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Islam and equality

Printed From: WhyIslam.org
Category: General
Forum Name: InterReligious Dialogue
Forum Discription: Forum for people of various faiths to discuss and inquire about different religions
URL: http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32701
Printed Date: 19 June 2019 at 1:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Islam and equality
Posted By: The_Rock
Subject: Islam and equality
Date Posted: 03 November 2018 at 4:42pm
I'm curious to know if Muslims on this forum believe that a legitimate Islamic state is desirable in this and age.

Let's assume that the state is run on Islamic principles.

Would that be a desirable thing to you on a personal level?



Replies:
Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 20 November 2018 at 11:37pm
Yes, it is.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 23 November 2018 at 2:47pm
I think that is a legitimate aspiration and one that Muslims ought to strive to attain. A middle eastern caliphate is good for the world.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 24 November 2018 at 7:57am
Would the creation of this state cause muslims to want to immigrate en masses to this country?

Something like what happened with Israel
The existence of a Muslim state would allow muslims to immigrate there as opposed to the west.

It would also solve the immigrant issues we are experiencing.

Itís becoming more and more clear that western Europeís immigration experiment has failed.

The solution is a caliphate.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 24 November 2018 at 10:30pm
I think the Muslims coming to the West are less likely to want to live in an Islamic state. I think they are generally more secular and want more of a Western lifestyle than an Islamic one. I can't speak for every single one, just going by my experience, but this is what I see.

But I'm also against foreign migration to the West in such numbers. Europe is becoming less and less European with every passing year. This I don't agree with.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 25 November 2018 at 2:36pm
I have continued problems with muslims who wish to bring their muslim identity to the political forefront.

An islamic political identity is irrelevant in the west.

But we get muslims acting more and more to advocate for "muslims".

Western muslims have NO interest in assimilating.

They want islam to be part of the tapestry of western identities.

AND I dont mean their food and art.

I mean they want us to allow them to bring their culture here.

The west is uninterested in islamic culture being part of the west.

If you want the culture go back to an islamic state.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 27 November 2018 at 1:54pm
Rock, I have to disagree there. I don't see Muslims trying to bring their "religion" over to the West. Perhaps their particular cultures to a limited extent, but not their religion.

Most Muslims I knew who are from abroad seem to be semi-religious at best. Yes, some are very religious, but I'm speaking to what I see on average (or rather, more often than not). They tend to be "regular" people, for lack of a better word. Other than going to mosque instead of church, and getting meatballs on their pizza instead of pepperoni, they typically can pass for just about any other immigrant that comes here.

Maybe it's different in Canada and Europe. In the US, you still run into religious ones from the other side, but I don't think any of those religious ones are trying to negatively change America.

The sad thing for Islam, I think, is that Western culture is diluting the intensity of faith of Muslims.

But to be honest, from what I see in Europe, it seems the Muslims going to Europe are even more secular than the ones coming to the US. And even the accusations I'm hearing about Muslims through pro-Right media, such as Muslims forming street gangs, becoming rapists, muggers, vandals, etc., it seems they are picking up Western practices. You can't be a religious Muslim and rape someone or vandalize or mug someone...these practices are anti-Islamic. So I'm guessing that the word "Muslim" is here used more to describe someone that's from a traditionally Muslim culture but who may or may not be following the religion.

Mind you, Rock, I'm not against any culture coming to the West and introducing their own cultural ideas to us. It might be something we would like to adopt. Western culture is ever-changing. Just 100 years ago, American culture was more similar to Muslim culture than it is now. Cultures change. We pick what we like and discard what we don't. If there are things from Arab or other Muslim nations' cultures that we like, then we can adopt it. For instance, the Pakistani obsession over higher education in the sciences (e.g. medicine, engineering, computer science, etc) seems to be something more of us Americans should be obsessed with. The whole of the Muslim world has a very deep respect for the matriarchs of the family and keeping family together through thick and thin - something the West is no longer familiar with. I've yet to run into a Muslim family where two brothers don't talk, or where a wedding excludes a bunch of cousins because they just lost touch or whatever.

These are good qualities that we would definitely enjoy here in the West, and I'm sure you'd agree.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 27 November 2018 at 2:33pm
I don't care what people want to do in their homes.

I am talking about the public sphere.

Like the muslims who approached Maxime Bernier in Canada and demanded what he would do for muslims.

His answer was this I am elected to do things for Canadians", Canada provides freedom, equality and right to own private property where you can do what you want within the confines of the law.

The Muslims were affronted and demanded that his caucus eject him.

It affronts me that muslims think their identity as muslims trumps their identity as Canadians.

Why dont they go back to their countries where they can be muslim and see if the three things that Canada provides arent worth having?

To me those 3 things are a lot, they are worth dying for, and they dont understand this because in their societies they havent bled for hundreds of years to have freedom, equality and the right to private property under the law.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 27 November 2018 at 2:39pm
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/tory-mp-bernier-criticized-for-saying-more-diversity-will-destroy-what-makes-canada-great-1.4050494


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 27 November 2018 at 9:30pm
That's not the Muslims' fault. That's Canada's fault. And America is following you guys right into that lizard's hole.

It's this current generation's mentality that certain groups deserve special rights because they're not members of the majority. This is insane, and it's just getting worse and worse. Muslims who demand his ejection are just using the same techniques and tactics that entitled left-wing extremists are using. Same happens here in the US with other things, depending on how you feel about a specific 'victim' group. I see nothing wrong with his response based on your paraphrasing. He's the MP for Canadians, not Muslims or Jews or Christians. The Muslims there are jumping on the pop culture politics that got Trump elected.

As for diversity...I agree and disagree with some of the notions brought about by people I would readily call "White Nationalists". While they take an extreme stance against diversity, I do see some of their points and why they respond as they do.

Diversity in and of itself is not a good thing the way we're being made to believe. There's nothing fantastic about being different in and of itself. It is actually damaging if the differences are so great that certain elements within the greater society are demanding their version of the differences be given priority over everyone else's. However, I do promote diversity - I think that everyone should be welcome to our nations and given a fair shake. But when people start feeling ENTITLED to our lands and our civilization, that's where problems start.

In this regard, Rock, I would agree with you - assimilate or leave. I'm not saying women shouldn't wear hijabs, or Muslims shouldn't pray in public or anything of that sort - that's freedom of religion and is allowed for everyone. I'm talking about creating divisions within a nation, demanding special rights (e.g., "Treat us better because we belong to such-and-such group!"), or even showing hostility to the host nation and its members. I didn't like the approach of Muslims like Sarsour, for instance. She played with identity politics and I felt that led to more divisions than helped.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 28 November 2018 at 7:37pm
What is wrong with white nationalism? I support the creation of a state for white, European Christians.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 29 November 2018 at 4:28pm
I had a much more lengthy response, but I'm afraid it might go against community guidelines, so I'm going to paraphrase what I was typing originally:

White Nationalism makes no sense.

European nationalism, on the other hand, makes more sense and I can support that. Nations in Europe are entitled to preserve their heritage and culture and civilization just as every other ethnic nation is permitted to. But it wasn't the world's decision for Europe to take in all those migrants. It was Europeans trying to be progressive who made that decision. To this day, they consistently vote for progressive leaders. They protest the arrests of migrant criminals. In the UK, they were hiding the crimes done by Indian/Pakistani gangs so as not to appear offensive or racist. The Europeans don't want nationalism. White guys a half-world away want it.

We were having somewhat similar problems here in the US with illegal migrants coming here in hordes, forming gangs, committing crimes, etc. Then the majority of Americans of all colors/ethnicities got sick and tired of it and voted for Trump - the only president who wouldn't suffer severe repercussions if he spoke frankly against the overly progressive movements in our nation. So now we have armed soldiers on our border with orders to shoot those trying to illegally come here (granted, the migrants have to throw a rock first lol), and we're rounding up everyone who was here illegally all this time and sending them back whether they're from Latin America or Europe or anywhere else in the world. This isn't their country and they need to respect our borders and laws.

But America was always inherently diverse as a nation. Since its earliest days, there were multiple races and ethnic groups present. So I'm fine with America allowing people from everywhere in the world as long as they come legally and contribute to our nation and society. Illegally coming here is out of the question in my view. No one is entitled to America except those who are legal citizens (native or non-native). But everyone should be entitled to be candidates for American citizenship regardless of homeland or mother tongue as long as they're not themselves criminals, rapists, etc.

How do you define white nationalism? Does your definition overlap with my own definition for European nationalism? I'm assuming you would include Canada and the US as white nations (which I wouldn't, despite majorities and contributions).

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 29 November 2018 at 4:31pm
In short, I would've been ok with European nationalism if it was a few decades ago. But Europe made the choice to become multicultural and diverse, and for that reason I think it's too late for Europe and I wouldn't support European nationalism anymore for the simple reason that it already opened its doors to the world and there are substantially large subcultures growing and taking over. Leave them be. Europe made its bed, now it has to lay in it. You can't forcibly remove people that were allowed there originally. It's their home now. Now the Europeans need to learn to play nice or to out-reproduce other ethnic groups if they don't want to become a thing of history.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 29 November 2018 at 9:56pm
This is a very complex subject.

Suffice it to say that I would vote to preserve the judeo christian largely European culture of north america.

I am uninterested in anyone being here that wants to change that, and I am happy to support anyone who doesnt want to change that.

This does pose a conundrum for muslims, because literally I am saying I am not going to be happy until you are like us, and we know the quran warns muslims against that.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 30 November 2018 at 4:11am
Rock, your post would concern Atheists, Agnostics, Secularists, and just about anyone who isn't Jewish or Christian (and your particular brand of Christians, I'm sure).

The US was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It was founded on secular principles. Many of our founding fathers were themselves Deists, not Christians. Even one of our nation's earliest documents makes it clear that the US is NOT a Christian nation or a nation following any other religion.

Now, if you're talking about culture, cultures change and there's not much we can do about it. Just 100 years ago, it was a matter of fact that men beat their wives - it was joked about in advertisements. Just a few decades ago, the legal marriageable age for females was 6 years old in some states. Smoking has went out of fashion. Other subcultures rose up. Cultures change, and we need to accept that fact.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:30pm
None of those people, are opposed to integration. The Atheist and agnostic still possess a christian mind.

I am not opposed to christian and jewish (historically christian, not converts) immigrants from any part of the world.

Non Christian Asian immigrants will quickly change behaviour and views to fit in with the host countries.

Non Christian South Asians are far more resistant to integration whether they are Sikh or Hindus. Im less convinced of the value of Hindu immigrants to this country.

Middle Eastern and South Asian Muslims I think are just too alien to live in our societies.

There are deep fundamental differences that cannot be bridged. You mentioned Linda Sarsour, and you are right to mention her, because here is a born and raised American whose allegiance is primarily to the Ummah and who truly would be better off in a Khilafat.

The question for every muslim parent living in the west ought to be, is my child going to make the choices I made?

The answer is , there is a very good chance your child may choose as Linda Sarsour has to hate her own country and compatriots.


Posted By: The_Rock
Date Posted: 03 December 2018 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Magister


The US was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It was founded on secular principles. Many of our founding fathers were themselves Deists, not Christians. Even one of our nation's earliest documents makes it clear that the US is NOT a Christian nation or a nation following any other religion.


This isnt about theology but the culture of Christianity.


Now, if you're talking about culture, cultures change and there's not much we can do about it. Just 100 years ago, it was a matter of fact that men beat their wives - it was joked about in advertisements. Just a few decades ago, the legal marriageable age for females was 6 years old in some states. Smoking has went out of fashion. Other subcultures rose up. Cultures change, and we need to accept that fact.


Cultures do change, however, not all change is good.
I am trying to actively advocate against a cultural change that I think would be bad for our nations.

Dont get me wrong, I have no problem with muslims, but its too much too fast, and quite frankly muslims are particularly problematic because in many ways muslims are programmed to avoid integration.

Now here I am saying that I believe mass immigration is going to create deep social divisions.
Muslims cannot integrate and demand that their culture and ideas be given equal space.

We have tried this experiment in the past, over hundreds of years with the jews of Europe.

We are going to slowly return to that situation, and quite frankly the easiest and least painful solution for everyone is to understand and avoid going through the kind of thing we have already gone through with once with jews in Europe.

Who wants a repeat of Hitlers Antisemitism and violence?

The masses are responding, Trump and his ilk in Europe is just the start of a very deep and likely long and violent response to muslim immigration.


The solution is to stop immigration.

No one wants violence, and the masses cannot take on too much change, and quite frankly we have already seen too much change in the west.

I hate sounding like a racist, but thats really not what I am. I simply recognize a tsunami that is coming and I want to do everything I can to minimize the damage.


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 16 December 2018 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by Rock

None of those people, are opposed to integration. The Atheist and agnostic still possess a christian mind.


Rock, they are fundamentally different from Christians by a MILE. They expect YOU to integrate into THEIR society. Look at most agnostics and atheists that are vocal. They expect Christians to start complying with Western secular standards. And the remark about atheists and agnostics still possessing a "Christian" mind is ludicrous. If anything, as time moves forward, more and more Christians are adopting an atheist/agnostic mindset - not the other way around. Atheists and agnostics don't have rules against promiscuity, adultery, gambling, drinking, smoking, etc. Some atheists are even militant toward any formal religion. This is hardly a "Christian" mindset.

Originally posted by The Rock



I am not opposed to christian and jewish (historically christian, not converts) immigrants from any part of the world.


Neither am I - nor am I opposed to immigrants of ANY faith.

Originally posted by The Rock


Non Christian Asian immigrants will quickly change behaviour and views to fit in with the host countries.


I agree with this. They assimilate perhaps the best. Unless names like Harold and Charlie are traditional, ancient Chinese names . They assimilate perfectly fine in the United States, I agree there - but it may be a cultural predisposition they are accustomed to, which you seem to have hinted at yourself later in your post.

Originally posted by The Rock

]
Non Christian South Asians are far more resistant to integration whether they are Sikh or Hindus. Im less convinced of the value of Hindu immigrants to this country.


I see this too - which I would've pointed out to you had you not brought it up yourself. It seems to be a trend in my experience that they want very little to do with the Western population and more to do with the Western dollars. Of course there are exceptions, but I've seen this a lot. But their children end up assimilating with American culture anyway - so in the end it's just like with every other immigrant group. I've had a bunch of Hindu friends in school - most of them Hindu by "name" only, but one of them particularly religious (wouldn't eat meat). All of them enjoyed American sports, American pastimes, American foods, hung out with Americans, and pretty much were just like any other American.

Originally posted by The Rock


Middle Eastern and South Asian Muslims I think are just too alien to live in our societies.


Here is where I disagree. I come from an Italian section, and Arabs lived amongst us, sometimes even claiming to be Italian and most of the time passing for Italian just fine. Religion was hardly ever brought up - they were just as secular as most Italian-Americans. They hung out with the Italians, they dressed like the Italians, they even had names like Italians. The ones from Spanish neighborhoods likewise acted like they were Spanish. Even the "foreign" Arabs were readily assimilating with American culture. South Asians a little less so when it came to the ones that migrated here, but the ones born and raised here assimilate without a problem. I'm married to a Pakistani, and her family observes the 4th of July, Thanksgiving, and American cultural occasions like baby showers, etc. and many of them were born and raised in Pakistan. The ones born and raised here (even among others in the community and outside the family) are no different from most other American kids - they play basketball, go to university, get married and have children, buy homes, and a lot of them have within their close social circles white, black and hispanic friends - all of whom are tied together mainly by American culture (sports, occasions, jobs, etc).

This part seems like you either have a very different breed of Middle Easterners and South Asians in Canada, or you're just not exposed to them on a personal level.

Originally posted by The Rock


There are deep fundamental differences that cannot be bridged. You mentioned Linda Sarsour, and you are right to mention her, because here is a born and raised American whose allegiance is primarily to the Ummah and who truly would be better off in a Khilafat.


I think less with the "Ummah" and more with "Palestine". That liberal guy I used to argue with on here brought up a good point - that perhaps she was using the Leftist agenda to help her own people in Palestine against Israel. I don't see any Muslims that care about the ummah so much that they're making a big deal over the million Chinese Muslims being held in concentration camps. Seems most of the Muslims (and non-Muslims) that take part in "activism" do it based on either personal agendas (e.g., my family in Palestine needs my help) or on things that are really not that big of a deal. The Chinese Muslims are a significant part of our Ummah, but I don't see any activists taking to the streets. Do you? Point is, Sarsour shouldn't be seen as a typical Muslim putting the Ummah first - she's a Left-wing activist who happens to be Muslim. What's so different about what she's fighting for than what some other transgender, half-Jewish half-black Leftist is fighting for? It's all Leftist propaganda, regardless of the religion of the activist.

Originally posted by The Rock


The question for every muslim parent living in the west ought to be, is my child going to make the choices I made?

The answer is , there is a very good chance your child may choose as Linda Sarsour has to hate her own country and compatriots.


I can only speak for my own family - my kids are not only in love with God Almighty, but also love their country. I think I know what you mean, though - as I did see some Muslims who identify themselves as sort of "visitors" as opposed to as being "American". It might be the way they're treated as outsiders, perhaps, or it might just be they have just little love for their new countries, I don't know. Perhaps a little of both. Allah knows best.

By the way, do you consider yourself a Canadian or a Christian first?



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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven


Posted By: Magister
Date Posted: 16 December 2018 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by The_Rock

Originally posted by Magister


The US was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It was founded on secular principles. Many of our founding fathers were themselves Deists, not Christians. Even one of our nation's earliest documents makes it clear that the US is NOT a Christian nation or a nation following any other religion.


This isnt about theology but the culture of Christianity.


Now, if you're talking about culture, cultures change and there's not much we can do about it. Just 100 years ago, it was a matter of fact that men beat their wives - it was joked about in advertisements. Just a few decades ago, the legal marriageable age for females was 6 years old in some states. Smoking has went out of fashion. Other subcultures rose up. Cultures change, and we need to accept that fact.


Cultures do change, however, not all change is good.
I am trying to actively advocate against a cultural change that I think would be bad for our nations.

Dont get me wrong, I have no problem with muslims, but its too much too fast, and quite frankly muslims are particularly problematic because in many ways muslims are programmed to avoid integration.

Now here I am saying that I believe mass immigration is going to create deep social divisions.
Muslims cannot integrate and demand that their culture and ideas be given equal space.

We have tried this experiment in the past, over hundreds of years with the jews of Europe.

We are going to slowly return to that situation, and quite frankly the easiest and least painful solution for everyone is to understand and avoid going through the kind of thing we have already gone through with once with jews in Europe.

Who wants a repeat of Hitlers Antisemitism and violence?

The masses are responding, Trump and his ilk in Europe is just the start of a very deep and likely long and violent response to muslim immigration.


The solution is to stop immigration.

No one wants violence, and the masses cannot take on too much change, and quite frankly we have already seen too much change in the west.

I hate sounding like a racist, but thats really not what I am. I simply recognize a tsunami that is coming and I want to do everything I can to minimize the damage.


I agree with the notion that too much immigration too fast is a horrible thing. What's happening in Europe is a mess, and we have it also, but not from the Muslim world, but rather from the Christian world (South America, mainly Mexico). I have no problem with immigration, but when you have too many coming from impoverished parts of the world, it starts to create new problems. Influx of gangs and crime, sub-cultures sprouting up alongside mainstream cultures, etc.

However, I have to disagree with you that Muslims are programmed to avoid integration. This is unheard of. If Muslims click together more than with outsiders, it's likely simply because they have more in common. Not unlike immigrants sticking with their own because of the language or customs. Serbians, I'm sure, have their own social clubs, communities, neighborhoods, etc. There's nothing in Islam that prevents us from integrating with non-Muslims, so long as we don't abandon our religions to do so.

Rock, I don't think your problem is with Muslims. Your problem is with fellow countrymen that are left-leaning extremists. Poor people will go to a better setting almost always - it's human nature to take that opportunity when it comes. Can't blame them. They'd be fools not to come to the West when the doors are open for them to swarm in. It's the politicians and Left-leaning extremists who don't want borders that should be blamed.

I'm on your side when it comes to the massive immigrant waves. I'd say this for any group - too much is not good. And eventually it's going to cause a backlash by the majority. I told my wife that I foretell a Hitler-like situation happening in a Western nation in the near future, and that instead of Jews, this time, it's going to be the other Middle Eastern white meat - the Muslims that end up in concentration camps. (Maybe Mexicans and South Americans in the US, though - as we don't have a giant influx of Middle Easterners here the way Europe has had it; instead, our country's complaints revolve around "caravans" from south of the border.) But ultimately, it's not the fault of the migrants in the end, they're just taking the opportunity given to them. It's the fault of those in power and those who influence decision-making. Those with radical views. I am all for secured borders, controlled immigration.

And the least the migrants can do is assimilate with the environment or just be quiet enough that no one gets bothered by their presence.

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Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven



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