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Islam and Judaism

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
Forum Discription: Forum for people of various faiths to discuss and inquire about different religions
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32465
Printed Date: 19 June 2019 at 1:37am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Islam and Judaism
Posted By: The_Rock
Subject: Islam and Judaism
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 9:00pm
Judaism has religious law.

Islam has religious law.

How are they different? How are they similar?



Replies:
Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 1:13am
Many similarities and some differences:

Kosher and Halal food comes to mind

What else?



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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 9:18am
Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.

Why the law?

What is it's purpose in the Islamic view? Does it play a similar role as the law in Judaism?

If not, then why?


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 10:00am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.


Before the Law, I suggest we start with Faith first

Do we worship the same God?

Here is a Muslim answer:


Is Allah Jehovah, God of the Old Testament in the Bible?

http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/allah-jehovah-god-old-testament-bible/ - http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/allah-jehovah-god-old-testament-bible/




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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 11:24am
If they are the same source, one has to necessarily conclude that the religions should be the same.

We have to conclude that the source is different

For the reasons I have already provided it is my contention that whilst Muslims desire to worship the God of the Old Testament, they do not.

The central tenets of islam are sufficiently removed from the Bible that we can conclude that either Muhammad was inspired by a different entity or he wasnt inspired at all.

If we are to answer that question then we need to look into the practices of the religions, why certain practices exist and why they are different.



Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 2:01pm
OK, so that's the end of that discussion

Thank you Rock for your valuable contribution




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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 5:16pm
Not quite. I think that intentions define actions.

The intention of worshipping God is sufficient for us to conclude that despite the origins of Islam (from my perspective) Muslims do worship God though imperfectly, where there intention is to worship God and live in accordance with noachide tenets.

The parts of Islam that are out of line with biblical tradition, like jihad cannot be considered acts of worship.

This is not an extreme position.

It's clear that Muslims consider Christians to not be worshipping God, we are by your standards mushriks.

This isn't something that controversial to say even in today's PC climate.

If I believed Muhammad was a prophet of God I would be Muslim.

I am even handed with Muhammad, I think that by observing the fruit, Christianity is truth and Islam is imperfect.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 27 February 2018 at 5:17pm
I think that you want a universalist approach to religion.

That is an absurd position.


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 28 February 2018 at 2:46am
Originally posted by The_Rock

I think that you want a universalist approach to religion.



That is not the case, Rock.

What I want is for people to freely choose the religion they find most convincing, and that people live in peace despite their differences.

(For you is your religion, and for me is my religion) (Qur'an, 109:6)




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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 28 February 2018 at 7:51am
I agree. But you simply cannot ignore those differences.

It's impossible for example for us to accept that Muhammad was a prophet and that his inspiration was God, or else we would be Muslims.

Like wise I would be incorrect to think that Muslims consider me to be worshipping God when I pray to Jesus.


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 28 February 2018 at 9:08am
For each their religion, Rock




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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 28 February 2018 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.


Before the Law, I suggest we start with Faith first

Do we worship the same God?

Here is a Muslim answer:


Is Allah Jehovah, God of the Old Testament in the Bible?

http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/allah-jehovah-god-old-testament-bible/ - http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/allah-jehovah-god-old-testament-bible/


"Jehovah" is not a god or G-d or Ha'Shem from the "Original Testament" unless you clarify that the "OT" you refer to is the Christian one.  That term is certainly not in the Jewish Tanakh or Torah.  Ha'Shem is a term (one of 169 since the true name was lost) that can correctly be used for referring to the "G-d" of Judaism. 


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 10:22am
Originally posted by The_Rock

Not quite. I think that intentions define actions.

The intention of worshipping God is sufficient for us to conclude that despite the origins of Islam (from my perspective) Muslims do worship God though imperfectly, where there intention is to worship God and live in accordance with noachide tenets.

The parts of Islam that are out of line with biblical tradition, like jihad cannot be considered acts of worship.

This is not an extreme position.

It's clear that Muslims consider Christians to not be worshipping God, we are by your standards mushriks.

This isn't something that controversial to say even in today's PC climate.

If I believed Muhammad was a prophet of God I would be Muslim.

I am even handed with Muhammad, I think that by observing the fruit, Christianity is truth and Islam is imperfect.


I see it differently Rock.

First, let's not take any worldly premises as our fruits, meaning don't take economics, politics, education or any other such worldly affairs of the Christians or the Muslims to measure them. Take only faith in God as the fruit.

If we do that, taking in only faith as the fruit, then Christianity is not as good a tree as Islam.

Christianity is losing faith. There are just too many Christians on Pascal's wager.





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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 10:29am
Originally posted by The_Rock

It's impossible for example for us to accept that Muhammad was a prophet and that his inspiration was God, or else we would be Muslims.


You can't say us or we in that statement.

I am sure you know that we get a lot of converts from Christians.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by The_Rock

If they are the same source, one has to necessarily conclude that the religions should be the same.

We have to conclude that the source is different

For the reasons I have already provided it is my contention that whilst Muslims desire to worship the God of the Old Testament, they do not.

The central tenets of islam are sufficiently removed from the Bible that we can conclude that either Muhammad was inspired by a different entity or he wasnt inspired at all.

If we are to answer that question then we need to look into the practices of the religions, why certain practices exist and why they are different.



First, Judaism is a religion for a particular ethnic group, the Jews, the chosen people. Islam is for all mankind.

We have once touched on this, tenets but it was on faith, not Islam. The tenets of Islam is a new thing, meaning it only came at the time of Prophet Muhammad.

As for the tenets of faith, you will find that it is relevant even to your faith. Let me list them for you again. Like us, you must also have faith in these or you cannot call yourself a believer (Mukmin)

1. God
2. Judgement day
3. Prophets
4. Revelations
5. Angels

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Damo808
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Traveller



If we do that, taking in only faith as the fruit, then Christianity is not as good a tree as Islam.



Christianity is losing faith. There are just too many Christians on Pascal's wager.





Freedom gives most people choice. Its easier in may ways to live life as a non religious person because there are no constraints to how one wishes to lead their life so long as it fits within what is lawful in the eyes of the state. Christianity does not demand that those who come to realise they no longer believe are put to death.
There are no Christian religious police in the West to knock on the doors of suspected apostates to tyrannically subject them to 'reconditioning' or worse death. For indeed such hostility and fear of exposure and ostracization predicates how a society behaves openly. On the surface the vast majority would evoke and demonstrate piety despite what their private conscience believes.

Islam (IMO) has shaped much of the Muslim world through fear. Like the North Korean masses who gather in their hundreds of thousands, when they are forced to adulate their 'Great Leader' or face suspicion of decent and the horrors that befall that. How many of those hundreds of thousands of smiling and 'adoring' faces have gritted teeth behind those lips..


To say Christianity is 'loosing faith' is because there is openness about it without risk.

Not so with Islam hence many ex-Muslims remain silent and keep their lack of faith in Islam secret as well as what new faith they have adopted .




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out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by The_Rock

If they are the same source, one has to necessarily conclude that the religions should be the same.

We have to conclude that the source is different

For the reasons I have already provided it is my contention that whilst Muslims desire to worship the God of the Old Testament, they do not.

The central tenets of islam are sufficiently removed from the Bible that we can conclude that either Muhammad was inspired by a different entity or he wasnt inspired at all.

If we are to answer that question then we need to look into the practices of the religions, why certain practices exist and why they are different.



First, Judaism is a religion for a particular ethnic group, the Jews, the chosen people. Islam is for all mankind.

We have once touched on this, tenets but it was on faith, not Islam. The tenets of Islam is a new thing, meaning it only came at the time of Prophet Muhammad.



You are dead wrong about Judaism, Traveller.  Judaism is a religion and way of life open to all mankind - it just takes longer to "join", i.e. study. study. study.
 


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 08 March 2018 at 4:43pm
It's important to consider religious axioms and the cause and effect of religious ideologies.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism start from 3 very different axioms.

What is the purpose of life for the Muslim, the Jew and the Christian?

The Muslim lives to pass the test that is life and depends on the mercy of God to pass this test, with the reward being a next existence of pleasures.

The Christian is exhorted to serve his fellow man, not to worry too much about his many sins because Jesus paid for them.
The reward is a life with Jesus in eternity, the kingdom of God.

The Jew lives life in accordance with the mitzvah because that is what God revealed to his ancestors. There's no real mention of a heaven or hell. It's all about making the here and now better by living in accordance with the laws.

IMHO only Christianity is a teaching of how best to live. And that is, to live a life devoted to the service of others.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 12:58am
Originally posted by Damo808


Islam (IMO) has shaped much of the Muslim world through fear.


The only fear I know of that shaped the Muslim world is fear of God.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Corinna

You are dead wrong about Judaism, Traveller.  Judaism is a religion and way of life open to all mankind - it just takes longer to "join", i.e. study. study. study.  


I'm not sure of Judaism today propagate their religion. That's for another topic.

But the children of Israel were the chosen people and all their prophets were sent to guide them only. Ergo, all the commandments were specific to them only. Example, everybody else can eat shellfish except the children of Israel.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:27am
Originally posted by The_Rock

It's important to consider religious axioms and the cause and effect of religious ideologies.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism start from 3 very different axioms.

What is the purpose of life for the Muslim, the Jew and the Christian?

The Muslim lives to pass the test that is life and depends on the mercy of God to pass this test, with the reward being a next existence of pleasures.

The Christian is exhorted to serve his fellow man, not to worry too much about his many sins because Jesus paid for them.
The reward is a life with Jesus in eternity, the kingdom of God.

The Jew lives life in accordance with the mitzvah because that is what God revealed to his ancestors. There's no real mention of a heaven or hell. It's all about making the here and now better by living in accordance with the laws.

IMHO only Christianity is a teaching of how best to live. And that is, to live a life devoted to the service of others.


Ask Brother Waheed here, coz he is an imam, of the verse from the Quran that he must read at the end of the sermon on Friday.

It is a clear commandment. And it is on how to, what you would call "serve others". It is a commandment that is drummed into us every week. Imagine that.


BEHOLD, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards [one's] fellowmen; and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy; [and] He exhorts you [repeatedly] so that you might bear [all this] in mind.
(16:90)

Yes, every Friday the imam will read that verse out loud to us. Ask Bro Waheed.

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 8:02am
Yes I'm sure there are elements of requiring service in Islam, just as they are present in Judaism.

But essentially these faiths are primarily concerned with one's own salvation, a selfish approach to getting ones reward.

The idea that your life only has purpose in the service of others is uniquely Christian.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 09 March 2018 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

You are dead wrong about Judaism, Traveller.  Judaism is a religion and way of life open to all mankind - it just takes longer to "join", i.e. study. study. study.  


I'm not sure of Judaism today propagate their religion. That's for another topic.

But the children of Israel were the chosen people and all their prophets were sent to guide them only. Ergo, all the commandments were specific to them only. Example, everybody else can eat shellfish except the children of Israel.



How many of the 613 commandments (guides for living) do you  follow, Traveller?  No normal person now, then or in the future can fulfill all 613 and stay sane.  They aren't meant as a judgement of  man's behavior for a heaven or hell situation.  That is not the focus of living Jewishly.  Helping all of mankind is the focus which we did, do and will continue to do. 

Shellfish (and pork) had directly to do with a lack of refrigeration and food inspectors in the time and place when those 613 guides were given to mankind (all of mankind with hardheaded Jews as an example or experimental group per se). 

Being Jewish is not a race, it was a tribe.  They were learning to deal with what became tribal laws and directions for survival when those commandments were given to mankind, all of mankind as it was known at the time.  There was much rivalry among the tribes during that age of man and that includes Arab tribes, many of whom rejected following any, much less all of the 613 commandments.

Like I said earlier, study, study, study .. esp Ancient Middle Eastern history.  What is scribed in Torah and Tanakh are the history of those early, hardheaded Jews in their learning process of what G-d provided to mankind.  If they could learn, anybody can.

BTW, we allow alcohol in moderation.  Why don't Muslims? 


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 12:11am
Originally posted by Corinna

How many of the 613 commandments (guides for living) do you  follow, Traveller?  No normal person now, then or in the future can fulfill all 613 and stay sane.  They aren't meant as a judgement of  man's behavior for a heaven or hell situation.  That is not the focus of living Jewishly.  Helping all of mankind is the focus which we did, do and will continue to do.  Shellfish (and pork) had directly to do with a lack of refrigeration and food inspectors in the time and place when those 613 guides were given to mankind (all of mankind with hardheaded Jews as an example or experimental group per se).  Being Jewish is not a race, it was a tribe.  They were learning to deal with what became tribal laws and directions for survival when those commandments were given to mankind, all of mankind as it was known at the time.  There was much rivalry among the tribes during that age of man and that includes Arab tribes, many of whom rejected following any, much less all of the 613 commandments.Like I said earlier, study, study, study .. esp Ancient Middle Eastern history.  What is scribed in Torah and Tanakh are the history of those early, hardheaded Jews in their learning process of what G-d provided to mankind.  If they could learn, anybody can. BTW, we allow alcohol in moderation.  Why don't Muslims? 


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 10 March 2018 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

How many of the 613 commandments (guides for living) do you  follow, Traveller?  No normal person now, then or in the future can fulfill all 613 and stay sane.  They aren't meant as a judgement of  man's behavior for a heaven or hell situation.  That is not the focus of living Jewishly.  Helping all of mankind is the focus which we did, do and will continue to do.  Shellfish (and pork) had directly to do with a lack of refrigeration and food inspectors in the time and place when those 613 guides were given to mankind (all of mankind with hardheaded Jews as an example or experimental group per se).  Being Jewish is not a race, it was a tribe.  They were learning to deal with what became tribal laws and directions for survival when those commandments were given to mankind, all of mankind as it was known at the time.  There was much rivalry among the tribes during that age of man and that includes Arab tribes, many of whom rejected following any, much less all of the 613 commandments.Like I said earlier, study, study, study .. esp Ancient Middle Eastern history.  What is scribed in Torah and Tanakh are the history of those early, hardheaded Jews in their learning process of what G-d provided to mankind.  If they could learn, anybody can. BTW, we allow alcohol in moderation.  Why don't Muslims? 


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.



Well, that is wrong but it makes a good story that the uneducated, unenlightened might believe.


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 12:24am
Originally posted by Corinna


Originally posted by Traveller


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.

Well, that is wrong but it makes a good story that the uneducated, unenlightened might believe.


Ok. You're free to believe your version.

Reading what the Messiah said about them in the Gospels, it's easier to believe my version.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 11 March 2018 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna


Originally posted by Traveller


We are told the reason why shellfish was prohibited to the children of Israel was due to their own doings, breaking the Sabbath. They tried to circumvent the Sabbath by putting the nets just before Sabbath and letting their nets do all the work for them during Sabbath and then retrieving the nets just as soon as Sabbath ended.

Well, that is wrong but it makes a good story that the uneducated, unenlightened might believe.


Ok. You're free to believe your version.

Reading what the Messiah said about them in the Gospels, it's easier to believe my version.



Your "messiah" didn't know, much less honor, Jewish ethnics, religious beliefs or history so don't quote it as such.  Pity.



Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 12 March 2018 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Corinna

Your "messiah" didn't know, much less honor, Jewish ethnics, religious beliefs or history so don't quote it as such.  Pity.


It's The Messiah, the one the Jews prayed for and still praying for till today.

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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 13 March 2018 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

Your "messiah" didn't know, much less honor, Jewish ethnics, religious beliefs or history so don't quote it as such.  Pity.


It's The Messiah, the one the Jews prayed for and still praying for till today.


Once again, you are very wrong to say Jews prayed for this messiah thing then and now.  Ours is Mashiah, a leader, a soldier - not a man who wondered around preaching stuff to people or bringing them back to life.  Quite a different meaning for Jews, Traveller.  As I've said, educate yourself from the source, not some altered text or by people who don't know their toe from a hole in the ground. 



Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 13 March 2018 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Corinna


Once again, you are very wrong to say Jews prayed for this messiah thing then and now.  Ours is Mashiah, a leader, a soldier - not a man who wondered around preaching stuff to people or bringing them back to life.  Quite a different meaning for Jews, Traveller.  As I've said, educate yourself from the source, not some altered text or by people who don't know their toe from a hole in the ground. 


sounds like muhamad to me.


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 14 March 2018 at 2:41am
Originally posted by The_Rock


sounds like muhamad to me.


Yes:

http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/who-is-muhammadim-in-the-song-of-solomon/ - http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/who-is-muhammadim-in-the-song-of-solomon/



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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Corinna

Once again, you are very wrong to say Jews prayed for this messiah thing then and now.  Ours is Mashiah, a leader, a soldier - not a man who wondered around preaching stuff to people or bringing them back to life.  Quite a different meaning for Jews, Traveller.  As I've said, educate yourself from the source, not some altered text or by people who don't know their toe from a hole in the ground. 


I get it that you deny Jesus is the Messiah.

We Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah sent to the Jewish people.



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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Corinna


Once again, you are very wrong to say Jews prayed for this messiah thing then and now.  Ours is Mashiah, a leader, a soldier - not a man who wondered around preaching stuff to people or bringing them back to life.  Quite a different meaning for Jews, Traveller.  As I've said, educate yourself from the source, not some altered text or by people who don't know their toe from a hole in the ground. 


sounds like muhamad to me.


A Jewish person, Rock.  That hardly describes the Jewish mashiah.  Also, mashiah in ancient Hebrew/Aramaic has a totally different meaning than messiah.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 15 March 2018 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Corinna

Once again, you are very wrong to say Jews prayed for this messiah thing then and now.  Ours is Mashiah, a leader, a soldier - not a man who wondered around preaching stuff to people or bringing them back to life.  Quite a different meaning for Jews, Traveller.  As I've said, educate yourself from the source, not some altered text or by people who don't know their toe from a hole in the ground. 


I get it that you deny Jesus is the Messiah.

We Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah sent to the Jewish people.



Travellar, in Jewish history no person like the concept of Jesus existed.  That was a post Jewish concept developed by those who  became Christians.  It/he has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, denial or anything else considered.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 4:25pm
I think there is a complex relationship between Jesus and judaism.

On the one hand clearly appealed to a jewish audience.

But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.

They wanted Simon bar Kokhba.

Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven. To this day, its something that Jews simply don't understand.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

I think there is a complex relationship between Jesus and judaism.

On the one hand clearly appealed to a jewish audience.

But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.

They wanted Simon bar Kokhba.

Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven. To this day, its something that Jews simply don't understand.


Ah contraire'.  We understand only too well.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 16 March 2018 at 9:07pm
Uh no you don't.. That's why you are a Jew... No more to say.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Uh no you don't.. That's why you are a Jew... No more to say.


Ummm, you do not know my mind or education, Rock.  You like to think you do but you don't know squat about religious Jews.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 2:20pm
What I know is that you haven't heard the message of Jesus.
It's just as simple as that.

Live a life of service to mankind. Don't worry about your sins, I've handled that part for you.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 2:25pm
That's why I say that Judaism and Islam are similar, but not Christianity.

Your religions are about serving yourselves in some way.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 17 March 2018 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

That's why I say that Judaism and Islam are similar, but not Christianity.

Your religions are about serving yourselves in some way.


See, you know nothing about Judaism.  Judaism is ALL about serving mankind, making life better for all of mankind which is, in essence, serving G-d.  That is why we have no heaven/hell concept with all the threats your people have.  If we serve mankind, we enter whatever an afterlife may be.  We will know what it is if and when we get there.  Judaism 101


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 18 March 2018 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.

Why the law?

What is it's purpose in the Islamic view? Does it play a similar role as the law in Judaism?

If not, then why?


There are two main law 'types' in Judaism, one of which carried over into Islam.

In Judaism, there are the sacrificial laws (which the NT claims was done away with), and then there were the laws of the nation such as how to deal with slaves, divorces, etc. - which seems to have carried over to Islam for the most part. The sacrificial laws were only for the Jews, not for us.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Traveller
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 3:11am
Originally posted by The_Rock

I think there is a complex relationship between Jesus and judaism.

On the one hand clearly appealed to a jewish audience.

But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.

They wanted Simon bar Kokhba.

Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven. To this day, its something that Jews simply don't understand.


Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof - Matthew 21

Jesus was referring to the earthly kingdom of God.

You said, "But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.". That is not it. Who knows better what the Jews need? The Jews or God? The rejection of the Messiah clearly shows the Jews had no faith in God. They wanted a glamorous messiah, one that will enter the city on a chariot ala Caesar. Instead, God sent Jesus into the city on a donkey. They could not believe such a man can bring back the glory to the Jews. They had no faith in God.

That is what it is all about isn't it Rock? Faith.




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In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Corinna


See, you know nothing about Judaism.  Judaism is ALL about serving mankind, making life better for all of mankind which is, in essence, serving G-d.


Agreed


  That is why we have no heaven/hell concept with all the threats your people have.


Agreed


  If we serve mankind, we enter whatever an afterlife may be.  We will know what it is if and when we get there.  Judaism 101


Agreed

The difference is that judaism is concerned with the person serving/pleasing God by adhering to a set of laws (laws in a book) prima facie because that is what is revealed.

Whereas Christianity is concerned with the person serving /pleasing God by serving man with the (laws of the heart) because that is what is revealed in the nature of Christ.

It is open to interpretation that jewish law is meant to serve mankind. We think that is the purpose of the law, but the nature of the revelation is sufficient unto itself without attributing the benefit of serving mankind.

In christianity the very essence is serving mankind, the law was meant to serve man and not the other way around. The law is not sufficient unto itself, although to this day jews will argue that the law is sufficient unto itself, that the intention behind the law is the wisdom of God and the domain of God, the sages can expound on that wisdom, but it isnt necessary to actually understand it, it is sufficient to simply follow the law.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.

Why the law?

What is it's purpose in the Islamic view? Does it play a similar role as the law in Judaism?

If not, then why?


There are two main law 'types' in Judaism, one of which carried over into Islam.

In Judaism, there are the sacrificial laws (which the NT claims was done away with), and then there were the laws of the nation such as how to deal with slaves, divorces, etc. - which seems to have carried over to Islam for the most part. The sacrificial laws were only for the Jews, not for us.


That's not how either jews or christians see it.

I will speak for christians, that we dont see it that way.

The jewess can answer for the jews.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Traveller


Jesus was referring to the earthly kingdom of God.


Yes indeed. But you should ponder this then -
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."


You said, "But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.". That is not it. Who knows better what the Jews need? The Jews or God? The rejection of the Messiah clearly shows the Jews had no faith in God. They wanted a glamorous messiah, one that will enter the city on a chariot ala Caesar. Instead, God sent Jesus into the city on a donkey. They could not believe such a man can bring back the glory to the Jews. They had no faith in God.

That is what it is all about isn't it Rock? Faith.


No, they had plenty of faith, the kingdom of God is the body of believers, the christian ummah, a nation of peace. It is not a political entity, where God reigns no man can reign.

Jews were warned to not take a king by God, He told them that things would go badly if they were to take on a king.

It led to much destruction. Judges served them better.

Where God rules there can be no Khalifah.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by The_Rock

I think there is a complex relationship between Jesus and judaism.

On the one hand clearly appealed to a jewish audience.

But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.

They wanted Simon bar Kokhba.

Jesus offered the Kingdom of Heaven. To this day, its something that Jews simply don't understand.


Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof - Matthew 21

Jesus was referring to the earthly kingdom of God.

You said, "But clearly Jesus wasnt offering jews the kind of messiah they wanted.". That is not it. Who knows better what the Jews need? The Jews or God? The rejection of the Messiah clearly shows the Jews had no faith in God. They wanted a glamorous messiah, one that will enter the city on a chariot ala Caesar. Instead, God sent Jesus into the city on a donkey. They could not believe such a man can bring back the glory to the Jews. They had no faith in God.

That is what it is all about isn't it Rock? Faith.


The New Testament has nothing to do with Jews.  The Jews in those stories are just characters in a story made up to satisfy those who wrote it, read it and believe it.

The Jewish mashiah is a leader be it king, homeless person, a soldier, chef, rabbi or whatever comes at the time he/she/it is destined to come.  Really quoting NT about Jews, Judaism and Jewish laws and traditions is way off the track.  We, our ethnicity, religion, laws, commands, traditions, etc. are contained ONLY in Torah and Tanakh and much was discussed thoroughly over the centuries and recorded in Talmud.

I will say this again:  You must study Jewish writings to know about Jews, our religion, our traditions, history, ethnicity, mistakes, wars, helping the world, etc.  It is thoroughly discussed there, in Talmud and in many commentaries.  Otherwise you are in a world of assumptions, you are just playing with stories, suppositions, assimilations, lies, half-truths, etc.  and it is not right to do that to something that is so well documented.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 19 March 2018 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by The_Rock



The difference is that judaism is concerned with the person serving/pleasing God by adhering to a set of laws (laws in a book) prima facie because that is what is revealed.

Whereas Christianity is concerned with the person serving /pleasing God by serving man with the (laws of the heart) because that is what is revealed in the nature of Christ.

It is open to interpretation that jewish law is meant to serve mankind. We think that is the purpose of the law, but the nature of the revelation is sufficient unto itself without attributing the benefit of serving mankind.

In christianity the very essence is serving mankind, the law was meant to serve man and not the other way around. The law is not sufficient unto itself, although to this day jews will argue that the law is sufficient unto itself, that the intention behind the law is the wisdom of God and the domain of God, the sages can expound on that wisdom, but it isnt necessary to actually understand it, it is sufficient to simply follow the law.


One thing, Rock, those things you call "laws" are actually 613 commandments.  No person can keep all 613 and remain sane.  G-d does not expect humankind to be perfect in any way, shape or form.  We do the best we can and go forward with life as best we can.  No one is keeping score.  Again there is a big difference between a law and a command, at least in Judaism there is.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 20 March 2018 at 1:40pm
You can call them what you want.

The point I'm making is that those commandments are observed because that is what is revealed.

Their intent is a secondary consideration, if at all it is a consideration.

Where as for the Christian the service of mankind is the commandment, and how we achieve this is guided by scripture.

So if it served man to only eat kosher food, then tomorrow such a thing would be binding on the christian.

For us Jesus is the way to live. A life of service, a light to the world and we obey the commandments where they further that purpose.


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 04 April 2018 at 8:51am
Originally posted by The_Rock

You can call them what you want.  I call them what they are.  Big difference.

The point I'm making is that those commandments are observed because that is what is revealed.  Yes, they are - all 613, not just 10 picked to observe.

Their intent is a secondary consideration, if at all it is a consideration.  Hummm, I would say the intent and benefit of all 613 commandments is top consideration as they guide humankind in how to live according to the One who gave them to mankind. 

Where as for the Christian the service of mankind is the commandment, and how we achieve this is guided by scripture.  Odd you say this because that is the way it is seen and observed in Judaism.  It is not just a Christian thing.

So if it served man to only eat kosher food, then tomorrow such a thing would be binding on the christian.  It would only be binding on Christians if they decided to observe that commandment according to the time, place and reasons given in history.

For us Jesus is the way to live. A life of service, a light to the world and we obey the commandments where they further that purpose.
  So?  He supposedly was an 'observant Jew' and, as such, would have been obedient to the 613 commandments, not just a cherry picked 10 or 12 commandments.  Why is his example not followed in Christianity?

BTW, just got back from Israel.  Searched all over for the Easter Bunny and did not find him/her/it.  Had a ton of wonderful Bedouin, Arab, Jewish, Chinese, Italian foods!!!  Brought home home grown figs and dates for my Arab Muslim friends.  Yes, they are Kosher.  LOL 


Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 04 April 2018 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Corinna

So?  He supposedly was an 'observant Jew' and, as such, would have been obedient to the 613 commandments, not just a cherry picked 10 or 12 commandments.  Why is his example not followed in Christianity?
 


It was not cherry-picking, Corinna

You may find the answer to your question in the Qur'an, as God, by His Mercy, reduced some of the restrictions imposed on the Jews in the past when He sent Jesus, peace be upon him, to guide the Lost Sheep of Israel.

This is the Qur'anic verse, where Jesus speaks to the Jews saying:

"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you.

And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."


http://quran.com/3/50 - https://quran.com/3/50



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Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 04 April 2018 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Originally posted by Corinna

So?  He supposedly was an 'observant Jew' and, as such, would have been obedient to the 613 commandments, not just a cherry picked 10 or 12 commandments.  Why is his example not followed in Christianity?
 


It was not cherry-picking, Corinna

You may find the answer to your question in the Qur'an, as God, by His Mercy, reduced some of the restrictions imposed on the Jews in the past when He sent Jesus, peace be upon him, to guide the Lost Sheep of Israel.

This is the Qur'anic verse, where Jesus speaks to the Jews saying:

"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you.

And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."


http://quran.com/3/50 - https://quran.com/3/50



Yes, it is cherry picking. 

If this so-called Jesus person was truly a observant Jew, he would not have turned his back on preceding "laws" that were changed by a fictitious (to him/them) god figure.  "Jesus" did not have permission to do that nor did anyone else.   Historical facts cannot be changed by man and certainly not HaShem's commandments.  That "man" has done such makes this law change even more suspicious. 

Sorry, I can't agree with you on this item.  It is so sacrilegious, surely you, as a religious person, sees that. 


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 04 April 2018 at 1:57pm

Ponder this ....

"The man who regards life as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life."

--- Albert Einstein




Posted By: Al-Cordoby
Date Posted: 04 April 2018 at 5:01pm
Sister Corrina, Divine Law changed in some aspects and evolved from the time of Adam and Noah to the time of Abraham and Moses

Do you agree with that?



-------------
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

http://cortoby.blogspot.com/ - My Blog
http://www.muslimheritage.com/ - Muslim Heritage



Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 04 April 2018 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister

Originally posted by The_Rock

Well I was hoping for a more detailed comparison from an Islamic view.

Why the law?

What is it's purpose in the Islamic view? Does it play a similar role as the law in Judaism?

If not, then why?


There are two main law 'types' in Judaism, one of which carried over into Islam.

In Judaism, there are the sacrificial laws (which the NT claims was done away with), and then there were the laws of the nation such as how to deal with slaves, divorces, etc. - which seems to have carried over to Islam for the most part. The sacrificial laws were only for the Jews, not for us.


That's not how either jews or christians see it.

I will speak for christians, that we dont see it that way.

The jewess can answer for the jews.


You guys can see it however way you guys want, but I'm saying that you can separate the laws into two, one is sacrificial and the others are more social. Muslims and Jews share a lot in common when it comes to the social based laws, but we don't have the sacrificial laws Moses (as) brought to the Jews.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Corinna
Date Posted: 05 April 2018 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Sister Corrina, Divine Law changed in some aspects and evolved from the time of Adam and Noah to the time of Abraham and Moses

Do you agree with that?



No, I  don't. 

The "laws" under discussion here are the ones given to Moses by HaShem, all 613 of them.  That was after Adom's and Noah's time. BTW, do not forget about the Noahide laws, that are still used today.



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