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The relationship between the Bible and the Qur'an

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
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URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29672
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Topic: The relationship between the Bible and the Qur'an
Posted By: waheed1
Subject: The relationship between the Bible and the Qur'an
Date Posted: 08 January 2013 at 4:45pm
old video.

http://noorulislam.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-10-02T14_05_11-07_00 - http://noorulislam.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-10-02T14_05_11-07_00


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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

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Replies:
Posted By: sereihan
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 6:50am

One of the things Quran came for is to confirm the previous scriptures, notice previous scriptures refers to the original divine revelations but if we refer to the bible as the previous scripture we have to rephrase the statement and say "the truth in previous scriptures"



Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 11 January 2013 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by sereihan

One of the things Quran came for is to confirm the previous scriptures, notice previous scriptures refers to the original divine revelations but if we refer to the bible as the previous scripture we have to rephrase the statement and say "the truth in previous scriptures"

"The truth in previous scriptures?" The truth in Scripture is way to general and subjective of a statement for the Muslim. It gives too much lead way. You will have to be way more specific than that.
 
Other than certain negligible interpolations and translation errors we know about, how does it comfirm what came before? All versions of Scripture that came before state that Jesus is the "son of God." In fact, all state that God said of Jesus: "This is my beloved son..." The Quran contradicts this; therefore, it fails to confirm the Scriptures that came before; hence, you are stuck with another discrepancy.
 
The Quran also shows it didn't understand concepts about Biblical Christianity. It only understood some of Catholicism, but even that they got wrong. Why didn't Allah and Muhammad understand our Bible; more importantly why didn't it confirm it like it was supposed to?


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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:54pm
Actually the entire video answers your basic questions, the alleged mistake in Trinity, confirmation of Bible, etcetera.

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by waheed1

Actually the entire video answers your basic questions, the alleged mistake in Trinity, confirmation of Bible, etcetera.
The video is not very clear or loud enough and there is static in the background. Why don't you share what part answers my concerns? 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 6:02pm
Evidence too boring for you? LOL

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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Magister

Evidence too boring for you? LOL
What evidence? Please state it in your own words what you feel the evidence is from the video. Don't depend on a video to do the work for you.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Burninglight

Originally posted by waheed1

Actually the entire video answers your basic questions, the alleged mistake in Trinity, confirmation of Bible, etcetera.
The video is not very clear or loud enough and there is static in the background. Why don't you share what part answers my concerns? 


parts of the video that focus on some of the issues mentioned above.

9:40 Quran and other texts.

14.. Qur'an and Bible have similar teaching.

15:41, historicity of the Bible?

23:19, Where Qur''an contradicts the Bible.

24:47-26:24, mistakes in the Qur'an [Quranic description of Trinity, Mary worship] ?

27:33, sharing the thoughts of academics.

I hope this will help you to see a Muslim perspective on this issue.

Largely, this video was addressing some confusion Muslims have, in that some of them trying to follow both.

also see 31:50, Quran jumping from subject to subject.

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by waheed1

Originally posted by Burninglight

Originally posted by waheed1

Actually the entire video answers your basic questions, the alleged mistake in Trinity, confirmation of Bible, etcetera.
The video is not very clear or loud enough and there is static in the background. Why don't you share what part answers my concerns? 


parts of the video that focus on some of the issues mentioned above.

9:40 Quran and other texts.

14.. Qur'an and Bible have similar teaching.

15:41, historicity of the Bible?

23:19, Where Qur''an contradicts the Bible.

24:47-26:24, mistakes in the Qur'an [Quranic description of Trinity, Mary worship] ?

27:33, sharing the thoughts of academics.

I hope this will help you to see a Muslim perspective on this issue.

Largely, this video was addressing some confusion Muslims have, in that some of them trying to follow both.

also see 31:50, Quran jumping from subject to subject.
What does it say about the mistakes in the Quran about the concept of the Biblical tri unity of God?

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 1:52pm
It's mentioned above, start at minute 24

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by waheed1

It's mentioned above, start at minute 24
Sorry I don't know what you mean by minute 24 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 10:58pm
The relationship between the Quran and the Bible:
 
 
You guys repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted with "grave defects" and that the Qu'ran is the only trustworthy scripture in existence.  What are these "Grave defects?" The Bible corrupted? This cannot be. According to the Quran,  the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by Allah Islam's god. Do you believe in your own Scriptures or not?
 
Look carefully again:
  • Torah - "We gave Mose the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87). http://carm.org/religious-movements/islam/quran-says-bible-not-corrupt#footnote1_98s762s - 1
  • Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
  • Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
    Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

Muhammad never said the Bible was corrupted. He cricticized people never the text.

We see that the Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by Allah. With this I agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu'ran since the Qu'ran says that the Word of Allah/God cannot be altered:

  • "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
  • "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
  • "For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

When Muhammed walked the earth, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Gabriel. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted, because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. Remember my words here Man's power to corrupt is not greater than God's power to preserve.

The question I have for (you) Muslims is "When, why where and how was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?"


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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 12:19am
Originally posted by Burninglight

[QUOTE=waheed1]It's mentioned above, start at minute 24
Sorry I don't know what you mean by minute 24 [/QUOTilE]

I mean the part of the video addressing the Qur'an description of Trinity, go to minute 24 on video.

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by waheed1

Originally posted by Burninglight

[QUOTE=waheed1]It's mentioned above, start at minute 24
Sorry I don't know what you mean by minute 24 [/QUOTilE]

I mean the part of the video addressing the Qur'an description of Trinity, go to minute 24 on video.
Sorry, I still don't understand; where are the minutes displayed??? Can you just post the link for me?

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 1:13pm
The link is already there. Just fast forward to the minutes indicated.

-------------
http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by waheed1

The link is already there. Just fast forward to the minutes indicated.
 Okay, I understand finally duh 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:26pm

Waheed:

 

It is actually at minute 25, and he addresses what I said about the Quran getting the trinity wrong. He said it is a question of the way you interpret it and should look at it in context and other parts of the Quran explain what is not clear. Yes,  I interpret the Quran but so do Muslims. There are parts that have to be interpreted.

 

This guy said that Christians prayed to Mary and the Quran is right. First of all, Biblical Christians never prayed to Mary or saints. Allah and Muhammad's world view of Christianity was Catholicism plain and simple. Catholics pray to Mary. That is not Biblical or Scriptural period.

 

Moreover, even the Catholics never considered Mary to be god. Allah asks Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" Not even the Catholics took Mary for God; therefore, the only logical inference that can be made with this discrepancy is that Allah and Muhammad didn't know the true Christian concept of the trinity and gave a distorted version of what Christians are and were not doing.

 

What I find particularly strange is that Allah would not give that Scripture as instruction for Muslim believers but as a response to Catholics of something that they nor Biblical Christians did. Why can't you see this? Is it because you are brainwashed like the guy on the video who says no matter what the Quran is right and must be used to judge who is right or wrong.

 

Well, we Christians use the Bible the same way minus the few negligible interpolations. The Quran challenges me to find a discrepancy. I believe I have found one that is not negligible for an all knowing god of Islam. This is not excusable. I may not be able to convince a Muslim of this, but it is enough for me to be convinced.

 



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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 27 January 2013 at 2:41pm
First of all, Biblical Christians never prayed to Mary or saints. Allah and Muhammad's world view of Christianity was Catholicism plain and simple. Catholics pray to Mary. That is not Biblical or Scriptural period.


It was not claimed that invoking Mary was Biblical, nonetheless it was a practice, one which the Qur'an is critical of.

Indeed, even from a Biblical perspective, even the worship of Jesus is UnBiblical. Qur'an is against both!

Moreover, even the Catholics never considered Mary to be god. Allah asks Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" Not even the Catholics took Mary for God; therefore, the only logical inference that can be made with this discrepancy is that Allah and Muhammad didn't know the true Christian concept of the trinity and gave a distorted version of what Christians are and were not doing.


What people say and what reality is are often two different things. Someone who likes to commit murder may dislike being called a murderer, but his actions demonstrate that a spade be called a spade.

What I find particularly strange is that Allah would not give that Scripture as instruction for Muslim believers but as a response to Catholics of something that they nor Biblical Christians did. Why can't you see this? Is it because you are brainwashed like the guy on the video who says no matter what the Quran is right and must be used to judge who is right or wrong.


The whole of the video makes Biblical references as well as references to academia. Perhaps you should evaluate the whole teaching before declaring people to be brainwashed.

Well, we Christians use the Bible the same way minus the few negligible interpolations. The Quran challenges me to find a discrepancy. I believe I have found one that is not negligible for an all knowing god of Islam. This is not excusable. I may not be able to convince a Muslim of this, but it is enough for me to be convinced.


IMO, your effort is just clasping at straws! The Qur'an is a scripture that explains itself quite well. To be honest, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm only trying to get you to see what and why we say and believe as we do, because it seems you have much emotion and misconceptions when it comes to the faith of over a billion people. This is why I keep telling you, and others also tell you, to read the sources for yourself. Go get a Qur'an, and not limit yourself to internet interactions with nameless faceless people.

-------------
http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 27 January 2013 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by waheed1

First of all, Biblical Christians never prayed to Mary or saints. Allah and Muhammad's world view of Christianity was Catholicism plain and simple. Catholics pray to Mary. That is not Biblical or Scriptural period.


It was not claimed that invoking Mary was Biblical, nonetheless it was a practice, one which the Qur'an is critical of.

Indeed, even from a Biblical perspective, even the worship of Jesus is UnBiblical. Qur'an is against both! Invocating Mary is unScriptural in the Bible as well, but that cannot be said of Jesus. The angels were commanded to worship Jesus and Jesus never stopped those who worshipped Him. Nice try though.

Moreover, even the Catholics never considered Mary to be god. Allah asks Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" Not even the Catholics took Mary for God; therefore, the only logical inference that can be made with this discrepancy is that Allah and Muhammad didn't know the true Christian concept of the trinity and gave a distorted version of what Christians are and were not doing.


What people say and what reality is are often two different things. Someone who likes to commit murder may dislike being called a murderer, but his actions demonstrate that a spade be called a spade. This is true, but not in the case of Mary, I am an authority on it, because I was born and raise Catholic and at no time did Catholics believe Mary to be God and they prayed to her like they would to any other saint and even more so because they take her to be the mother of God which is ridiculous I know. But This does not clear the Quran, Allah and Muhammad of the misconception they had on the Biblical tri unity of God, They didn't know that Mary was never a part of the three Allah said to not say and that the Holy Spirit was and is God to the Christian (Always has been and always will be). Anyone with a 4 grade education can make that inference from reading directly from the Quran.

What I find particularly strange is that Allah would not give that Scripture as instruction for Muslim believers but as a response to Catholics of something that they nor Biblical Christians did. Why can't you see this? Is it because you are brainwashed like the guy on the video who says no matter what the Quran is right and must be used to judge who is right or wrong.


The whole of the video makes Biblical references as well as references to academia. Perhaps you should evaluate the whole teaching before declaring people to be brainwashed. I didn't declare anyone member on this forum brainwashed. I asked. You can say I am brainwashed. You would be right. My brain needed a good washing of the water of His word. His word being Jesus of course.
Well, we Christians use the Bible the same way minus the few negligible interpolations. The Quran challenges me to find a discrepancy. I believe I have found one that is not negligible for an all knowing god of Islam. This is not excusable. I may not be able to convince a Muslim of this, but it is enough for me to be convinced.


IMO, your effort is just clasping at straws! The Qur'an is a scripture that explains itself quite well. To be honest, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm only trying to get you to see what and why we say and believe as we do, because it seems you have much emotion and misconceptions when it comes to the faith of over a billion people. This is why I keep telling you, and others also tell you, to read the sources for yourself. Go get a Qur'an, and not limit yourself to internet interactions with nameless faceless people.
"Clasping a straws?" You mean Grasping at straws! I don't believe that is true Waheed. You might like to believe that, but most of my posts have been going unchallenged. The fact that there is over a billion sincere people following Islam doesn't mean they can't be sincerely wrong.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 1:03pm
People aren't "challenging "your posts? All over the forum your assertions are being addressed!

Come on now ....



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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: CINDY
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:00pm
burninglight, hear me.....free in  deed, 

I must work the work of him who sent me and ...finish it....
there have been people all through the coarse of history who have been captive in bondage in all faiths, it is and will always be, the oppressor that is the problem to any that are oppressed, until it all in all.   we must care and look at the work of each person not group to truly know the root and what indwells, my BROTHER


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I AM PRAYING


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by waheed1

People aren't "challenging "your posts? All over the forum your assertions are being addressed!

Come on now ....

yes, but when I respond, I don't hear anything but silence for a long period of time. I like to get responses, but the responses I get haven't been able to gainsay my posts. IOW, I don't feel challenged, and I am hardly grasping at straws here. Let's call a spade a spade. Many Muslims don't seem to like doing that. The truth will set you free! 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 1:04am
ego boy ego


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 1:55am
Originally posted by iec786

ego boy ego
okay, point taken 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 12:14pm
"This guy said that Christians prayed to Mary and the Quran is right. First of all, Biblical Christians never prayed to Mary or saints. Allah and Muhammad's world view of Christianity was Catholicism plain and simple. Catholics pray to Mary. That is not Biblical or Scriptural period."
--Burninglight
BL, the problem is, your idea of biblical christianity did not exist until much later. Protestants did not roam the earth in the days of Muhammad (saws) -- the CATHOLICS did. When you referred to a Christian, you were more or less referring to a Catholic. There were other sects, but the Catholic church held it down around the world for a pretty long time. They worshiped Mary. God was not referring to some European invention that came about a thousand years later, He was referring to the people there and then. They prayed to Mary and to Jesus, and God forbade them from doing that. They were Catholics, that's why. There were no groups of Protestants running around Arabia that long ago, so it wouldn't be addressing the Protestants. Further, if there were minority sects that resembled Protestantism to some extent, how common do you think they were? Common enough that when someone used the word "Christian" they had to differentiate between the Catholic brand of Christian or the non-Catholic brand? Not at all. Catholicism and other apostolistic churches were basically the ONLY forms of Christianity people would come across in those days (besides mystical groups that seemed more secretive than anything).
The whole idea of Protestantism and "biblical" Christianity is a modern invention more or less. For the ancients, traditions, authority figures, etc. were important just as scripture was.
 
"Not even the Catholics took Mary for God; therefore, the only logical inference that can be made with this discrepancy is that Allah and Muhammad didn't know the true Christian concept of the trinity and gave a distorted version of what Christians are and were not doing."
 
--Burninglight
 
It is more metaphorical. You can take your lusts for gods, money for gods, etc. You should understand this from a NT perspective where you can only serve one Master...it's metaphorical but implies that your behaviors put you in a position of worship or servitude to an idea/concept/etc. In our view, if you pray to anyone, you're worshiping that person based on your actions. This is why things like divination and spiritualism are considered shirk in Islam.
 
 


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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: ishammad7
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 1:55pm


On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (glorified and exalted be He) said: I am so self-sufficient that I am in no need of having an associate. Thus he who does an action for someone else's sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me.
It was related by Muslim (also by Ibn Majah).

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Almighty Allah says, 'I am the One Who is most free from want of partners. He who does a thing for the sake of someone else beside Me, I discard him and his polytheism.."


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 7:44pm
SO IF THE Quran didn't say what it meant then it needs you to interpret it. It is not understood on its own. So, if the Quran didn't mean what it said, why doesn't it say what it means without you given the interpretation?

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 12:47pm
The Qur'an is very clear with regards to God concept and what is not accurate. Worship, invoke, call upon, God alone. Not Mary, Jesus, or anyone else.

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by waheed1

The Qur'an is very clear with regards to God concept and what is not accurate. Worship, invoke, call upon, God alone. Not Mary, Jesus, or anyone else.
Yes, it is very clear in the Bible that we shouldn't invoke saints or Mary and to call on God alone. Jesus, however, is a completely different story. The Word of God is His story - HISTORY, PRESENT and Future. Those that call on the name of Jesus will be saved! He is God's word. You don't have to be a spiritual guru to know that God's word is eternal and uncreated! Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. Human souls shouldn't make the mistake that Satan did in pride and rebellion when he wouldn't bow to the first Adam. Jesus is the last Adam, and if we want to be one who truly submits to God (Muslim) we will bow to the last Adam! I do with all my heart, mind and soul!!!! 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 12:43am
Those that call on the name of Jesus will be saved!

How he could not save himself on the cross or in the Garden of Gethsemane he told his disciples to watch while he prayed like a Muslim would pray.

JESUS (PBUH) SPOKE IN PARABLES TO DECEIVE THE
UNINITIATED:
". . . all these things are done in parables. That seeing they
may see, and NOT perceive; and hearing they may hear, and
NOT understand; LEST at any time they should be converted,
and their sins should be forgiven." MARK 4:11-12


PETER CONDTRADICTS JESUS (PBUH) REGARDING HIMSELF AS
"THE ONLY WAY:"
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. no
man cometh unto the father, but by me." JOHN 14:6
Contradicted by:
"Then Peter opened his mouth . . . But IN EVERY NATION
he that feareth him (God), and worketh righteousness, IS
ACCEPTED with him (God)." ACTS 10:34-35


"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying,
GO NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the
Samaritans ENTER YE NOT.
"But go ye rather unto the lost sheep of THE HOUSE OF
ISRAEL (to the Jews only)." MATTHEW 10:5-6

"But he (Jesus) answered and said I am NOT SENT but unto
the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL (the Jews only).
"Then came she (the Canaanite woman) and worshipped him,
saying Lord, help me (to cure my daughter).
"But he answered and said, it is not meet to take the children's
bread and CAST IT TO DOGS (the non-Jews)." MATTHEW 15:24-26 You and me dogs

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 3:12am
Originally posted by iec786

Those that call on the name of Jesus will be saved!

How he could not save himself on the cross or in the Garden of Gethsemane he told his disciples to watch while he prayed like a Muslim would pray.

JESUS (PBUH) SPOKE IN PARABLES TO DECEIVE THE
UNINITIATED:
". . . all these things are done in parables. That seeing they
may see, and NOT perceive; and hearing they may hear, and
NOT understand; LEST at any time they should be converted,
and their sins should be forgiven." MARK 4:11-12


PETER CONDTRADICTS JESUS (PBUH) REGARDING HIMSELF AS
"THE ONLY WAY:"
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. no
man cometh unto the father, but by me." JOHN 14:6
Contradicted by:
"Then Peter opened his mouth . . . But IN EVERY NATION
he that feareth him (God), and worketh righteousness, IS
ACCEPTED with him (God)." ACTS 10:34-35


"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying,
GO NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the
Samaritans ENTER YE NOT.
"But go ye rather unto the lost sheep of THE HOUSE OF
ISRAEL (to the Jews only)." MATTHEW 10:5-6

"But he (Jesus) answered and said I am NOT SENT but unto
the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL (the Jews only).
"Then came she (the Canaanite woman) and worshipped him,
saying Lord, help me (to cure my daughter).
"But he answered and said, it is not meet to take the children's
bread and CAST IT TO DOGS (the non-Jews)." MATTHEW 15:24-26 You and me dogs
I explained that Jesus came unto His own, but they didn't receive Him, but as many as have received Him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God even to those that believe on His name. Jesus still dealt with outsiders. Moreover, His last mandate was to share and baptize all peoples in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 10 February 2013 at 8:43am
He did not here the word Christian nor did he give them anything."But he (Jesus) answered and said I am NOT SENT but unto
the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL (the Jews only).

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 12:12am
There is, IMO, absolutly no relationship between the Quran and the Bible

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 12:40am
Question:

Is there something mentioned in the Bible which resembles this Sacred Hadith (Hadith Qudsi)?

(Verily, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I was sick but you did not visit Me. He would say:

O my Lord; how could I visit Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds?

Thereupon He would say: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine was sick but you did not visit him and were you not aware of this that if you had visited him, you would have found Me by him?...)

(Sahih Muslim)





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http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 2:33am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Question:

Is there something mentioned in the Bible which resembles this Sacred Hadith (Hadith Qudsi)?

(Verily, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I was sick but you did not visit Me. He would say:

O my Lord; how could I visit Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds?

Thereupon He would say: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine was sick but you did not visit him and were you not aware of this that if you had visited him, you would have found Me by him?...)

(Sahih Muslim)



but the hadith is not the Quran

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Burninglight

There is, IMO, absolutly no relationship between the Quran and the Bible
 
The Quran (whether you want to believe in it or not) is built on the teachings of the Bible. You can't say there's no relationship because there is. There's no relationship between "Hebrews" and "Matthew" actually. See my point?


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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 11 February 2013 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Burninglight

There is, IMO, absolutly no relationship between the Quran and the Bible
 
The Quran (whether you want to believe in it or not) is built on the teachings of the Bible. You can't say there's no relationship because there is. There's no relationship between "Hebrews" and "Matthew" actually. See my point?
Then why do Muslims say the Bible is corrupted? IMO, the only thing that attempts to corrupt the Bible more than anything I know is how the Quran conflicts, contradicts and usurps it!

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: waheed1
Date Posted: 13 February 2013 at 9:30pm
We say that in essence, the teachers were all teaching from the same source, i.e. God Almighty. The difference between the Qur'an and the Bible/Christian faith is, basically, we say the Qur'an is sent from God, that the Qur'an contains [see 27:76] corrections of wrong ideas and misconceptions that have been put into the mouth of the teachers of the past. Moreover, as the video itself has some details, academic research has proven the Qur'an correct on this point.

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http://arifinimports.com - Lectures and books
http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com - My Blog

<a href="">


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 3:03am
Originally posted by waheed1

We say that in essence, the teachers were all teaching from the same source, i.e. God Almighty. The difference between the Qur'an and the Bible/Christian faith is, basically, we say the Qur'an is sent from God, that the Qur'an contains [see 27:76] corrections of wrong ideas and misconceptions that have been put into the mouth of the teachers of the past. Moreover, as the video itself has some details, academic research has proven the Qur'an correct on this point.

I never heard it put so nicely before that the Bible is corrupted but the Quran is not.

The message that Christians have received from the essence of the Bible is that all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through and only through Christ Jesus.
Know the son know the life of God; NO son No life from God only His wrath. If we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved for with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation Ro 10: 9 10.

All the Bibles say the same thing about this. What is important to know regarding our being able to go to paradise is not corrupted in any of the Bibles. The corruption comes from those that say the Bible is corrupted. That lie is leading multitudes into perdition



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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 2:00pm
Relationship between the Bible and Quran? That's easy. None.

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

Relationship between the Bible and Quran? That's easy. None.
That sums it up

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 1:02am
As the Bible stands today? too many interpolations and folk law.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 1:23am
^ LOL @ iec786...good point

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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 1:37am
Originally posted by iec786

As the Bible stands today? too many interpolations and folk law.
You are intitled to your opinion. I believe the same about the Quran.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 15 February 2013 at 7:22am
Good point? Sounded more like unsubstantiated opinion to me. And are you referring to linear or polynomial interpolation?

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 16 February 2013 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Squeegie

Good point? Sounded more like unsubstantiated opinion to me. And are you referring to linear or polynomial interpolation?
"Unsubstantiated?" True, but that goes without saying

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 6:34am
Jesus said

I have been with you so long are ye yet without understanding.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 4:29pm
Sqeegie, do you refuse to accept that there were additions made to your "Bible"?

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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 5:58pm
I refuse to accept what you imply any such additions amount to. Anywhere there is something that does not square with the earliest documents that finds its way into the text, such an item is footnoted with an explanation that the passage was not found in some early mss.. For example, mark 16:9-20 are footnoted to indicate that in some texts these verses are placed in brackets to indicate they did not appear in the codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus but that they did appear in other manuscripts of Mark. Even though there is some dispute, at least the dispute is acknowledged rather than totally denied as is the case with the quran. And nowhere do any of the disputed passages affect any major points of doctrine. So your point was...?

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 6:02pm

...that your text is vulnerable to corruption, and the fact that we DO NOT have any full manuscripts dating to the times of Jesus (as) or his immediate disciples makes the integrity of your text highly dubious. Unless you have some sort of proof that the integrity is unquestionable. If so, please don't hesitate to share. You'd be doing it for Christ :)



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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 6:09pm
I didn't think this thread was intended to be a discussion of textual reliability, but there is plenty of reasonable doubt with the quran since we're on the subject. But you'll not accept any of my evidence just as I'm not going to view your evidence as amounting to anything God can't deal with, so it's a wash...


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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

I didn't think this thread was intended to be a discussion of textual reliability, but there is plenty of reasonable doubt with the quran since we're on the subject. But you'll not accept any of my evidence just as I'm not going to view your evidence as amounting to anything God can't deal with, so it's a wash...
Squeegie, I am beginning to believe we are casting out pearls, I could be wrong, but we are wasting our time. They have heard the message and rejected it time and again. Jesus said to shake off the dust of your feet and move on to another city (Forum) or or wait till there is a turnover of members here. Besides, they would love to see me leave them to their own devices. Their minds are made up and they don't want to be bothered with the truth or facts.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 8:59pm
But leaving them to their own devices merely guarantees them an eternity in hell. In Mark 4:26-34 Jesus tells a story about the size of the seed relative to the size of the mature plant. A mustard seed is about the size of a grain of sand, but the mature plant can grow to be nine feet tall. If this is what the word of God is like in its potential, what does this tell us about the smallest thing we might be called to do in obedience to Christ, even if that small thing is speak a word defending deliberate caricaturizations of the faith?

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

But leaving them to their own devices merely guarantees them an eternity in hell. In Mark 4:26-34 Jesus tells a story about the size of the seed relative to the size of the mature plant. A mustard seed is about the size of a grain of sand, but the mature plant can grow to be nine feet tall. If this is what the word of God is like in its potential, what does this tell us about the smallest thing we might be called to do in obedience to Christ, even if that small thing is speak a word defending deliberate caricaturizations of the faith?
You have no idea how much I want to believe that, but I battle with whether this is my gut feeling or an unction of the Holy Spirit  that I might be wasting my time here.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 9:18pm
Moreover, leaving them to their own devices guarantees them hell you say, but so does us trying to convince those who don't want the truth. It keeps piling on condemnation, or our leaving them could get them to think more about their deception. IOW, what if we as Christians are hindering by arguing to where we only serve to get them to dig in their heels?

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 9:49pm
Perhaps it's time to just drastically reduce the amount of time spent here. I'm sure there are far more worthy pursuits on the internet or in the real world. Distractions take up so much of our time that could be put into service.

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

Perhaps it's time to just drastically reduce the amount of time spent here. I'm sure there are far more worthy pursuits on the internet or in the real world. Distractions take up so much of our time that could be put into service.
I think you have a really good point. I gave the best presentation I knew about the gospel. There are so many that haven't heard a fraction of what they have received here. It could be the devil distracting us from more fruitful fields by wasting our time.
 
Jesus has change my life. He has given me a security and sealed me with a promise of eternal life to where He bears witness with my spirit with the Holy Spirit that I am His. I cannot keep silent about this good news. Woe is me if I share not the good news and woe to them that reject it.
 
Jesus said those that receive us, receive Him, and those that receive Him receive the father. If they reject what you or me say, they reject Jesus and the father who sent Him, but they can never say we didn't try to reach them with the truth who is Jesus. PTL of you sister Peace be upon you and may God richly bless you


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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 18 February 2013 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

I didn't think this thread was intended to be a discussion of textual reliability, but there is plenty of reasonable doubt with the quran since we're on the subject. But you'll not accept any of my evidence just as I'm not going to view your evidence as amounting to anything God can't deal with, so it's a wash...
 
Show me the evidence and try me. Simple as that. But you can start off another thread if you'd like. If everyone is so concerned about our spiritual welfare, then why not show us some convincing evidence that what you have is trustworthy? And like Damo remembers me saying all too often -- pretend I'm NOT A MUSLIM. Just imagine I'm a skeptic sincerely interested in his eternal welfare.
 
I've thought I made my position clear a number of times on these forums: Show me the truth and I'll have no reason but to accept it. I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and scream so I don't hear the evidence...after all, I left my religion to start with in search of truth.
 
There's several fractures in the foundation you stand upon currently. One of the most dangerous of cracks is the fact that the scripture's reliability (even validity) is full of doubt. How can I be "saved" and turn to Christ if the very scripture that I must follow in order to be saved is unconvincing?
 
It's simple logic, really.


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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 1:13am
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Squeegie

I didn't think this thread was intended to be a discussion of textual reliability, but there is plenty of reasonable doubt with the quran since we're on the subject. But you'll not accept any of my evidence just as I'm not going to view your evidence as amounting to anything God can't deal with, so it's a wash...
 
Show me the evidence and try me. Simple as that. But you can start off another thread if you'd like. If everyone is so concerned about our spiritual welfare, then why not show us some convincing evidence that what you have is trustworthy? And like Damo remembers me saying all too often -- pretend I'm NOT A MUSLIM. Just imagine I'm a skeptic sincerely interested in his eternal welfare.
 
I've thought I made my position clear a number of times on these forums: Show me the truth and I'll have no reason but to accept it. I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and scream so I don't hear the evidence...after all, I left my religion to start with in search of truth.
 
There's several fractures in the foundation you stand upon currently. One of the most dangerous of cracks is the fact that the scripture's reliability (even validity) is full of doubt. How can I be "saved" and turn to Christ if the very scripture that I must follow in order to be saved is unconvincing?
 
It's simple logic, really.
It is more than simple logic. Squeegie is right; it is a wash. You have heard the most compelling appeals possible regarding Christianity. You say you are looking for evidence and left a religion in search of truth and your actions belie your words. You have joined with Islam without evidence and reject Christianity without evidence. It is a wash. We are getting nowhere fast. I cannot stand the waste of time. I pray you come to the knowledge of truth. Deep in my heart I believe that God has shown you the truth and you rejected for the god of logic and reason.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 6:07am

If my god is the god of logic and reason, does that make your god the deity of the lack of logic and the lack of reason? I'm surprised that you're condemning me for choosing logic and reason over blind faith -- and so openly!

 
But you say "You have heard the most compelling appeals possible regarding Christianity." Would you mind copying-pasting them here? Maybe I missed them.


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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 2:39am
Originally posted by Magister

If my god is the god of logic and reason, does that make your god the deity of the lack of logic and the lack of reason? I'm surprised that you're condemning me for choosing logic and reason over blind faith -- and so openly!

 
But you say "You have heard the most compelling appeals possible regarding Christianity." Would you mind copying-pasting them here? Maybe I missed them.
My friend, you tell me what is logical about God being all powerfull all knowing and being everywhere at the same time or simply saying "Be" and it is? Or what is logical about God always existing without beginning or end.
While you are at it, tell me why you are implying I have blind faith when you believe this yourself? If you cannot answer these questions. Then why should you be taken seriously? I have presented you with sound Scripture and reason that involves spiritual wisdom and discernment to preceive and yet you imply I have blind faith. The faith I have is not blind; in fact, it has an extra spiritual eye that makes my path better than a known way. Jesus is that way!


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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 21 February 2013 at 2:09am
Burning, your question makes no sense. 500 years ago, a handheld piece of metal meshed with plastic and glass was illogical. How is it even possible to use a device to hear people speaking in real time across the world? How is it logical that you can know the weather for days in advance with a couple of swipes on a piece of glass? How can you record video with something so plain and that fits in your pockets? Modern technology was "illogical" if someone would've storied it up in the past. My point is not that God is like a futuristic piece of technology (judging by my past experiences on WI, I'm pretty sure a few posters would be thinking that!), but rather that simply because something doesn't make sense to me due to my own lack of understanding and knowledge doesn't mean it is ILLOGICAL.
 
Not to mention, you keep coming at me for asking for evidence that the Bible survived 2000 years in its original form. That would be a solid piece of evidence coming from your side of the table. Instead, you ask me to just accept it as it is. I never asked you to do that with Islam. It's illogical to just ACCEPT a religion simply because you're telling me to. For that matter, where do I draw the line? Everyone thinks I should believe in something they claim. But which claims do I believe? How do I rule out which is false from which is true? See what I'm getting at? What evidence is there for your claim that the NT has been preserved faithfully for us 2000 years later? What can you show me that would convince me that the oldest full texts of the NT weren't written 200-300 years after the fact? Then I want to ask you about inspiration (how do you know which books are inspired and which are not?)
 
But answer me this one question first. Don't answer me with another question, and don't beat around the bush. Just answer this with a Yes or a No. Do you have evidence that the full manuscripts of the NT still exist and were not altered in any way since the days they were written? Mind you, I'm not asking for PROOF. That'd be impossible for you. I'm asking just for strong enough evidence to put aside any doubts that the scripture was significantly corrupted beyond your knowledge.
 
We can go from there :).


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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: ishammad
Date Posted: 21 February 2013 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Burninglight

Moreover, leaving them to their own devices guarantees them hell you say, but so does us trying to convince those who don't want the truth. It keeps piling on condemnation, or our leaving them could get them to think more about their deception. IOW, what if we as Christians are hindering by arguing to where we only serve to get them to dig in their heels?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY -


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 22 February 2013 at 1:33am
Originally posted by ishammad

Originally posted by Burninglight

Moreover, leaving them to their own devices guarantees them hell you say, but so does us trying to convince those who don't want the truth. It keeps piling on condemnation, or our leaving them could get them to think more about their deception. IOW, what if we as Christians are hindering by arguing to where we only serve to get them to dig in their heels?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY - How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister

I listen to him, He mentions the oneness of God in the OT convinced him because Jesus spoke of the Lord our God being one. Then he brings up Jesus method of salvation was to keep the commandments and he used the dialogue Jesus had with the rich young ruler. When Jesus said, "you know the commandments..." He responded I have kept them. Jesus said "but you lack one think go and sell all you have and give it to the poor." So the point is the commandments weren’t enough and selling all you have is not part of the commandments.

Then he brought up why the Jews wanted him dead because they wanted to proof he wasn't the Messiah by putting him on a tree to be cursed.

This guy is what the Scripture refers to as forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth.  He has a zeal that is not according to knowledge and he knows not what manner of spirit he has. Jesus did die on the cross so we could live; he took on him our curse so we could be blessed. That is what the OT is about in Isaiah 53. What great pains he goes through to avoid the cross when Jesus predicted His own death and resurrection. The preaching to the cross is to those the perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved or being saved, it is the power of God!

The disciples didn't risk their lives just to go around preaching Christ death and resurrection to promote a tale. Sorry, but the guy in the video is young and foolish.

BTW, he arrogantly mentions "Mark who, Luke who, John who, Matthew who." It didn't occur to him that maybe God didn't want us to know their last names or whether the truth was written by them or not.



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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 23 February 2013 at 4:33pm
Jesus method of salvation was to keep the commandments

     “You shall have no other gods before me.
     “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
     
(Exodus 20:3-5 ESV)

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 24 February 2013 at 1:39am
Originally posted by iec786

Jesus method of salvation was to keep the commandments

     “You shall have no other gods before me.
     “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
     
(Exodus 20:3-5 ESV)
If this is true, I have nothing to worry about I keep the commandments just as well as any Muslim, and I don't make images to worship them.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 3:30pm
What about 1+1+1=??????

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by iec786

What about 1+1+1=??????
The answer is 3 . Didn't you know that simple math problem? Trust me God is not a math problem, equation or addition.  

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: botak
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by iec786

What about 1+1+1=??????


Muslims and Christians both believe that God cannot be completely understood through human logic and experience. God, His actions, His nature and the reasons for His actions cannot be 100% understood by any human.

Muslims and Christians both believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

To say that God cannot be both Father and Son and Holy Spirit, yet still 1 is human logic. It also places a limit on His power (i.e. it denies that he is omnipotent - possessing UNLIMITED power).

Why is it illogical to think that a God who is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent has manifested Himself in more than 1 way?

He is everywhere, He knows everything and He can do anything. All of these are illogical to the human mind, no entity that we can rationally comprehend could have these qualities. It is an idea we can choose to believe in, but we could never imagine what it is like to have these qualities. We cannot comprehend these through logic, just faith.

As an atheist, I don't understand why it is more illogical to believe in a monotheistic trinity than to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God. All are beyond human comprehension.

It is fair enough to have your own particular faith, and to choose not to believe in the Trinity, but why is it illogical compared to other aspects of His nature?

You could argue that when choosing to describe something of such complexity that it is beyond human comprehension, it is more logical to separate that entity into smaller parts to simplify and make it more accessible.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by botak

Originally posted by iec786

What about 1+1+1=??????


Muslims and Christians both believe that God cannot be completely understood through human logic and experience. God, His actions, His nature and the reasons for His actions cannot be 100% understood by any human.

Muslims and Christians both believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

To say that God cannot be both Father and Son and Holy Spirit, yet still 1 is human logic. It also places a limit on His power (i.e. it denies that he is omnipotent - possessing UNLIMITED power).

Why is it illogical to think that a God who is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent has manifested Himself in more than 1 way?

He is everywhere, He knows everything and He can do anything. All of these are illogical to the human mind, no entity that we can rationally comprehend could have these qualities. It is an idea we can choose to believe in, but we could never imagine what it is like to have these qualities. We cannot comprehend these through logic, just faith.

As an atheist, I don't understand why it is more illogical to believe in a monotheistic trinity than to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God. All are beyond human comprehension.

It is fair enough to have your own particular faith, and to choose not to believe in the Trinity, but why is it illogical compared to other aspects of His nature?

You could argue that when choosing to describe something of such complexity that it is beyond human comprehension, it is more logical to separate that entity into smaller parts to simplify and make it more accessible.
This is your best post yet.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:20pm
You know how many Muslims use that trite angle of  "What about 1+1+1=??????" It is a silly question and rather childish.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 7:16pm
And the saddest part about it is they are using the wrong function. It's a multiplication problem!!!

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 25 February 2013 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Squeegie

And the saddest part about it is they are using the wrong function. It's a multiplication problem!!!
I agree, I should answer that with 1x1x1=1

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:45am
Now God's a math problem! Yeah, I see you guys getting a TON of converts with this strategy lol.

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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: ishammad
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 7:42am
Originally posted by botak


Muslims and Christians both believe that God cannot be completely understood through human logic and experience. God, His actions, His nature and the reasons for His actions cannot be 100% understood by any human.

Muslims and Christians both believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

To say that God cannot be both Father and Son and Holy Spirit, yet still 1 is human logic. It also places a limit on His power (i.e. it denies that he is omnipotent - possessing UNLIMITED power).

Why is it illogical to think that a God who is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent has manifested Himself in more than 1 way?

He is everywhere, He knows everything and He can do anything. All of these are illogical to the human mind, no entity that we can rationally comprehend could have these qualities. It is an idea we can choose to believe in, but we could never imagine what it is like to have these qualities. We cannot comprehend these through logic, just faith.

As an atheist, I don't understand why it is more illogical to believe in a monotheistic trinity than to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God. All are beyond human comprehension.

It is fair enough to have your own particular faith, and to choose not to believe in the Trinity, but why is it illogical compared to other aspects of His nature?

You could argue that when choosing to describe something of such complexity that it is beyond human comprehension, it is more logical to separate that entity into smaller parts to simplify and make it more accessible.


This is good question, let me try to answer with my humble English

Well, there is no place left for 'guess work', God Almighty would not create us and leave us on our own
The following verse is almost the beginning of our story

We said: "Get down all of you from this place, then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear concerning them, nor shall they grieve. 2:38

Now, if we want to limit this discussion only to Islam and Christianity, keeping in mind that both Muslims and Christians believe in God Almighty, and we both know that we should not say about God anything other than the truth.

The Christian says we have the Bible which is from Him and this is how I understand it. and the Muslim says we have the Qur'an from God Almighty.

The question becomes how come two Books, each claimed to be from the God Almighty and differ on such significant issue as well as the most significant issue of salvation.

If we leave a side logical thinking such as whether in is suitable for the majesty of God to have a son. To sleep, eat and have a digestive system, etc.

We are all trying to reason together and among what a Muslim says is the following:

The Qur'an is more recent revelation from God, and it remained intact as it was revealed, so do investigate it with an open mind. you owe yourself to.

The Qur'an is revealed to you as well, not to other people.

The Qur'an tells you that the Bible in your hand was not preserved. As you can find out when you do some research, and as these many Christian scholars are explaining in details with references.

The verses you quote and try to make them say what you want to say do contradict other clear verses in your Book.

What you say contradict even the OT not only the Qur'an. and so on...

No doubt there are sincere truth seekers, and there are some who choose the following way:

I Just do not care what you say, "JESUS IS GOD",
I do not understand much of what you say "JESUS IS LORD OF LORDS"
I already know about this and this and this interpolation, but even though, in overall "GOD HAS BEGOTTEN A SON"
(i.e. some interpolations in significant issues are already identified but seems their influence is still there)

Some may choose to quote that Jesus came to fulfill the law then all of a sudden it becomes the bases for his next phrase "Jesus is God". WHAT!!!!

Of course some people (Christians and others) may choose not to follow the truth for their own reasons (including want to follow his inclinations and desires or what he found his forefathers following)

This is a summary as i see it and I think everything else we all say here in this regard is just details.


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25:70 Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Magister

Now God's a math problem! Yeah, I see you guys getting a TON of converts with this strategy lol.
It was just some humor that is all

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by ishammad

The Qur'an is more recent revelation from God, and it remained intact as it was revealed, so do investigate it with an open mind. you owe yourself to. 

From God? Mormons will tell you that the Book of Mormon from the prophet Joseph Smith was more recent than the Quran. Personally, I believe the older is always better. It records the events closer to the times they happened than the more recent ones! 

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:36pm
The older one would be the King James and that speaks volumes.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by iec786

The older one would be the King James and that speaks volumes.
It is not the oldest Bible; it is one of the oldest English translations.

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:39pm

Iec, you don't don't say much when you post



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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:40pm
many mistakes grave ones too they revised it and retain all the corrupt text.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by iec786

many mistakes grave ones too they revised it and retain all the corrupt text.
I know of mistakes; for instance, an over zealous scribe trying to make the trinity more clear In 1 Jn and the story of the woman caught in adultry when Jesus wrote on the ground not being part of the original manuscripts, but all version of the BIBLE AND IN THE ORIGINIAL MANUSCRIPTS STATE WHAT MUSLIMS DENY. JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND THE ONLY WAY TO GOD, AND THAT HE DIED AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD. THAT WOULD BE A GRAVE THING IF IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN. BUT IT DID. THERE ARE NO GRAVE ERRORS. THE ERRORS AND CORRUPTIONS COME FROM WHAT MUSLIMS SAY ABOUT WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT THE BIBLE

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:55pm
This is what i am talking about.


EZEKIEL 4:12-15
MALACHI 2:3

2 KINGS 18:27 and ISAIAH 36:12

JUDGES 16:1

RUTH 3:4-15

1 KINGS 11:1,3
DEUTRONOMY 23:2
ZECHARIAH 9:6
HEBREWS 12:8
2 SAMUEL 11:4
GENESIS 19:33-35 (From the "Good News Bible in Today's
English").

GENESIS 35:22.
GENESIS 38:15-I8
(Quoted from the "Good News Bible").
1.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by iec786

This is what i am talking about.


EZEKIEL 4:12-15
MALACHI 2:3

2 KINGS 18:27 and ISAIAH 36:12

JUDGES 16:1

RUTH 3:4-15

1 KINGS 11:1,3
DEUTRONOMY 23:2
ZECHARIAH 9:6
HEBREWS 12:8
2 SAMUEL 11:4
GENESIS 19:33-35 (From the "Good News Bible in Today's
English").

GENESIS 35:22.
GENESIS 38:15-I8
(Quoted from the "Good News Bible").
1.
 i PICKED ONE VERSE AT RANDOM DEUT 23 2
Deuteronomy 23 Nkjv

23 “He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.

“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

WHAT IS THE ERROR WITH IT?


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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:27pm
You tell me what is wrong with it.



(a) "The BASTARD shall not enter the congregation of the Lord;
even to his tenth generation . . ." DEUTRONOMY 23:2
Deuteronomy 23
King James Version (KJV)


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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by iec786

You tell me what is wrong with it.



(a) "The BASTARD shall not enter the congregation of the Lord;
even to his tenth generation . . ." DEUTRONOMY 23:2
Deuteronomy 23
King James Version (KJV)
Bastard means someone without a father. What problem are we having here?

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:40pm
Go and use that language at home and if your wife or daughter or in your church.I promise you if they are good women they would slap that face of yours.Filthy language in the book of God??? no my fried not in Gods vocabulary.Human trash maybe but the words of God???no ways.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by iec786

Go and use that language at home and if your wife or daughter or in your church.I promise you if they are good women they would slap that face of yours.
Words and meaning of them change with time especially in the English language. gay used to be being happy. Try saying you are gay to Muslims. It is getting to the point when you can't say I am happy and people will look at you cross. Bitc@ is a female dog, but that language doesn't play to well either even this forum won't allow it, but at one time it was no problem

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:46pm
Hmm you asked what was wrong with it and i gave you my opinion whether it goes down down well i cannot judge i only called a spade a spade.

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Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, This is from Allah, that they may purchase a small gain therewith.(Sura 2:79)


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 4:48pm
Those are not grave errors; sorry, but stop wasting our time with troll comments and input

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 5:30pm
So in the Bible, it is clear that children are held accountable for the sins of others, in this case, the sin of their fathers. I believe that is injustice. You hold account the guilty party for their crimes, not their relatives or children or cousins or friends or neighbors. In Islam, Allaah is considered the most just and everyone is held accountable only for their own sins. Alhamdulillaah!

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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Squeegie
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 10:00pm
Magister, I believe it is less an accountability for the sins of the fathers but rather subject to the consequences of the sins of the fathers. Do you know what happens when a father abuses their children? The children tend to be abusive because they learn from the father's bad example and such behavior is perpetuated"to the Nth generation". You are seeing what is not there, so quit smoking whatever you're smoking.

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Islamophobe: someone with an irrational fear of being beheaded.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 11:23pm
Squeegie, they are being punished/deprived of something for sins they never took part in. That's injustice as far as I'm concerned.
 
The example you gave of abused children is rather poor. There are plenty of children who were abused that turned out either normal or turned out the opposite, very caring and nurturing. What you just spewed out was closer to an old wife's tale than anything else.
 
So, if you can't see what I'm seeing when it comes the children being gypped out of something by GOD for something they never did, then it's you who seems to be smoking something.


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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 26 February 2013 at 11:25pm

This is not the ONLY example of injustice to someone who did no wrong to anyone being commanded by the modern Bible, and I'm sure you're well aware of it.



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Only one God, not three, not zero, and not two...just ONE.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 27 February 2013 at 2:27am
Originally posted by Magister

Squeegie, they are being punished/deprived of something for sins they never took part in. That's injustice as far as I'm concerned. God is just!
The example you gave of abused children is rather poor. There are plenty of children who were abused that turned out either normal or turned out the opposite, very caring and nurturing. What you just spewed out was closer to an old wife's tale than anything else. It is true we are all products of our past, but we don't have to be prisoners to it
 
So, if you can't see what I'm seeing when it comes the children being gypped out of something by GOD for something they never did, then it's you who seems to be smoking something.
No man is an Island we are all having an affect on one another. If someone runs a red light and kills someone, One person's sin gets an innocent person killed; it happens all the time. Jesus paid of all our sin so we can be justify and not just forgiven for our sin

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine


Posted By: ishammad
Date Posted: 27 February 2013 at 3:26am
Originally posted by Burninglight

One person's sin gets an innocent person killed; it happens all the time.


do you mean the one got killed got his just punishment?

Originally posted by Burninglight


Jesus paid of all our sin so we can be justify and not just forgiven for our sin


Do you mean those the verse is talking about are excluded?


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25:70 Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Posted By: Burninglight
Date Posted: 27 February 2013 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by ishammad

Originally posted by Burninglight

One person's sin gets an innocent person killed; it happens all the time.


do you mean the one got killed got his just punishment? Maybe, maybe not; who said life is fair?

Originally posted by Burninglight


Jesus paid of all our sin so we can be justify and not just forgiven for our sin


Do you mean those the verse is talking about are excluded?
I don't understand your question

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"Christ is not valued at all unless He is valued above all."
Augustine



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