant soul and show you the right path Amen. All I have to say to people like you is:
"To you be your way, and to me be mine."-Quran surah Al-Kafirun or those who reject faith, verse 6. The reason I quote this is because I could NOT care less what you think, I will always be a MUSLIM and follow the teachings of the Quran properly....so say what you want, it just goes to show that you are an ignorant FOOL who hasn't done his research.
.....I don't think you read my first post properly, which clearly shows that you are a fool... "DO YOUR RESEARCH" on Islam and you'll know what is the truth, if you did do your research PROPERLY you would have found that the media always writes negative things about Islam and that some people who do claim they are Muslim, well it's just a label for them (the ones whom cause atrocities) they don't even follow the true teachings of Islam, they distort them and misinterpret them just like people so ignorant and arrogant like you.....so do your research!!!
You claim to be a Christian, following the teaching of the PROPHET Jesus and yet you give Islam a bad name, Jesus is a Muslim so don't misinterpret/distort what he followed and MANY others follow--the path of Islam-peace.
....and don't tell me to do my research because I did it a long time ago, challenge me all you want but the truth always comes out in the end..... 


may God show you the right path in life and quit the hatred of Muslims, just by what you wrote to me I can see the hatred building in your words, because you are so against Islam, but as Jesus said: "love thy neigbour".....
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."-Matthew 7:1-2
  

-------------
May peace be with everyone.
May Allah grant us all jannah al firdaus. Amen.


Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Grotham

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 


Obviously, Meriam is not a native speaker of English. Your comment was quite rude. We should encourage diversity here, not discourage it by making rude comments about how people write. I'm glad to have the viewpoint of a Tunisian woman here.

-------------


Posted By: jimdi3
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by iafiaf

 
Originally posted by jimdi3

IafIaf, your post reads and sounds like a lesson learned to be parroted without thought. You appear blind and deaf to the World's news and the treatment your Sisters (?) are experiencing. If you are not blind and are aware of their suffering ....... then what you have posted has no meaning.


Perfect, such purity and rank. It is so rank it rankels.
 

may peace be with you jimdi3, may God bless your ignorant and arrogant soul and show you the right path Amen. All I have to say to people like you is:
"To you be your way, and to me be mine."-Quran surah Al-Kafirun or those who reject faith, verse 6. The reason I quote this is because I could NOT care less what you think, I will always be a MUSLIM and follow the teachings of the Quran properly....so say what you want, it just goes to show that you are an ignorant FOOL who hasn't done his research.
.....I don't think you read my first post properly, which clearly shows that you are a fool... "DO YOUR RESEARCH" on Islam and you'll know what is the truth, if you did do your research PROPERLY you would have found that the media always writes negative things about Islam and that some people who do claim they are Muslim, well it's just a label for them (the ones whom cause atrocities) they don't even follow the true teachings of Islam, they distort them and misinterpret them just like people so ignorant and arrogant like you.....so do your research!!!
You claim to be a Christian, following the teaching of the PROPHET Jesus and yet you give Islam a bad name, Jesus is a Muslim so don't misinterpret/distort what he followed and MANY others follow--the path of Islam-peace.
....and don't tell me to do my research because I did it a long time ago, challenge me all you want but the truth always comes out in the end..... 


may God show you the right path in life and quit the hatred of Muslims, just by what you wrote to me I can see the hatred building in your words, because you are so against Islam, but as Jesus said: "love thy neigbour".....
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."-Matthew 7:1-2
  
 
I think you should read what your Sisters think who actually live under Sharia Law.....
 
http://www.wluml.org/section/media/latest - http://www.wluml.org/section/media/latest
 
You have the wonderful advantage of living in the UK.
 
I do not know how old you are. I see however you describe yourself as a Student.  Even a late Student of 40 years just begins to match the time I have been involved with Islam and Muslims.
 
I am sure you will always remain a Muslim, it is far to dangerous to leave it anyway. Islam in the West is very comfortable ... try living it up country in Yemen before you blame me of ignorance. I have experienced it .... oh no, that is culture isn't it?
 
 
http://www.whyislam.org/forum/new_reply_form.asp?M=Q&PID=542312&PN=4&TR=50 -  
 
 


-------------
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham


Posted By: jimdi3
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 5:24pm
For those who don't know what wluml.org is ..... here is a taster:
 
http://www.wluml.org/node/5408 - http://www.wluml.org/node/5408
 
WHAT IS WOMEN LIVING UNDER MUSLIM LAWS?

Women Living Under Muslim Laws is an international solidarity network that provides information, support and a collective space for women whose lives are shaped, conditioned or governed by laws and customs said to derive from Islam.

For more than two decades WLUML has linked individual women and organisations. It now extends to more than 70 countries ranging from South Africa to Uzbekistan, Senegal to Indonesia and Brazil to France. It links:

  • women living in countries or states where Islam is the state religion, secular states with Muslim majorities as well as those from Muslim communities governed by minority religious laws;
  • women in secular states where political groups are demanding religious laws;
  • women in migrant Muslim communities in Europe, the Americas, and around the world;
  • non-Muslim women who may have Muslim laws applied to them directly or through their children;
  • women born into Muslim communities/families who are automatically categorized as Muslim but may not define themselves as such, either because they are not believers or because they choose not to identify themselves in religious terms, preferring to prioritise other aspects of their identity such as political ideology, profession, sexual orientation or others.

Our name challenges the myth of one, homogenous ‘Muslim world’. This deliberately created myth fails to reflect that: a) laws said to be Muslim vary from one context to another and, b) the laws that determine our lives are from diverse sources: religious, customary, colonial and secular. We are governed simultaneously by many different laws: laws recognised by the state (codified and uncodified) and informal laws such as customary practices which vary according to the cultural, social and political context.

As i tried to explain to iafiaf .... it is ok living the life in the west ... try living as a woman it the countries from and of these ladies speak.


-------------
hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham


Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 5:34pm
Um, iafiaf...hon, you would do well to do YOUR research.  I've known Jimdi on a cpl forums for a cpl years.  He could probably teach you a few things about your religion.  You've been on here for a little over a year while he's been on here for 5 years.  You number just over 100 posts while his number in the thousands.  He knows what he knows and you would also do well to respect that.


Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by searching

Originally posted by Grotham

BTW, the language of the original question is less than coherent so it's surprising you got any feedback at all but so be it. 


Obviously, Meriam is not a native speaker of English. Your comment was quite rude. We should encourage diversity here, not discourage it by making rude comments about how people write. I'm glad to have the viewpoint of a Tunisian woman here.


Did I ask for your opinion?  You are not my judge. 

This is an English language forum.  For those of us whose first language is not English, it is a good opportunity to practice.  If you are aware of her situation, why did you not privately coach her with the correct sentence structure instead of attempting to castigate me so rudely in public?



Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 6:51pm
I do not know Meriam personally. It's just common sense to assume that since she lives in Tunisia, where the official language is Arabic, it's likely that she isn't a native speaker. And as far as asking for my opinion, you post plenty of opinions here that no one asked for. That's what DISCUSSION boards are about. And I wouldn't have had to castigate you in public if you weren't acting so rude in public. I don't like to see that kind of rudeness on an international forum. English isn't the only language in the world and not everyone speaks it fluently but we need to be tolerant. So instead of posting a rude comment about how she wrote, why didn't you take your own advice and private message her in order to coach her?

-------------


Posted By: devd
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Grotham


Did I ask for your opinion?  You are not my judge. 
 
Calm down. She made a valid point regarding your lack of circumspection.
 
Originally posted by Grotham


This is an English language forum. 
 
Oh goodie.
 
Originally posted by Grotham

 For those of us whose first language is not English, it is a good opportunity to practice.
 
This messageboard is certainly multi-purpose!
 
Originally posted by Grotham

  If you are aware of her situation, why did you not privately coach her with the correct sentence structure instead of attempting to castigate me so rudely in public?
 
She didn't "attempt" to do anything. She flat out did it. And quite frankly, your attitude opened the door for it.


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 7:17pm
jimdi is a long standing TROLL on this forum. Just ignore him and whatever he says.



-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 7:29pm
To counter what jimdi has put up, here is a link to a CHRISTIAN organization which ministers to women and men in the strip club industry. Under ISLAMIC LAW, there is no strip club industry.

http://www.savedfromstripclubs.org/factsaboutexoticdancing.htm

jimdi, why dont u sort your own house first before lecturing others? Isn't that what Jesus told you to do? You care so much about oppressed women, go and get them out of all the strip clubs. Go and visit sets for porn movies and save those women. Or did Jesus tell you to use lies, misinformation and other such tactics behind a computer screen to call others to Christianity? And that's why you are wasting your life on this forum?

-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Meriam

Peace brothers andd sisters,

what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
 
Salam sister Meriem
( I am not a new Muslim by the way ) to answer your question
 
success, tranquility and trying to be helpful for other. I am raised in a religious Muslim family and there love, patience and sacrifice was a great power for me to success. i can admit that without my dady i would never be a doctor and with out the support i get i might not get high grades that qualify me to be a staff member in one of Egypt's universities.
 
Originally posted by Meriam

Is there any injustice?
 
 
Life is full of injustice, sometimes when other human being be unjust with you, it gives you more strength and experience in life, but injustice was never from Islam.
 
Originally posted by Meriam

Is there any difference between man and woman as Muslims , a difference which imply any ''supremacy''of one over the other?
 
 
 Of course there is difference.The concept of equality btw gender is not Islamic concept but the Islamic concept is equity ( both gender complete each other).Bother men and women have the same value but they have different rules in life and this is for their own good.and i personally believe that equality without equity is so unfair for women
 
let e give you an example:
 
Women get pregnant right?! why women should work with the same efficiency as men at the time of pregnancy, this would be so much load but because women are not like men there must be especial rules for pregnant and lactating women also women should be supported by Men (husbands or fathers) during these times or it wouldn't be fair
 
equality not always fair but equity is fair
 
 


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Grotham
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by searching

I do not know Meriam personally. It's just common sense to assume that since she lives in Tunisia, where the official language is Arabic, it's likely that she isn't a native speaker. And as far as asking for my opinion, you post plenty of opinions here that no one asked for. That's what DISCUSSION boards are about. And I wouldn't have had to castigate you in public if you weren't acting so rude in public. I don't like to see that kind of rudeness on an international forum. English isn't the only language in the world and not everyone speaks it fluently but we need to be tolerant. So instead of posting a rude comment about how she wrote, why didn't you take your own advice and private message her in order to coach her?


I am not my sister's keeper.  Who spots it, got it or words to that effect.  Quite frankly, I fail to see what you call my rudeness.  Maybe you need to contribute on the thread about "tolerance" ... I certainly haven't seen much here.


-------------
It is so rank it rankles. jimdi


Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 9:28pm
No doubt, even from admin...I, for one am very shocked at what was said about Jimdi.   I'd hardly call someone that has been active on this forum for 5 yrs, a troll.
 
I don't think I'd be too quick to say there are no vices, eg strip clubs under islamic law.  BTW, strip clubs aren't the only vice out there related to...dare I say it?  Porn.  I happened to stumble across plenty of arabic porn sites on a simple search for something COMPLETELY unrelated.   So, based on that, I'd venture to say there are plenty of places that seem innocent enough on the outside, but in reality cater to the sick fantasies of men, in general.   As a matter of fact, when searching dance videos (because anyone here that knows me, knows that I study ME dance), I actually found a video of a ME dancer at a ME wedding...she stripped off her costume.  That is disgusting to me on 2 levels, at least.  1st because this took place in a country that claims the principles of islam and 2nd because it gives legitimate students/dancers a bad rep.  Kinda like nurses reps over there, too.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 9:32pm
You will not find an islamic organization that supprot porn or strip show.


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 9:41pm
Here is my thought regarding culture and religion
 
Cultures not always bad, and religion not always go against Cultures, so you can say that cultures in generally are good except when it goes against religion rules (in Islam we call this rules sharia).As human being you are responsible for your decisions
 
This is why i believe that new Muslims are more likely to live true Islam better than born Muslims
 
 


-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

jimdi is a long standing TROLL on this forum. Just ignore him and whatever he says.

 
I haven't been here that long, but I read many of the threads. I have seen no evidence that jimdi is a troll or that what he says is unresearched or unfelt as part of his religion.


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 10:19pm
Definition of a troll:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

The name of this forum is Why Islam. There are a number of posters who have been for many years, including - but not limited - to jimdi3, who seek to do nothing more than discourage users from finding anything positive about Islam. To that extent, such people - according to the definition above - are clearly trolls. And trolling is the antithesis of tolerance and good manners. You don't find me going onto Christian forums and taking every opportunity to write something negative about Christianity, unlike the trolls we have on this forum.

This thread is about muslim women and dignity. Islamic Law gives women a huge amount of dignity by totally forbidding men from using women as sex workers in any form whatsoever. If we look at 'civilized' countries like the USA and the UK, men have carte blanche to use - and abuse women - in almost any form imaginable. Please read the link I put up to see examples of this. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that in this case, Islamic Law shows far, far greater dignity to women.



-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 10:34pm
men have carte blanche to use - and abuse women - in almost any form imaginable.
 
That is an outrageous statement. If anyone's words should be ignored, I will nominate yours above.


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by hamayoun


The name of this forum is Why Islam. There are a number of posters who have been for many years, including - but not limited - to jimdi3, who seek to do nothing more than discourage users from finding anything positive about Islam. To that extent, such people - according to the definition above - are clearly trolls. And trolling is the antithesis of tolerance and good manners. You don't find me going onto Christian forums and taking every opportunity to write something negative about Christianity, unlike the trolls we have on this forum.


Asalaam Alaikum:

I don't want to throw this thread off topic but I would like to share a personal experience.

A few years back I joined a fairly large Christian forum so I could interact with and have a productive dialog with Christians on there.

After 3 days, I was locked out of my account and sent an email saying I was banned from the forum because I espoused views other than Christianity. All my posts were very respectful and I tried to share with people there what Islam is all about.

Keep in mind that was only one Christian forum. There are probably hundreds or thousands out there, so I can't speak for all of them.

That said, WhyIslam is VERY tolerant. It takes quite an effort to get kicked off this forum.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 10:56pm
Regarding women in the US:

I work part time in retail to bring in some extra cash. Every summer I shake my head at the 12-year old girls who wear practically nothing. I see teen girls and adult women who do the same thing. And I also see men gawking at them.

As a man, I understand the thoughts and temptations that go along with seeing that. It's human nature. And yes, men need to control their urges, so they too have to take responsibility.

Certainly women have the right to wear what they want in this country. Although many times some (not all) seem to cross the line.

Personally, I like the hijab. It's modest, pious and reflects a solid dedication to God. And I think women who dress more modestly in general are viewed more for what's on the inside, not what their body looks like.

Just my two cents.

Peace
Hamza



-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:07pm
Would you agree that you have  carte blanche to use and abuse these kids in any way imaginable? What about grown women?


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by Francophile

Would you agree that you have  carte blanche to use and abuse these kids in any way imaginable? What about grown women?


Are you asking me? If so, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking.

If not, then my apologies.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:32pm
I am referring to Hamayoun's remark earlier that in western countries men have 'carte blanche to use and abuse women in every way imaginable.'
 
Do you agree that that is correct?
 
I'm not implying you would do such a thing, but do you believe you are free to do so?


Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 23 August 2010 at 11:54pm
I wouldn't say carte blanche, but treatment of women in the U.S. needs a lot of improvement.  I was involved in a rape case where there were 4 victims of a period of MANY years and none knew each other.  The man was never even charged or arrested because it was "his word against hers."  Four women.  One man. 

Women are stalked here and the police can't do much.  Restraining orders can be obtained, but they are just pieces of paper between a woman and a violent man.  Some women have had to go into hiding and change their names as a result of domestic violence.  This is wrong when it's the man who is the perpetrator.  If he is so violent, why not put him in jail?

So the law here is pretty weak when it comes to protecting women if a man can rape 4 women and not even be charged.


-------------


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Francophile

I am referring to Hamayoun's remark earlier that in western countries men have 'carte blanche to use and abuse women in every way imaginable.'
 
Do you agree that that is correct?
 
I'm not implying you would do such a thing, but do you believe you are free to do so?


Thank you for your clarification.

I'm honestly not quite sure how to answer that because I'd hate to make a broad generalization about men in western countries. I can make a few points though:

1. I'm a guy, like I said in previous post, so I understand the temptation/urges/thoughts that guys get when we see women in skimpy clothing. I do believe this is just plain human nature at work.

2. On one hand, we men should be responsible for our own behavior. I won't make excuses for criminals. On the other hand, if women don't want to be seen as/treated like objects, then they should not walk around wearing clothes with the least amount of fabric.

3. The National Organization for Women (NOW) tracks sexual violence against women in the US:


According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006. That's more than 600 women every day. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref6 - 6 Other estimates, such as those generated by the FBI, are much lower because they rely on data from law enforcement agencies. A significant number of crimes are never even reported for reasons that include the victim's feeling that nothing can/will be done and the personal nature of the incident. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref7 - 7


And who tend to be the victims?


Young women, low-income women and some minorities are disproportionately victims of domestic violence and rape. Women ages 20-24 are at greatest risk of nonfatal domestic violence http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref8 - 8 , and women age 24 and under suffer from the highest rates of rape. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref9 - 9 The Justice Department estimates that one in five women will experience rape or attempted rape during their college years, and that less than five percent of these rapes will be reported. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref10 - 10 Income is also a factor: the poorer the household, the higher the rate of domestic violence -- with women in the lowest income category experiencing more than six times the rate of nonfatal intimate partner violence as compared to women in the highest income category. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref11 - 11 When we consider race, we see that African-American women face higher rates of domestic violence than white women, and American-Indian women are victimized at a rate more than double that of women of other races. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html#endref12 - 12


Source: http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

4. Let's face it, in the US, sex sells. Every day television, movies, magazines and such are filled with thin, beautiful looking women (hey, I'm being honest). It creates a "standard" that many women feel they need to live up to. I'd even go as far to say that sex and sexiness are very glorified in the US.

Sorry for not specifically answering your question with a definite "yes" or "no". I think the term 'carte blanche is giving me problems, as it basically means a free pass or a blank check.

I will make one final personal observation: I feel much more comfortable in the masjid wear the women are dressed very modestly than I ever did attending church when I was a Christian. In church, it was shocking to see the short skirts and tight clothes girls/women would wear. Yes, I found it distracting.

At the masjid, however, there are no such distractions. I can focus my energy on worshiping God.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: searching
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:34am
The other problem in the U.S. is that the thin, beautiful women we see in magazines is a body type that most women can't possibly achieve.  So we are supposed to buy all kinds of products to help us get closer to this ideal.  And the ideal is a photoshopped, airbrushed magazine photo.  These "perfect" women aren't even "perfect" enough.  They have to be computer enhanced to make them have more curves here, less curves there.  It's ridiculous that this is how we sell products.  

-------------


Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:59am
Originally posted by mai moslemah

You will not find an islamic organization that supprot porn or strip show.

Um, I didn't say anything about any islamic organization.

 



Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:16am
Originally posted by mai moslemah

Originally posted by Meriam

Peace brothers andd sisters,

what kind of place you have win and taste as woman now between the corners of the islamic verdicts?
 
Salam sister Meriem
( I am not a new Muslim by the way ) to answer your question
 
success, tranquility and trying to be helpful for other. I am raised in a religious Muslim family and there love, patience and sacrifice was a great power for me to success. i can admit that without my dady i would never be a doctor and with out the support i get i might not get high grades that qualify me to be a staff member in one of Egypt's universities.
 
Originally posted by Meriam

Is there any injustice?
 
 
Life is full of injustice, sometimes when other human being be unjust with you, it gives you more strength and experience in life, but injustice was never from Islam.
 
Originally posted by Meriam

Is there any difference between man and woman as Muslims , a difference which imply any ''supremacy''of one over the other?
 
 
 Of course there is difference.The concept of equality btw gender is not Islamic concept but the Islamic concept is equity ( both gender complete each other).Bother men and women have the same value but they have different rules in life and this is for their own good.and i personally believe that equality without equity is so unfair for women
 
let e give you an example:
 
Women get pregnant right?! why women should work with the same efficiency as men at the time of pregnancy, this would be so much load but because women are not like men there must be especial rules for pregnant and lactating women also women should be supported by Men (husbands or fathers) during these times or it wouldn't be fair
 
equality not always fair but equity is fair
 
 
You are right sister not because you said kind things about woman as muslim but because this is the juste and truthful situation of Female gender between the coins of islamic verdicts...She is so honored with much equity as you said with man..
The Qu'ran elkarim shows well this point by giving such  a full surat called An-Nissa ( Women) with 176 verses to speak about her rights as her duties...
Saidatouna Maryam is also a woman and she was honored by a full surat too, called by her name with 98 verses.
The mother also as a woman is so honored in islam and her obedience comes just after al shahadattan and her disrespect is a way to Hell in the afterlife...She is the key of paradise after the belief in Allah and all his Angels, prophets and Holybooks as sent by God without any interference of men.
How wonderful really is this mercy ..
How nice is this award from Allah to woman ..
How magnificient is the justice of islam on his right...
But where is who understands well this aspect and applicates it in a pragmatic manner..where? and we see all the nonsense done on the right of woman in such some places on the world and taken on the name of islam ...But islam is far away of all this injustice rather it is the means of good manners and virtues in communication with all mankind man or woman.
 
Thank you again sister, you seem to understand well my meaning from my question that my sister Grotham saw it already as non coherant and requires perhaps much English language knowledge to pose it in coherent way..
Thank you sister.
By the way, your first passage of reply seems to be the same thing that I want to say: yes, as you, I am proud to born muslim and I am proud to have a great generous  kind and tolerant family and all my life I give to my parents whithout their support I would never rise up between the ranks of science.
 
Salmouallaykom


Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:22am
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!
 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf..


Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:24am

But don`t you see?

that i am truely free?
 this piece of scarf on me;
i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....
why can`t i just be me???
"i am the one who is free!!!!

 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf that I hear from time to time.
God bless you.


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 9:31am
Originally posted by searching

The other problem in the U.S. is that the thin, beautiful women we see in magazines is a body type that most women can't possibly achieve.  So we are supposed to buy all kinds of products to help us get closer to this ideal.  And the ideal is a photoshopped, airbrushed magazine photo.  These "perfect" women aren't even "perfect" enough.  They have to be computer enhanced to make them have more curves here, less curves there.  It's ridiculous that this is how we sell products.  
 
It's ridiculous that any intelligent person beyond the teenage years is influenced by these advertisements at all. Their influence should end at the same time one loses interest in the latest boy band or teen idol.
 
I admit that some people never outgrow these influences, but then they never actually become women, except physically.


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 10:36am
I believe the problem start from childhood, toys today are different from before.Barbygirl is an example it make young girls from their childhood believe that this is the perfect shape of a woman.

-------------
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 11:47am
Salam

Let me explain my comment about men having 'carte blanche to use and abuse women in every way imaginable.' So in the USA and the UK, and many other countries, it is 100% legal for any man to open a strip club. Any such man is allowed to solicit for women to work there. At that point, the use and abuse has already started. When a woman is hired by a man to be used as a sex object for the purposes of making money, to me that is CLEAR abuse. Now once a woman enters that arena, there's few limits to how she can be used. Lap dancing is one very common thing that happens in these places. Do you know what lap dancing is? I found this definition from Wikipedia:

'During a lap dance, the dancer rubs against the customer's crotch while he or she (typically he) remains clothed, in an attempt to arouse or bring the recipient to climax'.

I don't know about you, but that's reaching the limit of my imagaination. If it gets worse than that, I don't want to know.

So we can say that it is totally legal (which is what I mean by carte blanche) in some countries to LITERALLY strip women of every single last shroud of their dignity. Since this thread is about dignity, I find it it ironic that while women are being undignified in the own back yard of some posters, those posters have no difficulty in trying to slur Islam by claiming that Islam shows no dignity to women. What is the Islamic position on this? One of the beauties of Islam is the way that the Quran, and the Prophet Mohammed (SAW), teaches muslims to purify their hearts, and thus not fall into bad things. There's a beautiful story of a man who wanted to commit fornication because he could not control himself, and asked the Prophet(SAW) for permission to do so. The Prophet dealt with him with reasoning and asked him if he would approve of someone else having illegal sex with his mother, sister, daughter, or wife. Each time the man said 'no'. Then the Prophet replied that the woman with whom you plan to have sex is also somebody's mother, sister, daughter, or wife. The man understood and repented. The Prophet prayed for his forgiveness.

In this way, muslim men are taught about the dignity of women by being told that even if a woman appears undignifed, a man should not want to 'do' anything with her, NOT EVEN LOOK AT HER with desire. And if a man feels inclined to this, that man should remember that the woman is someone's mother/wife/daughter/sister, and to think of how it would be if it was his own mother/wife/daughter/sister. Just look at the amazing dignity Islam gives to women, and compare it with what is legal in certain non muslim countries! Makes me wonder why we are even having this discussion.

I want to finish by giving my own example. Upto the age of 21, I was not a very committed muslim. I was at college, and in the whole of the college there was only one girl who wore hijab. And whenever I saw her, I used to think 'how dare she do that? I want to look at her! It is my right to look at her, and see as much as I can, why is she stopping me from doing that?' Then when I became committed, I started trying to avoid looking at women, hijab or not - because Islam taught me about the dignity of a woman. Women do not simply exist to be oggled at and rated by men - and it took Islam to teach me that.

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:02pm

Women do not simply exist to be oggled at and rated by men - and it took Islam to teach me that.

What a shame you weren't taught that by your parents or teachers. Perhaps in time even without Islam,  you might have learned to see college women as individuals rather than as sex objects.



Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:11pm
My parents did try and teach me that, my teachers only taught me school subjects. However, growing up in the UK, the media gave me the impression that women were basically sex objects. A simple example of this which you don't see in the USA. We have tabloid newspapers in the UK. In the 70s, some of these newspapers started publishing daily, color, almost full page photos of topless models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_3_girls). There is no doubt that media and society influence how men regard women.

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May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Francophile

What a shame you weren't taught that by your parents or teachers. Perhaps in time even without Islam,  you might have learned to see college women as individuals rather than as sex objects.



That's the whole point - women are individuals, not sex objects. But when they wear practically no clothing to school or around town, it's really hard to get past their physical appearance.

And when tv, magazines and other media show women as sex objects, it really does have an effect on society as a whole. I've known a lot of smart, well-educated women who will put their health at risk to try and look like what our society expects.


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The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

My parents did try and teach me that, my teachers only taught me school subjects. However, growing up in the UK, the media gave me the impression that women were basically sex objects. A simple example of this which you don't see in the USA. We have tabloid newspapers in the UK. In the 70s, some of these newspapers started publishing daily, color, almost full page photos of topless models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_3_girls). There is no doubt that media and society influence how men regard women.
 
As a woman, I will suggest that there is no doubt that covering women up also influences how men regard women. The imagination is very powerful.


Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:01pm
Blah, blah...Bottom line it is up to an individual to control themelves.  Look or don 't look?  Your choice, no one else's.  And we all know that hijab does NOT stop men from looking, ogling, staring, whatever.  We all also know that there are plenty of stories from all over the world, including muslim majority countries where women have been attacked hijab or no, burqa or no, niqab or no, just because they were out in public without a male escort.  Point being that women everywhere are susceptible to stupid, twisted men irregardless of media.
 
As far as the example of a man opening a club and hiring strippers?  Those women make their own choices.  They don't have to choose to strip, just like many have chosen not to go to school for better opportunity to make wiser choices.  They're in it for the fast cash.  They figure it's easy enough work for the amount of money a lot of them bring home.   The women that choose to be strippers are using the men as much as the men are using them.


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:03pm
Thanks for the clarification, Hamayoun. I agree with you. Nothing good comes from strip clubs. The girls who work there are treated like objects. No man goes to a strip club to have an intellectually stimulating conversation with one of the dancers.

When I was young and in the military, I did my share of things I'm not proud of (although cheating on my fiancee, now my wife, was NEVER one of them). So I've seen both sides of this issue. Trust me, after a while women really do become objects.

Modesty is best. Girls and women should let their personalities and intellect shine, not their bodies.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: mai moslemah
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

No man goes to a strip club to have an intellectually stimulating conversation with one of the dancers.

A non Muslim man who live in sweden once told me that when he goes to nude club and.... ( whatever they do there ) he has all respect for women who are there and they are just having fun together as human being.
 
This was in a conversation that no need for hijab as men can control their desire very well, and whenever he sees a women which is not dressed properly he look at her the same way he look at beautiful picture.Btw isn't a beautiful picture consider to be an object


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But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!



Posted By: Cyra
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Meriam

But don`t you see?

that i am truely free?
 this piece of scarf on me;
i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....
why can`t i just be me???
"i am the one who is free!!!!

 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf that I hear from time to time.
God bless you.
 
Spare me.  I'm soooo tired of seeing this quoted.  A scarf doesn't preserve your dignity, integrity or  modesty.  It's a piece of cloth, inanimate object.  It's up to the woman to preserve her dignity, integrity and modesty.  Wear it if you want,  be who you want to be, but don't tell me that if I choose not to wear hijab that I have no dignity or integrity.  My moral standards are hella higher than many muslim women I meet.  At least I don't isolate the new person by not speaking to them, by not including them.  And I am far from immodest, btw.


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Cyra

Blah, blah...Bottom line it is up to an individual to control themelves.  Look or don 't look?  Your choice, no one else's.  And we all know that hijab does NOT stop men from looking, ogling, staring, whatever.  We all also know that there are plenty of stories from all over the world, including muslim majority countries where women have been attacked hijab or no, burqa or no, niqab or no, just because they were out in public without a male escort.  Point being that women everywhere are susceptible to stupid, twisted men irregardless of media.


I really wish it was that easy - just not to look. But it's not.  And I have plenty of male friends to back me up on that.

I will never make excuses for any man who rapes, beats or abuses a women. That is a man who has no control over himself and needs some serious help.
 

As far as the example of a man opening a club and hiring strippers?  Those women make their own choices.  They don't have to choose to strip, just like many have chosen not to go to school for better opportunity to make wiser choices.  They're in it for the fast cash.  They figure it's easy enough work for the amount of money a lot of them bring home.   The women that choose to be strippers are using the men as much as the men are using them.


While all your reasons for women becoming strippers are probably true, I think the underlying reason is very low self-esteem. Getting all that attention from men is an ego booster.

Men are the same way. Those who sleep around with multiple partners also have low self-esteem and need to be validated by women.

I


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah


A non Muslim man who live in sweden once told me that when he goes to nude club and.... ( whatever they do there ) he has all respect for women who are there and they are just having fun together as human being.


He's lying. Plain and simple.




-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: hamayoun
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:20pm
"As far as the example of a man opening a club and hiring strippers? Those women make their own choices. They don't have to choose to strip, just like many have chosen not to go to school for better opportunity to make wiser choices. They're in it for the fast cash. They figure it's easy enough work for the amount of money a lot of them bring home.   The women that choose to be strippers are using the men as much as the men are using them."
Read that website (http://www.savedfromstripclubs.org/factsaboutexoticdancing.htm) to see the fall out of what happens to women who enter this industry. They are being used and abused, and don't know it.

This thread is about Islam and the dignity of women. Regardless of why women do this, the fact is that it is 100% legal for this to happen in western countries, whereas Islam gives huge dignity to women by totally forbidding anything even approaching strip clubs.

-------------
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:48pm
I fail to see how this gives dignity to women, just as I fail to see how the Saudis forbidding them to drive  cars gives them dignity. If a woman's dignity is dependent upon some law passed by men, one can only wonder how dignified the men would make them, given free rein.
 
Constantly viewing women as potential victims of evil men doesn't say much for the men. Perhaps you're going about this backwards.


Posted By: freedom-lover
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 1:50pm

Hi readers

 

Thanks for your contributions on the moral issue. Our church has about 1000 members and I have not seen women in skimpy clothing. Perhaps this is because most of the congregation are immigrants from the third world. You may be right that in some liberal western churches there are some women in such clothing. In fact this is a concern to genuine Christians. Worldly values such as materialism and sexism have started smearing into the churches and mixing with our values. Of course we must always guard against them. But another extreme is Niqab and Burqa type clothing which I am also against. I have no objection to Hijab. Although we live in the world, we do not need to be worldly, in particular, among believers.

“so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe” (Philippians 2:15)

 



Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Francophile

I fail to see how this gives dignity to women, just as I fail to see how the Saudis forbidding them to drive  cars gives them dignity. If a woman's dignity is dependent upon some law passed by men, one can only wonder how dignified the men would make them, given free rein.
 
Constantly viewing women as potential victims of evil men doesn't say much for the men. Perhaps you're going about this backwards.


This is a problem of society as a whole.

I agree with you about Saudi Arabia - there is no dignity in forbidding women to even drive cars. Saudi women are smart and should be able to make their own decisions and let their intellect/personalities shine. Change is coming, but at a snail's pace.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Meriam
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Cyra

Originally posted by Meriam

But don`t you see?

that i am truely free?
 this piece of scarf on me;
i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....
why can`t i just be me???
"i am the one who is free!!!!

 Yes, this is the way to keep woman's Dignity, Integrity and Modesty..
Thank you sister ..I like so much this part of the song ''Free'' of Sami yusuf that I hear from time to time.
God bless you.
 
Spare me.  I'm soooo tired of seeing this quoted.  A scarf doesn't preserve your dignity, integrity or  modesty.  It's a piece of cloth, inanimate object.  It's up to the woman to preserve her dignity, integrity and modesty.  Wear it if you want,  be who you want to be, but don't tell me that if I choose not to wear hijab that I have no dignity or integrity.  My moral standards are hella higher than many muslim women I meet.  At least I don't isolate the new person by not speaking to them, by not including them.  And I am far from immodest, btw.
Thank you cyra for your interest to comment this part of passage.
Sorry if you did not get well the meaning that I mean here by saying that that scarf is a way to dignity and Integrity....
What I mean exceeds what you understood , exceeds the simple sign that it could be seen as a piece of cloth hidden the woman's hair...
What I mean exceeds more what you say here Cyra.
The Hijjab is not a sign of Dignity any more to who does not understand well the wisdom of its consideration as a verdict in islam..
Hijjab should be understood as a worship , as a means to avoid any temptation ..
If you don't wear Hijjab, it is not mean that you are not free and you are bad one, .....No cyra, even without Hijjab, you , she and they still be Human being honored by Dignity and Modesty if anyone knows well her limits and how she keeps her Dignity...
Cyra, with or not Scarf, you are worthy to be honored and respected...
And with Hijjab as it is well understood in its morals, one of us would be more and more closer to applicate the verdicts of her creed...
Unfortunatelly, there are some who wear it without any respect of it and give then bad impression about Hijjab..
But God thanks, there are in the other side, who wears it and gives it its value as well as we feel proud to be honored woman in islam.
 
To wear Scarf as a worship with what contains as magnificient morals of Dignity's keeping, is so different than to wear it just as a cloth or as a custom...
 
Cyra, I live in a modern community ,  I did not wear Hijjab one time, and I did never felt the inconvenience that you showed above , I did not feel that I am seen as bad one but I always Kept my Dignity and my modesty refering to my islamic morals and my family education...
Also, many of my best friends don't wear Hijjab and they are so good as persons to communicate with and I have really the honor to be my friends...
The problematic or the miscellaneous here is How to understand the verdict of Scarf in islam religion as a great gift to have the awards by obeying Allah who only knows well our benefit ....
 
Sorry for any misunderstanding Cyra and thank you for like this opportunity to give me to clarify more the meaning and it would be an occasion for you sister to search more about this subject from reliable sources and not to give up our reflections on superficial understanding or unconfident source of inforrmations as we see all the misconceptions turning around Islam without any trying to do a step and see with wise eye the reality of the fact.
 
god bless you and all women in the world.
Salam


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:21pm
On the other hand, I don't see how women walking around in skimpy, revealing clothes or being a stripper gives them much dignity either.

-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."


Posted By: Francophile
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 2:32pm

I agree with you, but at least they made their own decisions about what to wear. There is some inherent dignity in that.



Posted By: Kadhim
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by The_Seeker

On the other hand, I don't see how women walking around in skimpy, revealing clothes or being a stripper gives them much dignity either.

Women as you describe may not be asking you to give them dignity because they have that already. I know several women at my gym who work out both for the health benefits and to feel good about their bodies and how they look. Is that vain? Maybe yes, maybe no. But building a positive self image and gaining health benefits is not something that is to be denigrated as lacking dignity. There is nothing at all undignified in their work ethic and attaining a personal goal. They would certainly define as judgmental and false any accusation that they feel undignified about their appearance and the effort they put into achieving it. If they choose to wear clothing that accentuates or reveals the results of physical training, I’m fine with that. I’ll give you the address of my gym and if you like, you can approach these women and explain to them how undignified they are. I wouldn’t do that because I don’t feel a need to be so judgmental and presume to tell them how to dress or conduct their lives.    


Posted By: The_Seeker
Date Posted: 24 August 2010 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Kadhim


Women as you describe may not be asking you to give them dignity because they have that already. I know several women at my gym who work out both for the health benefits and to feel good about their bodies and how they look. Is that vain? Maybe yes, maybe no. But building a positive self image and gaining health benefits is not something that is to be denigrated as lacking dignity. There is nothing at all undignified in their work ethic and attaining a personal goal. They would certainly define as judgmental and false any accusation that they feel undignified about their appearance and the effort they put into achieving it. If they choose to wear clothing that accentuates or reveals the results of physical training, I’m fine with that. I’ll give you the address of my gym and if you like, you can approach these women and explain to them how undignified they are. I wouldn’t do that because I don’t feel a need to be so judgmental and presume to tell them how to dress or conduct their lives.    


Yes, us Islamists think gyms should be banned for everyone too.


-------------
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The strong person is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry."



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