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nazis regimen

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
Forum Discription: Forum for people of various faiths to discuss and inquire about different religions
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32364
Printed Date: 12 December 2018 at 4:52pm
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Topic: nazis regimen
Posted By: Corinna
Subject: nazis regimen
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 2:07pm
"Defenders of the faith" locked with no chance to reply or continue discussion by anyone.  Hummm, you didn't even give rock, the resident anti-semitic, a chance to apologize.

Is that Islam at work here?  It certainly isn't where I live with the Muslims who are my friends, business partners and acquaintances.  Wowzer!  He lies outright and you accept that.  No wonder a majority of Muslims have problems assimilating in today's society.  To those who don't, to those who are regular people, I do not mean you. 

Those who are like rock-baby, you know who you are. 




Replies:
Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 20 November 2017 at 5:36pm
I'm not going to apologize.

What did I say that requires an apology?

If you can't see that Israel has a problem then there is no chance of peace.

I've long called out the ummah.

I'm simply being equitable.

Moreover what Israel is doing is bad karma, history is longer than a few dozen years.

This will be remembered and judged.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 12:58pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc8IGcCkKK0

The evils of tribalism. Please watch this horror of tribalism.

All people are susceptible to tribalism.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:00pm
Israel has become what made it.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:02pm
Christians are guilty, jews are guilty and muslims are all guilty of tribalism.


Posted By: Non Believer
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Christians are guilty, jews are guilty and muslims are all guilty of tribalism.
All people are guilty of tribalism. That seems to be human nature. What's your point?

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Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 30 November 2017 at 7:54pm
My point is that Jews frequently claim that Israel is beyond reproach and the problems are all caused by Arabs.

This is a pernicious lie that I will not stand for.

Both sides are to blame.

Both sides need to stop.

The Palestinians won't stop because the ummah supports the insanity and even encourages it.

The Jews won't stop because it suits them to grab more and more land through illegal settlements.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 05 December 2017 at 5:37pm
I agree with the Rock - there's the issue of tribalism here, and the Israelis are fighting for their tribe, and the Arabs for theirs. We're never going to get anywhere as long as they keep seeing each other as the enemy just for being the other nationality, or whatever. Time to move on now.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Non Believer
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:45am
Originally posted by Magister

I agree with the Rock - there's the issue of tribalism here, and the Israelis are fighting for their tribe, and the Arabs for theirs. We're never going to get anywhere as long as they keep seeing each other as the enemy just for being the other nationality, or whatever. Time to move on now.
I've asked several times how you think we can move on and you never reply.

In my view, this tribalism that you are describing is entrenched in the Qur'an itself. There are verses which explicitly warn of allying with non-Muslims. With such a divisive ideology, how is it possible to "move on now"?

Brother, you need to get real.

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Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 11:11am
I agree, I tell jews all the time that they need to stop using the tales about land in the Bible and God promising them land.

Its not a legal contract, stop with your insanity NOW!!!

Are muslims going to treat the Quran the same way???

You can believe what you want, just understand that it carries no weight with anyone else.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 11:19am
I mean do muslims understand that I think their claim to jerusalem is a fairy tale?

Its like saying that the gods live on olympus. Its just as insane as that, and you can believe it and take it seriously.

But your beliefs are just fairy tales to us.

Realise this.


Posted By: Non Believer
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

I mean do muslims understand that I think their claim to jerusalem is a fairy tale?

Its like saying that the gods live on olympus. Its just as insane as that, and you can believe it and take it seriously.

But your beliefs are just fairy tales to us.

Realise this.
Yeah, Rock, I've pointed this out many times. If Muslims want to argue with non-Muslims effectively they need to be able to set aside their religious beliefs, which carry no weight with us.

Feeling "insulted" because I insist on writing about their 7th Century hero the same way that I would write about Julius Caesar or Genghis Khan or Napoleon Bonaparte or any other "larger than life" figure doesn't help their argument at all.

Politics is politics and religion cannot be used to justify political injustice.

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Men do you harm either because they fear you or because they hate you.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:32pm
Jerusalem is finally officially recognized as the capital of Israel today!!



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 4:22pm
why?? because the US moved the consulate?

Dont be daft, jews always understood that jerusalem was the capital.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 4:25pm
To be perfectly honest, I think muslims at this point should just accept this and move on.

But you know the ummah, always spoiling for a fight, even one that is lost....

And the de facto truth is that jerusalem in an israeli city, all of jerusalem, not just west jerusalem.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

why?? because the US moved the consulate?

Dont be daft, jews always understood that jerusalem was the capital.


Of course, we have always known where our capital is.  Today the US officially recognized that - a first for history. 

I am not daft, the consulate has not yet physically been moved.  That will take time as there is a hotel that to be renovated that will become the physical embassy.  It's a step in the right direction unless there are more riots and terror attacks perpetuated against Israeli's (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, secular whatever and Jews) that slow down the work necessary.  Meanwhile, there is much under cover work to be done by Americans to make the area safe for them.   

It's a "tribal thang". don'cha know?


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 7:10pm
Course it's a tribal thang based on a mass delusion that God appeared to 3 million middle easterners who in reality were suffering from a heat stroke.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 9:23pm
Jitka you should understand that Europeans took your religion and perfected it. That is why you came to live amongst us, like us.

So now we are one people. This tribal behaviour is gross.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 07 December 2017 at 6:03am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Course it's a tribal thang based on a mass delusion that God appeared to 3 million middle easterners who in reality were suffering from a heat stroke.


Camels came to the rescue.

Actually, the "tribal" thing with Jews dribbled down and dissipated completely over the centuries as mankind progressed.  Consult Talmud.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 07 December 2017 at 8:07am
But seriously when I hear isrealis talk about the Arabs, I think of the Nazi videos about jewry, the similarities are striking.

Oh... They are filthy etc.

What's filthy is the tribalism.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 07 December 2017 at 8:45am
Originally posted by The_Rock

But seriously when I hear isrealis talk about the Arabs, I think of the Nazi videos about jewry, the similarities are striking.

Oh... They are filthy etc.

What's filthy is the tribalism.


How many 'Israeli's' have you actually had these sorts of conversations with?

To wit:   Before the world of truth can come, the world of lies must disappear" - Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook




Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 07 December 2017 at 9:49am
I was in Israel during the start of the second intifada. Let me tell you, I heard a lot.

Regardless of what you believe I am married to a jewess and have Jewish children.

I've heard family and friends talk openly.

Although that may be more an Ashkenazi thing.

I think the spheredim may see things differently.

And then there is the political party element...ah likudniks.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 08 December 2017 at 9:02am
Originally posted by Non Believer

Originally posted by Magister

I agree with the Rock - there's the issue of tribalism here, and the Israelis are fighting for their tribe, and the Arabs for theirs. We're never going to get anywhere as long as they keep seeing each other as the enemy just for being the other nationality, or whatever. Time to move on now.
I've asked several times how you think we can move on and you never reply.

In my view, this tribalism that you are describing is entrenched in the Qur'an itself. There are verses which explicitly warn of allying with non-Muslims. With such a divisive ideology, how is it possible to "move on now"?

Brother, you need to get real.


Couple of things:

First, the issue with Israel is mainly between Arabs and Israelis, not necessarily Muslims and Jews. Yes, the majority of Arabs are Muslims, but a significant minority are Christians or atheists or merely nominal Muslims. On the Arab side, this is more of a political beef than a religious one.

Not so with the other team. It's more religious than political. While for the Arabs, it's their land because all their ancestors lived on it, for the Jews, it's the Promised land from the Creator of the universe, and no compromises can be made.

The second thing is, you are misunderstanding the Quran. There were multiple times when Muslims were instructed to take non-Muslims as friends and allies. Even with the pages of the Quran itself we can read instances of the Muslims being commanded to honor the alliances/treaties they hold with non-Muslim tribes.

You have to realize that while we do believe that we are the only ones on the correct religion, we do not believe we should avoid living in harmony with members of other religions. The Quran even has the best response for someone with whom you disagree about religion: "To you be your religion, and to be mine"... in other words, the Muslim is commanded to 'agree to disagree' for the sake of peace.

Please, ask questions if you're still confused. We are here to clarify things for you because for some people, the Quran is a very difficult scripture to grasp. It takes a great deal of fluid knowledge and not just crystallized knowledge.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 08 December 2017 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Corinna



Originally posted by The_Rock

But seriously when I hear isrealis talk about the Arabs, I think of the Nazi videos about jewry, the similarities are striking.

Oh... They are filthy etc.

What's filthy is the tribalism.
How many 'Israeli's' have you actually had these sorts of conversations with? To wit:   Before the world of truth can come, the world of lies must disappear" - Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook


A long time ago, I sat next to an Israeli student like this. He was probably a bit worse, though. He had no idea I was a Muslim, and he starts ranting to me under his breath just how bad Islam is, how the Quran tells the Muslims to kill everyone and show no mercy, and how the Arabs are savages. Best believe he turned red when he learned I was a convert to the religion.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 08 December 2017 at 10:42am
Originally posted by Magister

[QUOTE=Corinna]

A long time ago, I sat next to an Israeli student like this. He was probably a bit worse, though. He had no idea I was a Muslim, and he starts ranting to me under his breath just how bad Islam is, how the Quran tells the Muslims to kill everyone and show no mercy, and how the Arabs are savages. Best believe he turned red when he learned I was a convert to the religion.


Yes, I am well aware of people like you mention and have had to deal with  them in several areas over the years.  Fakaktah!  On the reverse, there are so many out there of  different beliefs who do get along, live together, teach each other, share, prosper and grow mentally and spiritually together. 

Yet, still the problem is terrorists who murder and destroy just to do it and for the sake of their "beliefs".  Those need to go.  I don't appreciate being threatened and chased down the street by a crazy, knife wielding idiot bound on killing me ... or my children and grandchildren ... just because we dare to pray at our most holy place. 

Do your part to rid the world of these terrorists.  Currently there is not a voice of Islam against such people.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 08 December 2017 at 11:02am
I agree. Muslims are silent on the tribalism that is rife in the ummah.

Until they get rid of it they will not be trusted by others.

If you cannot criticize your own kind, your kind is lost.

Everyone must be a Nathan.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 08 December 2017 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

I agree. Muslims are silent on the tribalism that is rife in the ummah.

Until they get rid of it they will not be trusted by others.

If you cannot criticize your own kind, your kind is lost.

Everyone must be a Nathan.


Come to my part of the world. You will see Muslims criticizing other Muslims here.

I'm sure you know we are the largest Muslim population in the world.

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 09 December 2017 at 6:06am
I agree with Traveller. I don't think The Rock has been around many Muslims. There is a lot of Muslim-on-Muslim criticism. Lots of Muslim-on-madhab criticism. Lots of Muslim-on-culture criticism. Etc etc. and that's happening right here in the West.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 09 December 2017 at 6:08am
Originally posted by Corinna


Originally posted by Magister

[QUOTE=Corinna]

A long time ago, I sat next to an Israeli student like this. He was probably a bit worse, though. He had no idea I was a Muslim, and he starts ranting to me under his breath just how bad Islam is, how the Quran tells the Muslims to kill everyone and show no mercy, and how the Arabs are savages. Best believe he turned red when he learned I was a convert to the religion.
Yes, I am well aware of people like you mention and have had to deal with  them in several areas over the years.  Fakaktah!  On the reverse, there are so many out there of  different beliefs who do get along, live together, teach each other, share, prosper and grow mentally and spiritually together.  Yet, still the problem is terrorists who murder and destroy just to do it and for the sake of their "beliefs".  Those need to go.  I don't appreciate being threatened and chased down the street by a crazy, knife wielding idiot bound on killing me ... or my children and grandchildren ... just because we dare to pray at our most holy place.  Do your part to rid the world of these terrorists.  Currently there is not a voice of Islam against such people.


We all have some of those rotten apples in our midst. But Corinna, at least in Palestine, the knife wielding idiot is not doing it because of Islam, but because of "Palestine". It's certainly a land issue far more than a religious one.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 09 December 2017 at 7:26am
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by Corinna


Originally posted by Magister

[QUOTE=Corinna]

A long time ago, I sat next to an Israeli student like this. He was probably a bit worse, though. He had no idea I was a Muslim, and he starts ranting to me under his breath just how bad Islam is, how the Quran tells the Muslims to kill everyone and show no mercy, and how the Arabs are savages. Best believe he turned red when he learned I was a convert to the religion.
Yes, I am well aware of people like you mention and have had to deal with  them in several areas over the years.  Fakaktah!  On the reverse, there are so many out there of  different beliefs who do get along, live together, teach each other, share, prosper and grow mentally and spiritually together.  Yet, still the problem is terrorists who murder and destroy just to do it and for the sake of their "beliefs".  Those need to go.  I don't appreciate being threatened and chased down the street by a crazy, knife wielding idiot bound on killing me ... or my children and grandchildren ... just because we dare to pray at our most holy place.  Do your part to rid the world of these terrorists.  Currently there is not a voice of Islam against such people.


We all have some of those rotten apples in our midst. But Corinna, at least in Palestine, the knife wielding idiot is not doing it because of Islam, but because of "Palestine". It's certainly a land issue far more than a religious one.


#1  There is no such land as Palestine; there did used to be an area of the ME called Palestine but that was what was formerly known as the Kingdom of Israel.  Now, Jordan has the vast majority of that land.  The new sovereign state of Israel was 'given' maybe 10% of it in 1948. 

#2  Remember who the perpetrator of the original violence was when tiny Israel was given statehood - the Arab League, Britain and the surrounding Arab countries that immediately attacked Israel when statehood was announced.

#3  Check out the benefits Arabs, particularly the so-called palestinians, have in Israel as opposed to surrounding Arab/Muslim countries. 

#4  Today's "palestinians" have been the pawn, the 'front man' if you will for groups like Muslim B'hood, CAIR, Arab League, etc. over the years to create, cause and perpetrate violence (via forming and supporting terror groups) in that area, particularly on Jews and Christians.  That is a fact even biased media can't completely cover up and the media is biased terribly.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 09 December 2017 at 12:00pm
Agree with all 4 points.

What needs to stop is the current settlement building.

And concessions of land given to Palestinians for the land taken up by illegal settlements.

And the god damn wall needs to be on a jointly agreed area. With both sides being responsible for maintaining it's integrity and purpose.

Which in some cases will mean demolishing some sections of the current wall.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 10 December 2017 at 5:21am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Agree with all 4 points.

What needs to stop is the current settlement building.

And concessions of land given to Palestinians for the land taken up by illegal settlements.

And the god damn wall needs to be on a jointly agreed area. With both sides being responsible for maintaining it's integrity and purpose.

Which in some cases will mean demolishing some sections of the current wall.


Settlements?  Ahhh, where are these so called settlements?  Jews build up, not out.  Arabs build out, not up.  That is a well known fact to those of us who bother to learn about such things, Rock.  If you are relying on media fakaktah you are being taken in by their total bias.


Posted By: Doris
Date Posted: 10 December 2017 at 10:58am
Following the example of Mohammed himself, once an area has been conquered in a 'defensive' war,that land and its booty are the property of the victorious army. The defeated people can be thrust into slavery or held for ransom unless they adopt the religion of the conquerors.

I've got that right, haven't I?

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History Buff


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 10 December 2017 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Corinna

Settlements?  Ahhh, where are these so called settlements?  Jews build up, not out.  Arabs build out, not up.  That is a well known fact to those of us who bother to learn about such things, Rock.  If you are relying on media fakaktah you are being taken in by their total bias.


Ahhh those Arabs....

Where have I heard this before?

Circa 1937??? Germany???

The USA chose one path but that was the only country in the UN that supported this move....

History repeats itself...what I know for certain is that nothing is certain.

And dont transgress limits because one day that will be revisited on your descendants a million times over.

Karma is a bi1ch.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 11 December 2017 at 3:17am
Originally posted by Doris

Following the example of Mohammed himself, once an area has been conquered in a 'defensive' war,that land and its booty are the property of the victorious army. The defeated people can be thrust into slavery or held for ransom unless they adopt the religion of the conquerors.

I've got that right, haven't I?


What does this have to do with this thread? The subject is about Arabs and Israelis - or at lest that's what it's become. Nothing to do with any religion in specific.

And no, you're wrong.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 11 December 2017 at 12:14pm
Magister,

The crusades were a political response. Religiously christians have no connection to any geography.



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 11 December 2017 at 12:19pm
And to be balanced, I will say that the ummah is equally at fault for supporting terrorism.

Yes, every single muslim that doesnt condemn the actions of their muslim coreligionists in palestine is a supporter of terrorism.

Jitka is right, there was no country called palestine.

These people are jordanians, and egyptians, and that's the end of that.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 11 December 2017 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

And to be balanced, I will say that the ummah is equally at fault for supporting terrorism.

Yes, every single muslim that doesnt condemn the actions of their muslim coreligionists in palestine is a supporter of terrorism.

Jitka is right, there was no country called palestine.

These people are jordanians, and egyptians, and that's the end of that.


With the same breath, every American or British that doesn't condemn the actions of their government is a supporter of state terrorism.

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 12 December 2017 at 9:14am
Nonsense.

The US does not target civilians ever.

Please substantiate your position with examples.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 12 December 2017 at 9:33am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Nonsense.

The US does not target civilians ever.

Please substantiate your position with examples.


Hiroshima. Civilians were targeted.


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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 12 December 2017 at 1:03pm
No they werent the military industrial complex of japan was targeted.

And even japanese say it probably saved millions of lives, rather than the inevitable invasion of the islands.

Having said that, we didnt know the consquence of this action, and I strongly think this will never occur again.

But aside from your extreme example, can you provide evidence that the modern post WWII US or any western military actually tries to terrorize a civilian population?

This is what the palestinians are doing.

They are attempting to terrorize civilians because they are no match for the IDF.

Jordan and Egypt prefer not to engage the IDF and would prefer to continue the asymmetrical conflict in this way.

All in all, for every palestinian child that dies in conflict 100% of the blame rests with the Ummah for creating and supporting this situation


All for power...shame shame.



Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 12 December 2017 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

No they werent the military industrial complex of japan was targeted.

And even japanese say it probably saved millions of lives, rather than the inevitable invasion of the islands.

Having said that, we didnt know the consquence of this action, and I strongly think this will never occur again.

But aside from your extreme example, can you provide evidence that the modern post WWII US or any western military actually tries to terrorize a civilian population?

This is what the palestinians are doing.

They are attempting to terrorize civilians because they are no match for the IDF.

Jordan and Egypt prefer not to engage the IDF and would prefer to continue the asymmetrical conflict in this way.

All in all, for every palestinian child that dies in conflict 100% of the blame rests with the Ummah for creating and supporting this situation


All for power...shame shame.



Every time a drone flies by in remote Pakistan, children will pee in their pants. They have seen what the drones did to their friends and became so afraid of what it may do to them.

The children are terrorized by the drones.

And no, the ummah is not at fault. Hamas may be, Hizbullah maybe but not the ummah.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 12:46am
Ok, this is a waste if time because you will argue your insane position rather than accept that a change is needed.

The US army had no interest in terrorizing pakistanis because they pose no credible threat to us.

If we wanted to a single squadron of raptors could send Pakistan back to the stone age right quick.

We have no interest in terrorizing them.

Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of non combatants in asymmetric warfare to force a political outcome.

That's what the Palestinians are doing.

That's what the entire ummah supports, it's also unislamic but that's a technicality when dealing with you people.

The right thing for the ummah to do is to encourage them to stop this tactic.

If war is what you want, engage the IDF IN OPEN BATTLE!

DON'T SEND CIVILIAN PROXIES!


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 2:06am
Originally posted by The_Rock



Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of non combatants in asymmetric warfare to force a political outcome.


Dresden bombing, London bombing, Japan bombing were all targetted at civilians to force a political outcome.

It's a spade.

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 6:57am
Again, why don't they engage the IDF in battle?

Why support terror tactics?

Attack the IDF all you want instead of sending money to terrorize civilians.

And don't talk about WWII , we don't defend terror tactics and justify it.

Are you willing to condemn terror tactics used by the Palestinians?


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 7:25am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Again, why don't they engage the IDF in battle?

Why support terror tactics?

Attack the IDF all you want instead of sending money to terrorize civilians.

And don't talk about WWII , we don't defend terror tactics and justify it.

Are you willing to condemn terror tactics used by the Palestinians?


I condemn all acts of terrorism, be it by Muslims or others.

I am not in Palestine so I cannot tell you for sure who is doing what there. You and I can only infer or deduce from the bits and pieces we get from the media.

But do know this. Armed resistance against illegal occupiers is legal according to international law. As such, Palestinians taking up arms against the armed settlers in Palestine territory is perfectly legal. And at the same time, Israel's occupation of Palestine territories is illegal under international law.





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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 8:50am
That's crazy settlers have weapons to defend themselves not to shoot Palestinians.

Settlers are removed by Israel itself where the settlements are illegal.

There is no need to attack them.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 9:40am
Originally posted by The_Rock

That's crazy settlers have weapons to defend themselves not to shoot Palestinians.

Settlers are removed by Israel itself where the settlements are illegal.

There is no need to attack them.


I'm sure you know you are conjecturing. You and I are not there to know the real story.









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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 12:19pm
Are you serious?

Your position and that of the ummah is wrong.

The weird thing is that it's also Islamically wrong.

It's possible to lose battles within Islam, you cannot resort to terrorism however.

That's totally unislamic, so I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to justify the palestinian response.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Are you serious?

Your position and that of the ummah is wrong.

The weird thing is that it's also Islamically wrong.

It's possible to lose battles within Islam, you cannot resort to terrorism however.

That's totally unislamic, so I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to justify the palestinian response.


What is my position? I don't have a position.

I am just reporting what I know to be true to you, not conjectures.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by The_Rock


It's possible to lose battles within Islam, you cannot resort to terrorism however.


Agree.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 13 December 2017 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

That's totally unislamic, so I'm not sure what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to justify the palestinian response.


The Palestinian response is rather admirable. They didn't pack their bags and leave when the going gets tough. Instead, they stood up to Israel, persevere and fight back.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 14 December 2017 at 11:21am
They blow themselves up, along with women and children.

This is where I lose all respect for Muslims... An inability to see past partisan positions.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 14 December 2017 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

They blow themselves up, along with women and children.

This is where I lose all respect for Muslims... An inability to see past partisan positions.


I can't defend them. And I won't.

Catholic priests molest kids. But I still respect Catholics. I call them people who are believers in God. It's always nice to meet a fellow believer in God, even if we may have a different perception of God.





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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 14 December 2017 at 3:09pm
Firstly Catholic priests dont molest kids. Some sickos that happen to be catholic priests molest kids.

And we dont condone it, and even the pope has apologized and asked for forgiveness.

So when the ummah and its leaders roundly condemn the acts of palestinians and tell those "fighters" that they are outsiders to the cause then we will accept that muslims do not support terrorism.

The fact is that there are literally millions of muslims who do support terrorism.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-11/


Posted By: Doris
Date Posted: 14 December 2017 at 3:14pm
It would appear that numbers of imams also molest kids, but that is not considered as newsworthy or illegal as the Catholic priesthood's crimes.

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History Buff


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 15 December 2017 at 3:26am
"My dad can beat your dad" said one.

"It's not a Scotsman" said the other.







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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 16 December 2017 at 2:59pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQfba82ELmE


jitka,
karma is a bi1ch. Take a moment to think about this. You should train your kids to watch their backs.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 16 December 2017 at 3:00pm
The Ummah needs to end this for the sake of the children!


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 12:15am
Originally posted by The_Rock

The Ummah needs to end this for the sake of the children!


I know where you're coming from. At times, I too feel the same way, that Hamas and all the other militants there must stop it for now, for the sake of the children.

It's understandable that they wish to fight but it's better if they exercise restraint at these times.

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 6:06am
Originally posted by Traveller


I can't defend them. And I won't.

Catholic priests molest kids. But I still respect Catholics. I call them people who are believers in God. It's always nice to meet a fellow believer in God, even if we may have a different perception of God.






Please provide statistical data which proves catholic priests are of greater risk to children than any other religious group or enterprise. Otherwise what prompted such a response ?

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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Traveller


I can't defend them. And I won't.

Catholic priests molest kids. But I still respect Catholics. I call them people who are believers in God. It's always nice to meet a fellow believer in God, even if we may have a different perception of God.






Please provide statistical data which proves catholic priests are of greater risk to children than any other religious group or enterprise. Otherwise what prompted such a response ?


Sorry Damo. That's no swing at Catholics.

I wanted to show Rock that I don't have a negative opinion of Catholics even with the few rogue priests, unlike his opinion of Muslims because of a few rouge ones.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Traveller


I can't defend them. And I won't.

Catholic priests molest kids. But I still respect Catholics. I call them people who are believers in God. It's always nice to meet a fellow believer in God, even if we may have a different perception of God.






Please provide statistical data which proves catholic priests are of greater risk to children than any other religious group or enterprise. Otherwise what prompted such a response ?


Not quite the stats you're looking for, but pretty darned powerful evidence that the Church is heavily associated with child molestation and abuse.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/15/make-celibacy-optional-priestsaustralias-child-sex-abuse-commission/

The Muslims are associated with jihadi terror and Catholics are associated with child sexual abuse. Everyone's got a stereotype!

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 1:09pm
Nonsense, the idea that celibacy would make me a child predator is absurd.

It doesnt work that way.



Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 4:47pm
Celibacy could obviously contribute tremendously.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 17 December 2017 at 9:10pm
Show me proof of causation.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 2:17am
I didn't say it, only reporting what I've read. Here's an article that tries to satisfy your request by using a study within the same context of the original article I posted.

http://www.dw.com/en/australia-child-sex-abuse-study-notes-catholic-church-mandatory-celibacy-as-cause/a-41817456

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 2:18am
And obviously, proving causation is nigh impossible unless you're willing to run experiments in Antarctica. Science ethics (and various laws) prevent experiments to determine causality that have these sorts of ramifications behind them.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 4:22am
Originally posted by Magister



Not quite the stats you're looking for, but pretty darned powerful evidence that the Church is heavily associated with child molestation and abuse.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/15/make-celibacy-optional-priestsaustralias-child-sex-abuse-commission/

The Muslims are associated with jihadi terror and Catholics are associated with child sexual abuse. Everyone's got a stereotype!


No your right not stats at all and overall answer nothing.

Good thing I have stats then to prove the stereotype is a false one in that the RCC has no bigger a sexual predator threat to kids than any other institution or faith group. The findings are extensive and though I wouldn't normally copy and paste such a report in full but in relation to the seriousness of the subject matter and the conclusions being wildly drawn (yet again) I thought it only nessesary to repost this one more time. If you read any of it, at least read the 'conclusion' of the report:



"The purpose of this special report is to put the recent scandal in the Catholic Church in perspective. It does not seek to exculpate anyone who had anything to do with priestly sexual misconduct, but it does seek to challenge those who continue to treat this issue in isolation. Indeed, to discuss the incidence of sexual abuse committed by Roman Catholic priests without reference to the level of offense found among the clergy of other religions, or to that of other professionals, is grossly unfair.

Specifically, this report was prepared to guide the discussion that will inevitably follow two major studies that will be issued on February 27. One of them, a national study on the extent of sexual abuse of minors by priests since 1950, will be released by John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City. The other is a study of the causes and consequences of the abuse crisis; it will be released by the National Review Board that was established by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. Both studies were done at the request of the U.S. bishops.

It is the belief of the Catholic League that no meaningful conversation can take place on this issue without having some baseline data regarding the incidence of abuse that occurs outside the Catholic Church. That was the sole intent of this special report, and if it contributes to that end, then it will have been a success.

William A. Donohue, Ph.D.
President

OVERALL DATA

The National Child Abuse and Neglect Data Systems was developed by the Children’s Bureau of the U.S. Department of Human Services in partnership with the States to collect annual statistics on child maltreatment from State child protective services agencies. For the year 2001, it was found that approximately 903,000 children were victims of child maltreatment, 10 percent of whom (or 90,000) were sexually abused. It also found that 59 percent of the perpetrators of child abuse or neglect were women and 41 percent were men.


In 2001, clinical child psychologist Wade F. Horn reported on the work of researchers at Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health. The researchers found that nearly 20 percent of low-income women, recruited through family planning, obstetrical or gynecological clinics, had experienced child sexual abuse.

Horn summarized the researchers’ findings on poor women as follows: “Family friends and acquaintances compose the largest group of perpetrators (28 percent), followed by such relatives as uncles and cousins (18 percent), stepfathers (12 percent), male siblings (10 percent), biological fathers (10 percent), boyfriends of the child’s mother (9 percent), grandfathers and stepgrandfathers (7 percent), and strangers (4 percent).” Horn was struck by the fact that 10 percent were biological fathers and only 4 percent were strangers. “Which means,” he said, “86 percent of the perpetrators were known to the family, but were someone other than the child’s father.”[ii]

According to Dr. Garth A. Rattray, about the same incidence of abuse occurs among all the socio-economic classes. For example, he reports that “about 85 percent of the offenders [of child sexual abuse] are family members, babysitters, neighbors, family friends or relatives. About one in six child molesters are other children.” Unlike the first study cited, Rattray reports that most of the offenders are male.[iii]

It is obvious that children are much more likely to be sexually abused by family members and friends than by anyone else. This suggests that if preventative measures are to work, they must begin in the home, and not someplace else.

PRIESTS

According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv] According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v] Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi] Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that “80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young altar boy or girls of any age.”[viii]

The situation in Boston, the epicenter of the scandal, is even worse. According to theBoston Globe, “Of the clergy sex abuse cases referred to prosecutors in Eastern Massachusetts, more than 90 percent involve male victims. And the most prominent Boston lawyers for alleged victims of clergy sexual abuse have said that about 95 percent of their clients are male.”[ix]

In a database analysis of reports on more than 1,200 alleged victims of priests identified by USA Today, 85 percent were males.[x] In another study by USA Today, it was determined that of the 234 priests who have been accused of sexual abuse of a minor while serving in the nation’s 10 largest dioceses and archdioceses, 91 percent of their victims were males.[xi]

Much has been made of a survey done by the Dallas Morning News which claims that two-thirds of the nation’s bishops have allowed priests accused of sexual abuse to continue working. But the problem with the survey is its definition of abuse—it includes everything from “ignoring warnings about suspicious behavior” to “criminal convictions.”[xii] Thus, the survey is of limited utility.

MINISTERS

The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general, not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.

In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.[xiii] In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”; 50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.[xiv]

In 1990, in a study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and Ethics in Chicago, it was learned that 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual contact with a parishioner.[xv] Two years later, a survey by Leadership magazine found that 37 percent of ministers confessed to having been involved in “inappropriate sexual behavior” with a parishioner.[xvi]

In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in “inappropriate sexual behavior,” and 70 percent said they knew a minister who had had such contact with a parishioner.[xvii] Joe E. Trull is co-author of the 1993 book, Ministerial Ethics, and he found that “from 30 to 35 percent of ministers of all denominations admit to having sexual relationships—from inappropriate touching to sexual intercourse—outside of marriage.”[xviii]

According to a 2000 report to the Baptist General Convention in Texas, “The incidence of sexual abuse by clergy has reached ‘horrific proportions.’” It noted that in studies done in the 1980s, 12 percent of ministers had “engaged in sexual intercourse with members” and nearly 40 percent had “acknowledged sexually inappropriate behavior.” The report concluded that “The disturbing aspect of all research is that the rate of incidence for clergy exceeds the client-professional rate for physicians and psychologists.”[xix] Regarding pornography and sexual addiction, a national survey disclosed that about 20 percent of all ministers are involved in the behavior.[xx]

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]

Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]

OTHER CLERGY AND PROFESSIONALS

Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer is a professor of law and ethics at Loyola Marymount University. It is his belief that sexual abuse among rabbis approximates that found among the Protestant clergy. According to one study, 73 percent of women rabbis report instances of sexual harassment. “Sadly,” Rabbi Schaefer concludes, “our community’s reactions up to this point have been often based on keeping things quiet in an attempt to do ‘damage control.’ Fear of lawsuits and bad publicity have dictated an atmosphere of hushed voices and outrage against those who dare to break ranks by speaking out.”[xxiii]

Rabbi Joel Meyers, executive vice president of the Conservative Rabbinical Assembly, reports that 30 percent of rabbis who changed positions in 2000 did so involuntarily, and that sexual abuse was a factor in many instances.[xxiv] The Awareness Center devotes an entire website to “Clergy Abuse: Rabbis, Cantors & Other Trusted Officials.” It is a detailed and frank look at the problem of sexual abuse by rabbis.[xxv]

The problem of sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witnesses is evident among church elders but most of the abuse comes from congregation members. “The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women,” writes Laurie Goodstein in the New York Times, “and many accusations involve incest.” There is a victims support group available, “silentlambs,” that has collected more than 5,000 Witnesses contending that the church mishandled child sexual abuse.[xxvi]

According to one study, .2 percent of athletic coaches nationwide have a criminal record of some sort of sexual offense. This translates to about 6,000 coaches in the U.S. who have been tried and found guilty of sexual offense against children.[xxvii] It is not known how many more offenders have escaped the reach of law enforcement.

Between 3 and 12 percent of psychologists have had sexual contact with their clients. While today virtually every state considers sexual contact with a client as worthy of revoking a psychologist’s license, as recently as 1987 only 31 percent of state licensing boards considered sexual relations between a psychologist and his or her patient grounds for license revocation.[xxviii] What makes this statistic so interesting is that many bishops in the 1980s took the advice of psychologists in handling molesting priests.

TEACHERS

The American Medical Association found in 1986 that one in four girls, and one in eight boys, are sexually abused in or out of school before the age of 18. Two years later, a study included in The Handbook on SexualAbuse of Children, reported that one in four girls, and one in six boys, is sexually abused by age 18.[xxix] It was reported in 1991 that 17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher.

In New York City alone, at least one child is sexually abused by a school employee every day. One study concluded that more than 60 percent of employees accused of sexual abuse in the New York City schools were transferred to desk jobs at district offices located inside the schools. Most of these teachers are tenured and 40 percent of those transferred are repeat offenders. They call it “passing the garbage” in the schools. One reason why this exists is due to efforts by the United Federation of Teachers to protect teachers at the expense of children.[xxxi] Another is the fact that teachers accused of sexual misconduct cannot be fired under New York State law.[xxxii]

One of the nation’s foremost authorities on the subject of the sexual abuse of minors in public schools is Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft. In 1994, Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan did a study of 225 cases of educator sexual abuse in New York City. Their findings are astounding.

All of the accused admitted sexual abuse of a student, but none of the abusers was reported to the authorities, and only 1 percent lost their license to teach. Only 35 percent suffered negative consequences of any kind, and 39 percent chose to leave their school district, most with positive recommendations. Some were even given an early retirement package.[xxxiii]

Moving molesting teachers from school district to school district is a common phenomenon. And in only 1 percent of the cases do superintendents notify the new school district.[xxxiv] According to Diana Jean Schemo, the term “passing the trash” is the preferred jargon among educators.[xxxv]

Shakeshaft has also determined that 15 percent of all students have experienced some kind of sexual misconduct by a teacher between kindergarten and 12th grade; the behaviors range from touching to forced penetration.[xxxvi] She and Cohan also found that up to 5 percent of teachers sexually abuse children.[xxxvii] Shakeshaft will soon be ready to release the findings of a vast study undertaken for the Planning and Evaluation Service Office of the Undersecretary, U.S. Department of Education, titled, “Educator Sexual Misconduct with Students: A Synthesis of Existing Literature on Prevalence in Connection with the Design of a National Analysis.”[xxxviii]

CONCLUSION

The issue of child sexual molestation is deserving of serious scholarship. Too often, assumptions have been made that this problem is worse in the Catholic clergy than in other sectors of society. This report does not support this conclusion. Indeed, it shows that family members are the most likely to sexually molest a child. It also shows that the incidence of the sexual abuse of a minor is slightly higher among the Protestant clergy than among the Catholic clergy, and that it is significantly higher among public school teachers than among ministers and priests.

In a survey for the Wall Street Journal-NBC News, it was found that 64 percent of the public thought that Catholic priests frequently abused children.[xxxix] This is outrageously unfair, but it is not surprising given the media fixation on this issue. While it would be unfair to blame the media for the scandal in the Catholic Church, the constant drumbeat of negative reporting surely accounts for these remarkably skewed results.[xl]

Without comparative data, little can be learned. Numbers are not without meaning, but they don’t count for much unless a baseline has been established. Moreover, sexual misconduct is difficult to measure given its mostly private nature. While crime statistics are helpful, we know from social science research that most crimes go unreported. This is especially true of sexual abuse crimes. At the end of the day, estimates culled from survey research are the best we can do.

By putting the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church in perspective, it is hoped that this report will make for a more fair and educated public response.



“Child Maltreatment 2001: Summary of Key Findings,” National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, www.calib.com/nccanch, April 2003.

[ii] Wade F. Horn, “Common-sense article about abuse,” Washington Times, February 6, 2001, p. E1.

[iii] Dr. Garth A. Rattray, “Child Month and Paedophilia,” The Gleaner, May 14, 2002.

[iv]Alan Cooperman, “Hundreds of Priests Removed Since ‘60s; Survey Shows Scope Wider Than Disclosed,” Washington Post, June 9, 2002, p. A1.

[v]Laurie Goodstein, “Decades of Damage; Trail of Pain in Church Crisis Leads to Nearly Every Diocese,” New York Times, January 12, 2003, Section 1, p. 1.

[vi] Interviewed by Bill O’Reilly, Transcript of “The O’Reilly Factor,” May 3, 2002.

[vii] Bob von Sternberg, “Insurance Falls Short in Church Abuse Cases; Catholic Dioceses are Forced to Find other Sources to Pay Settlements,” Star Tribune, July 27, 2002, p. 1A.

[viii] Thomas Plante, “A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse,” www.psywww.com/psyrelig/plante.html.

[ix] Thomas Farragher and Matt Carroll, “Church Board Dismissed Accusations by Females,” Boston.com, February 2, 2003.

[x] Janet Kornblum, “85% of Church Abuse Victims are Male, Research Finds,” USA Today, July 24, 2002, pp. 6-7D.

[xi] “The Accusers and the Accused,” USA Today, November 11, 2002, p. 7D.

[xii] Brooks Egerton and Reese Dunklin, “Two-thirds of Bishops Let Accused Priests Work,” Dallas Morning News, June 12, 2002, p. 1A.

[xiii] Dale Neal, “Methodist Clergy Instructed in Sexual Ethics at Conference,” Asheville Citizen-Times, May 14, 2002, p. 1B.

[xiv] Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,” Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A.

[xv] James L. Franklin, “Sexual Misconduct Seen as a Serious Problem in Religion,”Boston Globe, October 23, 1991, p. 24.

[xvi] “Pastors Are People, Too!”, Focus on the Family, May 1996, p. 7.

[xvii] Teresa Watanabe, “Sex Abuse by Clerics—A Crisis of Many Faiths,” Los Angeles Times, March 25, 2002, p. A1.

[xviii] Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,” Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A.

[xix] Terry Mattingly, “Baptists’ Traditions Make it Hard to Oust Sex-Abusing Clergy,”Knoxville News-Sentinel, June 22, 2002, p. C2.

[xx] “Assemblies of God Tackles Problem of Porn Addiction Among Ministers,”Charisma, January 2001, p. 24.

[xxi] Mark Clayton, “Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches,” Christian Science Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1.

[xxii] Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press), pp. 50 and 81.

[xxiii] Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer, “Rabbi Sexual Misconduct: Crying Out for a Communal Response,” www.rrc.edu/journal, November 24, 2003.

[xxiv] Roger Lovette, “Religious Leaders Must Learn to Handle Conflict Constructively,”Birmingham News, April 28, 2002.

[xxv] See www.theawarenesscenter.org/clergyabuse.

[xxvi] Laurie Goodstein, “Ousted Members Say Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Policy on Abuse Hides Offenses,” New York Times, August 11, 2002, Section 1, p. 26.

[xxvii] Michael Dobie, “Violation of Trust; When Young Athletes Are Sex-Abuse Victims, Their Coaches Are Often the Culprits,” Newsday, June 9, 2002, p. C25.

[xxviii] “Sexual Misconduct (ROLES): New Research Therapy Doesn’t Deter Sexual Misconduct by Psychologists,” Sex Weekly, September 15, 1997, pp. 27-28.

[xxix] Michael Dobie, “Violation of Trust,” Newsday, June 9, 2002, p. C25.

Daniel Wishnietsky, “Reported and Unreported Teacher-Student Sexual Harassment,”

Journal of Ed Research, Vol. 3, 1991, pp. 164-69.

[xxxi] Douglas Montero, “Secret Shame of Our Schools: Sexual Abuse of Students Runs Rampant,” New York Post, July 30, 2001, p. 1.

[xxxii] “Schools Chancellor: Four Teachers Barred from Classroom,” Associated Press, June 12, 2003.

[xxxiii] Charol Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan, In loco parentis: Sexual abuse of students in schools, (What administrators should know). Report to the U.S. Department of Education, Field Initiated Grants

[xxxiv] Ibid.

[xxxv]Diana Jean Schemo, “Silently Shifting Teachers in Sex Abuse Cases,” New York Times, June 18, 2002, p. A19.

[xxxvi] Elizabeth Cohen, “Sex Abuse of Students Common; Research Suggests 15% of All Children Harassed,” Press & Sun-Bulletin, February 10, 2002, p. 1A.

[xxxvii] Berta Delgado and Sarah Talalay, “Sex Cases Increase in Schools; Many Acts of Teacher Misconduct Not Being Reported,” Sun-Sentinel, June 4, 1995, p. 1A.

[xxxviii] The study is in draft form and is not yet available for quotation.

[xxxix] The dates of the study were April 5-7, 2002. It was reported in Roper Center at University of Connecticut Public Opinion Online, Accession Number 0402247. Hart and Teeter Research Companies did the survey.

[xl] The Catholic League took pains to credit the media with fair coverage of the scandal. See the “Executive Summary” of the Catholic League’s 2002 Report on Anti-Catholicism. It is available online at www.catholicleague.org."

https://www.catholicleague.org/sexual-abuse-in-social-context-clergy-and-other-professionals-2/




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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 8:14am
From the second article I posted:

"A five-year study from Melbourne's RMIT University on child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church found that mandatory celibacy is the major precipitating risk factor for child sexual abuse."

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Magister

From the second article I posted:

"A five-year study from Melbourne's RMIT University on child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church found that mandatory celibacy is the major precipitating risk factor for child sexual abuse."


And yet my link clearly demonstrates that clergy from the RCC are no more likely to abuse kids than any other institution or religious body, in fact less so than some.




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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 10:48am
Non-Catholic Philip Jenkins is Distinguished Professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State. His book "Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis" was published by Oxford University Press in 1996

http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/comm/20020303edjenk03p6.asp

Exerpt:

"My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than non clergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported."

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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 19 December 2017 at 9:26pm
I wonder how old that research is. The article I posted is very recent.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 20 December 2017 at 6:18am
Originally posted by Magister

I wonder how old that research is. The article I posted is very recent.


The 1st link i posted looks at evidence stretching back 50 years, the latter 20 years. Both were published around ten years ago, I don't see any reason why the findings should be any different in the last 10 years.

How is peodophilia defined in the |Islamic world ? Or is it even defined at all given how some cultures view child marriage given that 50/60 year old men marrying pre-teens is not uncommon ?




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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 23 December 2017 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Magister

I wonder how old that research is. The article I posted is very recent.


The 1st link i posted looks at evidence stretching back 50 years, the latter 20 years. Both were published around ten years ago, I don't see any reason why the findings should be any different in the last 10 years.

How is peodophilia defined in the |Islamic world ? Or is it even defined at all given how some cultures view child marriage given that 50/60 year old men marrying pre-teens is not uncommon ?




Your data is out of date, obsolete, old news. It might've been true back then. Or it might've been disproven with newer methods or information that came to light. I don't trust old studies like these.

And I don't know how it is defined in the Muslim world, if it's even defined at all. We're not talking about legal marriages, we're talking about priests raping little boys against their will.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 23 December 2017 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by Magister


Your data is out of date, obsolete, old news. It might've been true back then. Or it might've been disproven with newer methods or information that came to light. I don't trust old studies like these.


Its not out of date or obsolete. Or you would be explaining why the trend has went in the opposite direction in the last decade. That you don't trust it is your problem but you haven't cited why you don't other than it is 10 years old.

Originally posted by Magister


And I don't know how it is defined in the Muslim world, if it's even defined at all. We're not talking about legal marriages, we're talking about priests raping little boys against their will.


I see, so if it is a legal marriage, that makes a 60 year old marrying and having intercourse with a 10 year old child (who usually has no choice in the matter) perfectly normal ?

And that's just the point isn't it ? Yes there are pedophile priests within the RCC as there are everywhere else and in no greater ratio . The RCC on the other hand does not condone, encourage or promote sexual interaction with minors. On the other hand you have young kids marrying old men in full religious ceremonies in Islam and its normality. So spare me the fake shock horror.




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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 24 December 2017 at 3:39am
Originally posted by Damo808


The RCC on the other hand does not condone, encourage or promote sexual interaction with minors.


Wasn't it only in the last few years that the RCC raised their minimum recommended age for consent from 10 or 12 years old to 18? Which explains why there are still Catholic nations with the age of consent as young as 12.

Interestingly, one of the countries with the HIGHEST age of consent is an Arab Muslim country at 21 years old. Anything before that is considered a minor and off-limits. I think that's just plain silly, but it sure beats some other nations like the Philippines (12 years old), Nigeria (11 years old), Japan (13 years old), Italy (14 years old), etc. - the ages of many of the victims of sexual abuse in the church which often times gets wrongly labeled as 'pedophilia' (though I'm sure the priests engaged in pedophilia as well).

And the studies are pretty old.

Originally posted by Damo808


On the other hand you have young kids marrying old men in full religious ceremonies in Islam and its normality.


Hardly normal - I've never seen or heard of a case that involved this unless it was through some rare story on the news. Similar to how Christians in Utah marry little girls - not so common, but it happens every so often.

Also, individuals under 16 years old in the Christian United States often do get married to fully grown adults - and it's perfectly legal.

That old saying, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house" immediately comes to mind.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 24 December 2017 at 3:44am
Happy Christmas and Happy New Year




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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 24 December 2017 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Magister

Wasn't it only in the last few years that the RCC raised their minimum recommended age for consent from 10 or 12 years old to 18? Which explains why there are still Catholic nations with the age of consent as young as 12.



12 year olds marrying around the same age base is one thing. But it has never been Catholic culture for 50 60 and 70 year old men to marrying girls that age (or younger).


Originally posted by Magister

Interestingly, one of the countries with the HIGHEST age of consent is an Arab Muslim country at 21 years old. Anything before that is considered a minor and off-limits.


You've found one that doesn't allow old men to marry children then. Progress.


Originally posted by Magister

I think that's just plain silly, but it sure beats some other nations like the Philippines (12 years old), Nigeria (11 years old), Japan (13 years old), Italy (14 years old), etc. - the ages of many of the victims of sexual abuse in the church which often times gets wrongly labeled as 'pedophilia' (though I'm sure the priests engaged in pedophilia as well).


Your point ? Because in none of these countries do we see old men marrying prepubescent kids or those slightly older in official marriage ceremonies.


Originally posted by Magister

And the studies are pretty old.



Research from a decade ago is considered old by you only because you don't like the findings. I'm sure i could go back over as many of your previous posts on any subject and find data you've used to present your point of view research which dates older than 10 years.. I don't think anyone else considers research of statistical data that is ten years old as being unreliable when there is nothing (from you at least) to justify why the findings should dramatically have changed in such a short time against the grain of what the previous research has shown over a sustained period of time (longer than the age of the research by a factor of X 5).

Originally posted by Damo808


On the other hand you have young kids marrying old men in full religious ceremonies in Islam and its normality.


Originally posted by Magister

Hardly normal - I've never seen or heard of a case that involved this unless it was through some rare story on the news. Similar to how Christians in Utah marry little girls - not so common, but it happens every so often.



That's because you live in a country that makes such thing illegal. Not like these countries are shouting out'Get your 8yr old bride here!!!". In Utah is it common for 60 + year old men to marry prepubescent girls ? I don't think it is a much as you'd like that to be true to land any blow here... anywhere. Infact i'd go as far as saying such a thing has never occured.


Originally posted by Magister

Also, individuals under 16 years old in the Christian United States often do get married to fully grown adults - and it's perfectly legal.


That's just complete rubbish. You have stats there to show old menin the 50's 60's and 70's are marrying young girls under 16 ?


Originally posted by Magister

That old saying, "Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house" immediately comes to mind.



Just doesn't apply here though ehh. Not that any stone was thrown from me either. That would be Traveller.

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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 24 December 2017 at 10:35am
Happy Christmas and Happy New Year

-------------
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage




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